\
  The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
BackRefresh Options Favorite

Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
vivacious dilemma
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  05/29/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  06/03/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  06/08/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/01/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/03/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/06/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/08/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/13/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/14/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/16/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/20/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/24/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/29/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  07/30/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  08/04/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  08/10/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/11/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/11/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/11/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/11/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/12/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/12/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/13/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/13/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/16/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/16/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/17/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/18/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/23/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/24/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/24/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/24/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/26/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/26/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/26/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/27/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  11/28/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/02/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/04/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/04/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/07/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/08/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/08/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/09/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/10/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/16/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/18/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/21/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/22/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/24/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/28/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/28/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  12/29/25
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  01/04/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  01/06/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  01/12/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  01/14/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  01/20/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  04/23/26
...
sadistic chad orchestra pit
  04/23/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
Olive area
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
Peach adventurous range ladyboy
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
Olive area
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
Peach adventurous range ladyboy
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
Olive area
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
balding comical space puppy
  07/01/25
...
diverse headpube dopamine
  07/13/25
...
spectacular house travel guidebook
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
carnelian lay
  05/29/25
cq
brass effete potus
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
Territorial philosopher-king
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
balding comical space puppy
  07/02/25
...
Indecent wild friendly grandma
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
tan razzle institution
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
jade splenetic shrine main people
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
Fragrant Disgusting Dysfunction Police Squad
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
talented at-the-ready organic girlfriend
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
Rebellious mint round eye ceo
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
talented at-the-ready organic girlfriend
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
Fragrant Disgusting Dysfunction Police Squad
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
sapphire set jew
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
sapphire set jew
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: vivacious dilemma

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: sadistic chad orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: Olive area

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: Peach adventurous range ladyboy

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: Olive area

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: Peach adventurous range ladyboy

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969954)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: Olive area

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48971066)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: balding comical space puppy

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065184)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: diverse headpube dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098592)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: spectacular house travel guidebook



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098608)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: carnelian lay

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48970037)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: brass effete potus

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48970041)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: Territorial philosopher-king

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48985033)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: balding comical space puppy

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065206)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: Indecent wild friendly grandma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518664)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: tan razzle institution

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48997602)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: jade splenetic shrine main people

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065026)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: Fragrant Disgusting Dysfunction Police Squad

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49105022)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: talented at-the-ready organic girlfriend

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421865)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: Rebellious mint round eye ceo

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49458174)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: talented at-the-ready organic girlfriend

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49495273)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: Fragrant Disgusting Dysfunction Police Squad

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518563)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: sapphire set jew

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838409)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: sapphire set jew

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838410)