\
  The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
BackRefresh Options Favorite

Wife & I Cannot Afford to Buy a House

This is a big problem. We both work. We don't have kids. Yet...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
move away from the city centre and use trains/boats to commu...
Dun friendly grandma police squad
  04/25/14
Hopefully u will not be commute cost pwn3d but Titcr
arousing misanthropic home jap
  04/26/14
The government backs the vast majority of home loans these d...
Maniacal amber lay messiness
  04/25/14
Fair point, but before that happens, the Government will hav...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
You obv live in a coastal city. Move to Houston, Atlanta J...
Amethyst dilemma legend
  04/25/14
right: http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm ...
Swashbuckling bat-shit-crazy bbw preventive strike
  04/25/14
I live in one of these cities. Single family homes in a reas...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
Check out fannie mae and their program.
Dark sneaky criminal theater
  04/25/14
DEM PROGRAMZ
Rusted laughsome shrine skinny woman
  04/26/14
The problem is likely your definition of reasonable.
Shaky Pale Wrinkle
  04/25/14
You can't afford a house in Jax? Make more money you fucking...
garnet talented kitty cat
  04/25/14
Houston and Atlanta are going nuts right now. The inventory ...
180 field
  04/25/14
This seems odd. In the current low interest rate environmen...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
LOL.
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
I live in a major eastern city, and my mortgage payment is s...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
Our rent is $1,675/month for a 4-2 that is a painful commute...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
Wait it out. Prices are likely to go down than up.
Ivory abode
  04/25/14
Fuck 20% down. Do that for your second home. Depending on yo...
outnumbered bawdyhouse hissy fit
  04/25/14
Don't be a whiny bitch. If you think that house price is go...
autistic deer antler ticket booth
  04/25/14
"Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willin...
Vivacious international law enforcement agency
  04/26/14
...
jet-lagged athletic conference
  04/26/14
just do negative equity when rates go up and house values go...
Ivory abode
  04/25/14
Dude, you still need the down payment. If the OP is only abl...
learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage
  04/25/14
FHA is 3.5% down. You can also find 90% LTV conventional lo...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
I think you can get 5% down on conventional if your credit i...
Dark sneaky criminal theater
  04/25/14
That was not my experience with the houses I have bought...
learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage
  04/25/14
Probably true I haven't checked in a while. I mean this guy...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
I am not familiar with FHA. Seems like a bad idea to buy ...
learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage
  04/25/14
As long as he has stable income it would be dumb not to buy ...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
Actually, I couldn't afford a house a couple of years ago. I...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
You are clueless. Do you know what PMI is? If you're doing F...
Ivory abode
  04/25/14
No. The FHA loans provides subsidized mortgage insurance. ...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
PMI is approx 60 a month per 100K
fantasy-prone provocative stage
  04/25/14
Lmao u fucking idiot
fantasy-prone provocative stage
  04/25/14
LOL "uncertainty that comes with renting"
fantasy-prone provocative stage
  04/25/14
YOU MADE BAD LIFE CHOICES AND DESERVE TO DIE.
milky mind-boggling theater stage candlestick maker
  04/25/14
Harsh, but fair.
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
...
Jobs
  12/16/25
Move to real America and this won't be a problem. But, I bet...
Sapphire histrionic plaza philosopher-king
  04/25/14
Titcr
fantasy-prone provocative stage
  04/25/14
It's not about the culture jackass. There are no jobs in rea...
180 field
  04/25/14
If you have a mortgage, it is basically just as uncertain to...
citrine erotic trailer park mother
  04/25/14
Well, with a fixed rate you have locked in monthly payment. ...
Fuchsia comical theatre telephone
  04/25/14
bro needs to move to a place with rent control
citrine erotic trailer park mother
  04/25/14
What do I need to do to start the pre-approval process for a...
rambunctious locus
  04/25/14
pre approval is flame. just go to a mortgage broker and have...
Dun friendly grandma police squad
  04/25/14
LOL...no. That's prequalification. Pre-approval is general...
Dark sneaky criminal theater
  04/26/14
say what ? i never did any of that and still sent multiple o...
Dun friendly grandma police squad
  04/26/14
Yeah...but then you're sending contingent offers based on lo...
Dark sneaky criminal theater
  04/26/14
Start off easy ... go visit two or three different new const...
outnumbered bawdyhouse hissy fit
  04/26/14
Minimal savings, zero family help, live in NY/SF/DC area. A...
Topaz area
  04/26/14
Just rent a house from an individual owner. I owned before ...
Exciting sepia old irish cottage azn
  04/26/14
Don't buy a house. Rent and save money.
contagious crimson whorehouse
  04/26/14
This is almost always wrong on the timescale of a human life
soul-stirring selfie pistol
  04/26/14
One other thought: if you are still in your 20s or even earl...
learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage
  04/26/14
Lawyers are less likely than average to change cities given ...
aromatic chest-beating market
  04/26/14


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:32 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

This is a big problem. We both work. We don't have kids. Yet, we cannot afford to buy a house. I would like to because I'm tired of all of the uncertainty that comes with renting, but the costs are just out of control. Why is housing so fucking expensive?

Further, the more expensive home ownership gets, the less appealing it becomes overall. I'm starting to think it's a pointless exercise and I may just kill myself.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447523)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:55 PM
Author: Dun friendly grandma police squad

move away from the city centre and use trains/boats to commute. its very doable if you know what youre doing. i live out in the boonies but can take the train in as the rail line is close to my place.

cheap place, decent plot, good life and i can get into the city without much effort daily.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25448793)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:52 AM
Author: arousing misanthropic home jap

Hopefully u will not be commute cost pwn3d but Titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451013)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:33 PM
Author: Maniacal amber lay messiness

The government backs the vast majority of home loans these days, artificially inflating housing prices. The 30-year fixed rate mortgage wouldn't exist without government-backed mortgages. You won't have housing prices collapse until the federal government's finances collapse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447532)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:36 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

Fair point, but before that happens, the Government will have already appropriated most of my wealth and I'll have lost my jerb in the deflating economy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447555)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:35 PM
Author: Amethyst dilemma legend

You obv live in a coastal city. Move to Houston, Atlanta Jacksonville Phoenix and you'll find a nice place.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447546)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:37 PM
Author: Swashbuckling bat-shit-crazy bbw preventive strike

right:

http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm

Home Prices by Region

Last Updated: 4/7/2014

The median price in the Midwest rose to $140,900, up from $139,800 in January and it rose 8.6 percent from the one year earlier.

In the South, the median price increased to $163,400 in February, up from $159,900 the month before and up 8.3 percent from the previous year.

In the Northwest, the price fell to $237,800, down from January's $241,200. Still the median is up 1.5 percent from the year before.

Prices in the West reached $279,400, up from $272,200 in January. The median price was up 18.0 percent from February 2013.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447559)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:39 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

I live in one of these cities. Single family homes in a reasonable neighborhood are exorbitantly priced.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447568)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:47 PM
Author: Dark sneaky criminal theater

Check out fannie mae and their program.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447595)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:55 AM
Author: Rusted laughsome shrine skinny woman

DEM PROGRAMZ

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451025)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:24 PM
Author: Shaky Pale Wrinkle

The problem is likely your definition of reasonable.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447748)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:35 PM
Author: garnet talented kitty cat

You can't afford a house in Jax? Make more money you fucking poor

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447808)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 11:02 PM
Author: 180 field

Houston and Atlanta are going nuts right now. The inventory is very low and prices are rising 20% year over year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25448826)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:35 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

This seems odd. In the current low interest rate environment unless you live in the bay area your mortgage won't be much more than your current rent. Plus with FHA loan you will only have to put down a very small amount.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447547)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:39 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

LOL.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447570)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:42 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

I live in a major eastern city, and my mortgage payment is significantly less than my rent was before I bought. I put down 20%, but the FHA loan isn't a bad option at all for a first time buyer. If the economy goes to shit you can always just walk away.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447576)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:51 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

Our rent is $1,675/month for a 4-2 that is a painful commute and in a shitty neighborhood. Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willing to buy in would be $550-650k. We don't have the $110k-$135k in cash for that 20% down payment at the moment, and it would probably take us almost 3 years to accumulate that given our retirement contributions. By that time, the prices will probably be $800k+. More significantly, the mortgage would consume so much more of our monthly take home it just wouldn't be worth it. I think we need to downsize and find cheap rentals and say fuck buying although my wife really wants a house. She'll probably force me to buy. Fuck my ass.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447617)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:52 PM
Author: Ivory abode

Wait it out. Prices are likely to go down than up.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447620)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:57 PM
Author: outnumbered bawdyhouse hissy fit

Fuck 20% down. Do that for your second home. Depending on your credit, you could do 10% down with another 10% as a second mortgage with payments less than mortgage insurance. Or, go FHA. 3% down or whatever and pay the MI FOR 5 years.

To sum: stop whining like a little bitch. You can buy a house if you want to so long as your credit score is like 630 or higher.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447638)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:17 PM
Author: autistic deer antler ticket booth

Don't be a whiny bitch. If you think that house price is going to increase $250k in 3yrs then buy it now with as little down as you want.

If you believe the naysayers and think it's going to drop then you don't want to buy now even if you could pay cash



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447730)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:50 AM
Author: Vivacious international law enforcement agency

"Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willing to buy in would be $550-600K."

There's your fucking problem hoss. Adjust your expectations. There are PLENTY of nice places in ATL/Houston for half as much.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451010)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:02 PM
Author: jet-lagged athletic conference



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451319)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:40 PM
Author: Ivory abode

just do negative equity when rates go up and house values go down

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447571)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:44 PM
Author: learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage

Dude, you still need the down payment. If the OP is only able to save $10k a year and needs $60k-$80k for the down payment on the sort of house he wants, he has a bit of a wait.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447580)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:45 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

FHA is 3.5% down. You can also find 90% LTV conventional loans.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447587)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:48 PM
Author: Dark sneaky criminal theater

I think you can get 5% down on conventional if your credit is even average.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447602)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage

That was not my experience with the houses I have bought...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447614)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:54 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

Probably true I haven't checked in a while. I mean this guy missed the bottom, but I think it is still a reasonable time to buy. The identical condo in my unit to the one I bought in 2010 just sold for $80k ore than my purchase price. Best ROI I have ever gotten. Obviously prices could drop tomorrow, but I doubt it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447625)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage

I am not familiar with FHA.

Seems like a bad idea to buy a house if you can't save up even a 10% down payment.

Can OP raise $40k?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447607)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:55 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

As long as he has stable income it would be dumb not to buy now and lock in the current low rates. He is actually a few years late already.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447632)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:58 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

Actually, I couldn't afford a house a couple of years ago. I got married and dramatically improved my financial outcome. I didn't 'miss' anything. I just wasn't born a boomer or come from the womb of a rich-as-fuck boomer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447642)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: Ivory abode

You are clueless. Do you know what PMI is? If you're doing FHA in the first place and paying the bare minimum down payment, PMI alone will likely make your monthly cost prohibitively esspensive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447610)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:54 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

No. The FHA loans provides subsidized mortgage insurance. It isn't very expensive at all.

For a 300k mortgage the FHA insurance is like 150 a month.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447628)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:33 PM
Author: fantasy-prone provocative stage

PMI is approx 60 a month per 100K

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447791)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:46 PM
Author: fantasy-prone provocative stage

Lmao u fucking idiot

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447591)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:43 PM
Author: fantasy-prone provocative stage

LOL "uncertainty that comes with renting"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447578)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:45 PM
Author: milky mind-boggling theater stage candlestick maker

YOU MADE BAD LIFE CHOICES AND DESERVE TO DIE.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447588)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:52 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

Harsh, but fair.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447619)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 3:42 PM
Author: Jobs



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#49514474)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:55 PM
Author: Sapphire histrionic plaza philosopher-king

Move to real America and this won't be a problem. But, I bet you would miss all the culture, right faggot?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447630)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:33 PM
Author: fantasy-prone provocative stage

Titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447794)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 11:06 PM
Author: 180 field

It's not about the culture jackass. There are no jobs in real America. All the white collar jobs are in the urban core of big cities. How the fuck are you going to commute to your jerb in downtown Atlanta living in fucking Augusta?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25448843)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:05 PM
Author: citrine erotic trailer park mother

If you have a mortgage, it is basically just as uncertain to own (because you really are just a renter with upside).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447676)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:07 PM
Author: Fuchsia comical theatre telephone

Well, with a fixed rate you have locked in monthly payment. Its basically a very long term lease with an upside.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447684)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:08 PM
Author: citrine erotic trailer park mother

bro needs to move to a place with rent control

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25447687)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:28 PM
Author: rambunctious locus

What do I need to do to start the pre-approval process for a mortgage or is that just flame?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25448636)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:56 PM
Author: Dun friendly grandma police squad

pre approval is flame. just go to a mortgage broker and have him to an assessment. then divide by two and away you go.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25448796)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 10:19 AM
Author: Dark sneaky criminal theater

LOL...no. That's prequalification. Pre-approval is generally needed before you can make offers and involves sending in shit like W2s, pay stubs, bank statements, and them looking over assets and debt, etc.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450742)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:08 AM
Author: Dun friendly grandma police squad

say what ? i never did any of that and still sent multiple offers etc and bought the house over the phone.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450897)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: Dark sneaky criminal theater

Yeah...but then you're sending contingent offers based on loan approval. You're in a better bargaining position if you have the pre-approval and you can close quicker and sellers like that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450900)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 10:25 AM
Author: outnumbered bawdyhouse hissy fit

Start off easy ... go visit two or three different new construction developments in your area. Homes, townhouses, whatever. Talk to the realtor/sales people for the development. You'll get your feet wet that way as well as start to learn what features you value, as well as understanding pricing in your area. Then, if you decide to want to buy an existing home, research and talk to buyers agents in your area. Talk with a few and choose the one you connect best with. Buyers agents can discuss your financing options, and they often times have folks that they know they can recommend. You don't want to go through this alone.

SHORT ANSWER - If buying new construction, you'll go with the financing tied with the building. If buying a resale, get a buyer's realtor first.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450750)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: Topaz area

Minimal savings, zero family help, live in NY/SF/DC area. Am I renting 4 lyfe?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450901)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:44 AM
Author: Exciting sepia old irish cottage azn

Just rent a house from an individual owner. I owned before and am now a very happy renter, for a bunch of reasons:

-Maintenance is a big time suck.

-If you're renting from an individual rather than a big company they will be thrilled to have you as a tenant and are unlikely to increase your rent that much over time. They will also be likelier to give you a good deal on rent than you would get from a big company or in the home purchase market.

-You can have as much house as you need at any particular point - no need to get extra bedrooms because of future plans for extra kids.

-Plowing your down payment $ into dividend-paying stocks is way easier and since stocks appreciate more over the long haul than real estate foregoing the RE tax/financing advantages isn't that big a deal. Plus if you're really counting on a house to fund a comfortable retirement you should probably not be exposing yourself to the downside risk of the 2014 housing market.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25450994)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:59 AM
Author: contagious crimson whorehouse

Don't buy a house. Rent and save money.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451035)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: soul-stirring selfie pistol

This is almost always wrong on the timescale of a human life

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451049)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:15 PM
Author: learning disabled razzle-dazzle spot blood rage

One other thought: if you are still in your 20s or even early 30s renting May still be a better plan.

Why?

Well, I am betting you are still moving around between jobs. As a result you are likely to change cities.

Remote rental of the property or selling and then buying both have transaction costs that are not insignificant.

Just something to think about.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451371)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:38 PM
Author: aromatic chest-beating market

Lawyers are less likely than average to change cities given their licensing requirements and the nature of business development.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2)#25451457)