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"College Rankings Losing Their Relevance" (news item)
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Date: July 18th, 2007 6:55 PM Author: tantric new version international law enforcement agency College rankings losing their relevance
By Stephanie Lee Correspondent
USC said "yes" to Kristy Gausman. So did the University of Notre Dame and Claremont McKenna College.
But the 18-year-old senior at La Salle High School fell in love with Kenyon College, a rigorous but tiny, lesser-known liberal arts college in rural Ohio. Its small classes and friendly atmosphere were more important to her, Gausman said, than Kenyon's position on U.S. News & World Report's 20-year-old ranking of the nation's best colleges.
"I don't really care how much alums give," Gausman said, referring to part of the criteria that U.S. News & World Report uses to determines its rankings. "I care about what students think."
Last month, Kenyon and dozens of other liberal arts colleges - including Scripps, Barnard and Sarah Lawrence colleges - announced they no longer will participate in some or all aspects of the magazine's survey.
Now, some college-bound students say that decision underscores the rankings' irrelevance.
Since it began more than two decades ago, U.S. News & World Report's annual survey has yielded the best-known rankings of American colleges and universities. Traditionally, the lists have provided useful data about schools while heightening the visibility of colleges that may be academically strong but not widely known.
But some students say the same information is readily available from a wealth of other sources such as counselors, relatives, books, colleges themselves and the Internet.
Ian McCarthy, 18, will join Gausman at Kenyon. The Polytechnic School graduate said he applied for early decision after poring through numerous college guidebooks and visiting the campus.
"In the last few years, I think that consumers and potential applicants have become a little smarter, doing more research and realizing one list is not necessarily going to give you all the information," McCarthy said.
Meredith Reynolds, a private admissions counselor in La Ca ada Flintridge, pointed out that schools send mailings to thousands of potential applicants every year.
"The hardest thing about college," she said, "is there's too much information about college."
The presidents of Kenyon and Scripps - and other members of the Annapolis Group of liberal arts colleges - said they will not participate in at least the peer-assessment survey.
In the survey, administrators rank their academics compared to those of competing institutions. The only subjective aspect of the rankings, the peer-assessment survey counts for 25 percent of an institution's score, according to U.S. News & World Report's Web site.
But other Annapolis Group members will continue participating in the rankings for now. They include Occidental College in Eagle Rock, which appears this year at No. 36 in the magazine's rankings.
"Families \ have as much information about colleges as they can possibly obtain," William Tingley, Occidental College's vice president of admissions and financial aid, said of the rankings.
Some students say U.S. News & World Report's rankings can be a valuable starting point.
As a senior at South Pasadena High School, 18-year-old Hai Dai divided the top 50 schools into four categories, then chose a few from each tier.
He ended up applying to more than 20 schools, including Johns Hopkins University, Caltech and seven University of California campuses. This fall, he will be at UCLA.
But Dai also said that he finds that college rankings are more valuable for parents than students because they provide context. He said when it comes to a lesser-known college, he often hears, "Where is it on the ranking?"
When future high school seniors decide where to apply, their choices may determine whether the colleges' decision to withdraw affects their visibility to applicants.
Westridge alumna Terry Chi, 18, said she thinks Barnard - a women's college in New York City, currently ranked at No. 26 - will continue to attract applicants, partly because of its affiliation with Columbia University.
But not appearing on a list won't necessarily make prestige a thing of the past, she said.
"People will still want their kids to go to Harvard or Yale," she said. |
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Date: July 18th, 2007 7:06 PM Author: racy trust fund sandwich Subject: If were only true I wish the sentiment in this article were true, but sadly it is not true in today's status conscious society. While the vast amount of information available to parents and students rehgarding colleges is extremely helpful, the "rankings" as determined by magazines or college counsellors or education rating institutions carry on on great deal of weight-- particularly for parents with little knowledge or time to do their own research on colleges. I have found thay even among well-educated parents, the quest for prestige leads many to ask the question "Where is this college ranked by US News"without regard to the assumptions or variables used in the calculations. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8403506) |
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Date: July 18th, 2007 7:18 PM Author: tantric new version international law enforcement agency Subject: I agree. What we are getting is a lot of wishful thinking assertions on behalf of the 2nd tier LAC's, which are most heavily invested in the effort to undermine the significance of the USNews rankings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8403544) |
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Date: July 18th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: Offensive site gay wizard They're insecure and hypocrites. If they were ranked higher, they wouldn't be complaining. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8404068) |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 9:13 AM Author: drunken wine private investor i agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8410884) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 9:42 AM Author: Razzmatazz bawdyhouse toaster Subject: I wouldnt call Barnard a 2nd tier LAC, though usnwr would put it there (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8406031) |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 10:39 AM Author: drunken wine private investor they eliminated tiers for lacs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8411159) |
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Date: July 18th, 2007 8:09 PM Author: Alcoholic Market "some students say the same information is readily available from a wealth of other sources such as counselors, relatives, books, colleges themselves and the Internet."
Understand, bullshit like this prevents everyone but the upper class from succeeding. Some of us do not have relatives who know about random tiny private colleges. Infomration transaprency is important. Whenever someone does not want to share their information, I would worry. US news does not make anyone follow their rankings.
Furthermore, if something other than US news is important to you, such as small class size, or some other variable, you can often use US news to choose your college based on the variable you are interested in. US news helps people who otherwise would not have the information necessary to make knowledgeable decisions regarding what college to attend. |
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Date: July 18th, 2007 9:31 PM Author: Offensive site gay wizard Doesn't the ranking give a general indicator of the colleges reputation in comparison to other colleges? And isn't peer assesment score usually considred an accurate indicator of a colleges reputation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8404081) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 5:49 AM Author: Poppy Sound Barrier Pisswyrm I think what you just said is:
ranking=reputation=peer assessment score.
You wouldn't like US News's ranking then, it *only* weights peer assessment score 25%. |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 9:11 AM Author: drunken wine private investor i don't care how much alums give but overall endowment is important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8410881) |
Date: July 18th, 2007 7:24 PM Author: unholy public bath queen of the night Kenyon > USC, Notre Dame for quite a lot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8403560) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 6:09 AM Author: Henna provocative nursing home becky Unless you're a Catholic fucktard I can't imagine the attraction of Notre Dame. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8405923) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 8:09 AM Author: racy trust fund sandwich Actually, the most useless part of u news survey is the peer assessement, as it is entirely subjective and based on ingrained views of college administrators that may be out of date.it is likely that colleges urge thier own adninistrators to rate thier own college very highly and to diss the competitors. If US news would remove peer assessment and add some measurements based on "outputs" from the colleges, this could improve thier data and methodology. For instance, number of truman,fullbright, rhodes, etc scholars graduating, grad school and professional school placement, pulitizer prizes awarded to students and faculty, etc. The problem with US news is that it only looks at "inputs" of a college--how much money it has, caliber of students-- but not how much the colleges produce in scholarship and academic/intellectual achievement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8405952) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 9:12 AM Author: unholy public bath queen of the night Self-fulling prophecy. It's a set of standards that ensure only a set number of schools will meet. Further, it damns state schools even more. They are not meant to be a Ponomoa or Antioch and produce 30% of their classes going for a PhD. Is the worth of a school teacher to keep the economy of a small town in western Michigan alive worth less than yet another PhD in Literature from Carleton? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8405996) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 12:10 PM Author: Poppy Sound Barrier Pisswyrm A lot of people agree with you about the peer assessment. Personally, I think it's interesting to see what they came up with, but must be taken with a grain of salt for the reasons you mentioned, and others. But of course assigning weights to this and all the other parameters is hardly a science.
I don't have an issue with US News, I just think it's too bad that other rankers have not equally suceeded, What we're left with is just one set of opinions about what to include and how to weight them. When really there are multitudes of equally valid perspectives on this, that would result in some differences. It's too bad the public won't see that. But it's not the fault of US News, unless they engaged in some anti-competitive maneuver I don't know about.
I heard one of these college presidents say they don't want to surpress data they just don't want to do actual work for some profit-making entity to make a buck from. They provide data anyway, but the peer assessment is not something they otherwise need to come up with, so they are in effect doing it solely for US News to sell magazines, with no cut in it for themselves. As if they were working for US News. For free.They would willingly provide data to a non-profit third-party sponsored by a higher education entity, and a movement in this regard is afoot.
Personally I don't think I would have a problem if US News payed samples of faculty to get its peer assessment, instead of expecting college administrations to provide this to them for free. Disconnection with the actual institutions might even make the assessments more honest. But I've read numerous posts to the effect of" yeah I'm filling this in about 100 institutions, but truth is I only know anything beyond what you know about 5 of them. And what I know pertains to their graduate program, not undergrad"; so still the value must be taken somewhat lightly I think.
Rhetoric aside, yes they don't like a "one size fits all ranking, but the only thing they're not doing is completing the peer assessment. They still produce plenty of data, and will still be ranked by US News. |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 9:17 AM Author: drunken wine private investor good point about the prizes although i think it should include only nobel, pulitzer, fulbright, rhodes & marshall; not every obscure award, and you know squabbles over that are inevitable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8410891) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 1:23 PM Author: Violet stag film famous landscape painting this is clearly wrong (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8406728) |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 9:19 AM Author: drunken wine private investor i agree if you mean christian. i don't see it as jewish or muslim magnet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8410905) |
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Date: July 20th, 2007 9:13 AM Author: drunken wine private investor save your spin. "quite a lot" don't know what kenyon is, even the article admitted it is not well-known. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8410883) |
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Date: July 19th, 2007 11:58 AM Author: brass brunch old irish cottage If your school is ranked highly, then USNWR rankings are the greatest thing to ever happen to education. If not, then they're a crock of shit lacking legitmacy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=660328&forum_id=1#8406400) |