\
  The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
BackRefresh Options Favorite

Manhattan judge tosses Murder 1 for Luigi Mangione in state case

Ljl New York is so fucked up they can't even get this guy to...
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
Why no murder 1? Edit: just googled. NY requires an aggra...
hyperactive black halford mother
  09/16/25
wtf is more aggravating than premeditation?
180 nibblets
  09/16/25
You have to kill a cop or mock/threaten/defame a legislator....
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
ljl
180 nibblets
  09/16/25
...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
...
milky big-titted senate digit ratio
  09/16/25
torture also gets it iirc
blathering new version
  09/16/25
Terrorism I guess? Dunno, I didn't write the law.
hyperactive black halford mother
  09/16/25
NY murder 1 is very narrow and was an overcharge in the firs...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
how is a planned political assassination not murder one?
Flushed french chef
  09/16/25
every state defines murder 1 differently. which category do ...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
terrorism but the laws are pretty stupid if a planned pol...
Flushed french chef
  09/16/25
explain your argument how murdering a CEO is terrorism: h...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
I don't see it fitting the NY definition of terrorism for th...
Khaki Gas Station
  09/16/25
Right it's not there. It's a really dumb statute. It's obvio...
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
...
Khaki Gas Station
  09/16/25
...
Flushed french chef
  09/16/25
"affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder&q...
Magical Naked Deer Antler Doctorate
  09/16/25
>-- affected the conduct of the police since they had to ...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
it can't plausibly be any of them, including not the terrori...
Khaki Gas Station
  09/16/25
Incredibly retarded statute
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
actually it's kinda retarded that premeditation & delibe...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
are you a lawyer? premeditation proves intent. without evide...
180 nibblets
  09/16/25
...
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
are YOU a lawyer? the jury can infer intent. evidence of pre...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
cr, intentional murder has to be at the very least LWOP beca...
milky big-titted senate digit ratio
  09/16/25
also, the concept of premed & delib is pretty retarded. ...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
no he's right gradations of murder are retarded we already ...
Frozen magenta partner forum
  09/16/25
non-lawyer here, cr although i can see the utility in bre...
milky big-titted senate digit ratio
  09/16/25
wtf? change your name Date: September 16th, 2025 7:30 PM ...
rough-skinned hospital party of the first part
  09/16/25
jurisprudence tp doesn't take l*wyers seriously so i had to ...
milky big-titted senate digit ratio
  09/16/25
I was wondering if Utah might do that to Tyler. Did they rai...
Sable low-t school cafeteria prole
  09/16/25
So Alvin Bragg is too right wing for NYC courts now *blan...
fragrant athletic conference affirmative action
  09/16/25
ESL? No one here lives on BlueSky care to break it down f...
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
Whoops!
Sable low-t school cafeteria prole
  09/16/25
Putting confirmed murderers on the street is practically a p...
fishy anal tanning salon
  09/16/25
The only reason liberals put up with this is that it 100% ne...
Burgundy immigrant space
  09/16/25
...
milky big-titted senate digit ratio
  09/16/25
It clearly had a political motive, hence it was terrorism. ...
contagious walnut half-breed plaza
  09/16/25
the statute doesnt say "political motive"
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
it uses the definition of politics: influence the policy ...
contagious walnut half-breed plaza
  09/16/25
A CEO is a private citizen. HTH.
Heady unholy hall
  09/16/25
...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
(idiot who has never heard of legislative intent)
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
(xo 2025) theres a 12 page written opinion on this issue. 50...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
There was no evidence presented that defendant made any dema...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
The defendant's apparent objective, as stated in his writi...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
The People suggest that the element of intimidation and coer...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25
While there is no doubt that the crime at issue here is not ...
Effete site pervert
  09/16/25


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:37 AM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

Ljl New York is so fucked up they can't even get this guy to go down on LWOP. 25 to life with the possibility of parole. Fed case only way he gets life or the death penalty. Libs never cease to amaze me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274515)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:39 AM
Author: hyperactive black halford mother

Why no murder 1?

Edit: just googled. NY requires an aggravating factor for murder 1 and premeditation doesn't count.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274519)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:09 AM
Author: 180 nibblets

wtf is more aggravating than premeditation?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274611)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:10 AM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

You have to kill a cop or mock/threaten/defame a legislator. Only way.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274617)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:11 AM
Author: 180 nibblets

ljl

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274619)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:15 AM
Author: Effete site pervert



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274626)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:38 PM
Author: milky big-titted senate digit ratio



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276084)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:55 PM
Author: blathering new version

torture also gets it iirc

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276646)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:10 AM
Author: hyperactive black halford mother

Terrorism I guess? Dunno, I didn't write the law.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274618)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:39 AM
Author: Effete site pervert

NY murder 1 is very narrow and was an overcharge in the first place

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274520)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:41 AM
Author: Flushed french chef

how is a planned political assassination not murder one?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274521)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:42 AM
Author: Effete site pervert

every state defines murder 1 differently. which category do you think it is?

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274523)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:47 AM
Author: Flushed french chef

terrorism

but the laws are pretty stupid if a planned political assassination isn’t included

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274535)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:48 AM
Author: Effete site pervert

explain your argument how murdering a CEO is terrorism:

https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-490-05/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274539)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:50 AM
Author: Khaki Gas Station

I don't see it fitting the NY definition of terrorism for these purposes

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/490.05

(b) for purposes of subparagraph (xiii) of paragraph (a) of subdivision one of section 125.27 of this chapter means activities that involve a violent act or acts dangerous to human life that are in violation of the criminal laws of this state and are intended to:

(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274542)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:07 AM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

Right it's not there. It's a really dumb statute. It's obvious the legislature wanted to maximize the number of murderers it let out.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274596)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:07 AM
Author: Khaki Gas Station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274602)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:49 AM
Author: Flushed french chef



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274669)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 6:41 PM
Author: Magical Naked Deer Antler Doctorate

"affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder"

-- attempted to affect conduct of DHHS as represented by Medicare reimbursement and the outsized influence they have on health insurers

-- affected the conduct of the police since they had to secure the area and investigate

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49275930)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

>-- affected the conduct of the police since they had to secure the area and investigate

this applies to literally every killer on the loose

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276040)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:48 AM
Author: Khaki Gas Station

it can't plausibly be any of them, including not the terrorism definition

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/490.05

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274538)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:07 AM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

Incredibly retarded statute

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274601)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:21 AM
Author: Effete site pervert

actually it's kinda retarded that premeditation & deliberation is used as a way to grade murders. imho any intentional killing should be punished with LWOP whether there's premeditation & delib or not.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274631)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:22 AM
Author: 180 nibblets

are you a lawyer? premeditation proves intent. without evidence of premeditation the killer just says "i didn't mean to!" and you're stuck with murder 2 unless he did something obviously fatal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274635)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:23 AM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274638)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 11:25 AM
Author: Effete site pervert

are YOU a lawyer? the jury can infer intent. evidence of premed & delib goes show intent, even if premed & delib isnt required to be separately proven.

i'm saying an intentional murder should be LWOP regardless of premed & delib. the prosecution is free to introduce evidence of premed & delib to show intent.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49274642)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:34 PM
Author: milky big-titted senate digit ratio

cr, intentional murder has to be at the very least LWOP because otherwise someone can "trade up" and deliberately take another life without even having to sacrifice their own. this is obviously unacceptable to society

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276074)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 9:12 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

also, the concept of premed & delib is pretty retarded. you can have an intentional murder w/o premed & delib.

and premed & delib basically means whatever the jury wants it to mean. there's no minimum time for premed & delib. you can premeditate for 1 minute, like you get into a fight and then decide youre gonna shoot someone. it's meaningless

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276389)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 5:35 PM
Author: Frozen magenta partner forum

no he's right gradations of murder are retarded

we already have manslaughter for situations w/extenuating circumstances.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49275759)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:30 PM
Author: milky big-titted senate digit ratio

non-lawyer here,

cr although i can see the utility in breaking them up into gradations for mandatory minimum sentencing purposes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276062)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: rough-skinned hospital party of the first part

wtf? change your name

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:30 PM

Author: nazi Lawyer

non-lawyer here,

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276457)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:03 PM
Author: milky big-titted senate digit ratio

jurisprudence tp doesn't take l*wyers seriously so i had to preface my opinion by clarifying that i'm not a l*wyer

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276540)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:32 PM
Author: Sable low-t school cafeteria prole

I was wondering if Utah might do that to Tyler. Did they raise their burden of proof by requiring a child to see and hear every goddamn thing? What if the child didn't see him text his roommate or load the chamber?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276067)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 6:49 PM
Author: fragrant athletic conference affirmative action

So Alvin Bragg is too right wing for NYC courts now

*blank stare*

*blood runs from eyes*

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49275953)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 6:50 PM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

ESL?

No one here lives on BlueSky care to break it down for us?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49275956)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:33 PM
Author: Sable low-t school cafeteria prole

Whoops!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276070)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:37 PM
Author: fishy anal tanning salon

Putting confirmed murderers on the street is practically a plank in the shitlib platform

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276080)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:47 PM
Author: Burgundy immigrant space

The only reason liberals put up with this is that it 100% never happens in wealthy suburban enclaves or the 'nice part' of major metros. Plain and simple. Victims of crime is for someone else, somewhere else. Go to Westchester and tell me where the drive by shootings and the gang violence is. Nada.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276115)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 7:52 PM
Author: milky big-titted senate digit ratio



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276139)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:05 PM
Author: contagious walnut half-breed plaza

It clearly had a political motive, hence it was terrorism. QED.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276547)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

the statute doesnt say "political motive"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276591)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:26 PM
Author: contagious walnut half-breed plaza

it uses the definition of politics:

influence the policy of a unit of government

affect the conduct of a unit of government

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276605)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:28 PM
Author: Heady unholy hall

A CEO is a private citizen. HTH.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276607)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:33 PM
Author: Effete site pervert



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276614)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:33 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

(idiot who has never heard of legislative intent)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276613)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

(xo 2025) theres a 12 page written opinion on this issue. 50 poasts in, and nobody bothered to find it:

https://www.nycourts.gov/legacypdfs/press/pdfs/PeoplevLuigiMangione-omnidecision-091625.pdf

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276627)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:45 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

There was no evidence presented that defendant made any demands of govemment or

sought any particular governmental policy change, let alone that he did so by intimidation or

coercion

...

Indeed, as the federal

authorities noted, the defendant's goal appeared to be to draw the public's attention to what he

perceived to be problems with the healthcare industry.5 The People place great emphasis on one

snatched phrase ("revolutionary anarchism") in defendant's writings to suggest that this satisfies

the statutory element of an intent to "influence the policy of a unit of govemment by intimidation

or coercion, or affect the conduct ofa unit ofgovernment by murder, assassination or

kidnapping."6 Not only does this stretch the import of a two-word phrase beyond what it can

carry, but it ignores other, more explicit excerpts from defendant's writings in which he states

that his goal is to spread a "message" and "win public support" about "every4hing wrong with our

health system." Therefore, the court finds that the People failed to establish an intent to

"influence" or "affect" government. This court will tbcus on the intent element that both sides

appear to emphasize - the intimidation or coercion of a civilian population

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276635)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:46 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

The defendant's apparent objective,

as stated in his writings, was not to threaten, intimidate, or coerce, but rather, to draw attention to

what he perceived as the greed ofthe insurance industry ("members ofthe public can focus on

greed"), and, as an additional possible consequence, to negatively affect the financials ofthe

company. The defendant emphasized that he wished to spread a "message" and "win public

support" about "every.thing wrong with our health system." The def'endant explicitly

contrasted himself with Ted Kaczynski, the "Unabomber," because he "indiscriminately mail

bomb[ed] innocents," and "cross[ed] the line ... to terrorist, the worst thing a person can be."

Exhibit A to People's Affirmation in Response to Defendant's Omnibus Motion. While

defendant's own characterization olhis conduct is olcourse not dispositive, where there is no

other evidence ofterroristic intent, the writings fail to supply that evidence, contrary to the

People's characterization. The People presented sufficient evidence that the defendant murdered

Brian Thompson in a premeditated and calculated execution. That does not mean, however, that

the delendant did so with terroristic intent.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276636)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:47 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

The People suggest that the element of intimidation and coercion can be met because

some UHC employees felt fearful after the murder, and some UHC employees received threats.

But putting aside that some employees received threats even before the murder (one so serious

that investigators traveled to another state to investigate), and every murder has the potential to

induce some degree of fear - for example, a random murder in the subway will cause riders to

feel fearful about riding the subway - that I'ails to establish that this was the deflendant's intent, or

that the conduct fits within the statutory definition of terrorism

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276638)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 16th, 2025 10:47 PM
Author: Effete site pervert

While there is no doubt that the crime at issue here is not ordinary "street crime," it does

not follow that all non-street crimes were meant to be included within the reach ofthe tenorism

statute. While the People place great emphasis on defendant's "ideological" motive, there is no

indication in the statute that a murder committed for ideological reasons (in this case, the

defendant's apparent desire to draw attention to what he perceived as inequities or greed within

the American health care system), fits within the definition of terrorism. without establishing the

necessary element ofan intent to intimidate or coerce. The court agrees with the defendant that

the People appear to conflate an ideological belief with the intent to intimidate or coerce a

civilian population. While the defendant was clearly expressing an animus toward UHC, and the

health care industry generally, it does not lollow that his goal was to "intimidate and coerce a

civilian population," and indeed, there was no evidence presented ofsuch a goal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5775882&forum_id=2в#49276639)