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Politico: "Actually, all Nazis aren't necessarily bad"

https://www.politico.eu/article/fight-against-ussr-nazi-waff...
Pearl dashing abode
  10/03/23
The Nazis in Ukraine don't exist but when they do it's nbd t...
Blue pisswyrm
  10/03/23
this nazi lives in Canada
very tactful lascivious wrinkle
  10/03/23
Hmm were there any other countries “not put on trial&r...
Stimulating Fluffy Site
  10/03/23
we’re all nazis down here
very tactful lascivious wrinkle
  10/03/23
Matt Taibbi's take on this stupid article
arousing domesticated public bath half-breed
  10/03/23
hands off Pinochet, Matt
very tactful lascivious wrinkle
  10/03/23
Augusto Pinochet Did Nothing Wrong
arousing domesticated public bath half-breed
  10/03/23
...
very tactful lascivious wrinkle
  10/03/23
To be fair, Based.
Aphrodisiac lake reading party
  10/03/23
In fact, most of them were 180
Odious submissive corner
  10/03/23
...
Pearl dashing abode
  10/03/23
R*ssiacucks will come in here and start screeching but this ...
Boyish carnelian stag film indirect expression
  10/03/23
i don’t even resent that 100% of our media is agitprop...
exciting overrated locus water buffalo
  10/03/23


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Date: October 3rd, 2023 4:32 PM
Author: Pearl dashing abode

https://www.politico.eu/article/fight-against-ussr-nazi-waffen-ss-trooper-yaroslav-hunka-world-war-ii-soviet-union-germany

Fighting against the USSR didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi

Canada’s Hunka scandal is a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

Everybody knows that a lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on.

And the ongoing turmoil over Canada’s parliament recognizing former SS trooper Yaroslav Hunka highlights one of the most important reasons why.

Something that’s untrue but simple is far more persuasive than a complicated, nuanced truth — a major problem for Western democracies trying to fight disinformation and propaganda by countering it with the truth, and one reason why fact-checking and debunking are only of limited use for doing so.

In the case of Hunka, the mass outrage stems from his enlistment with one of the foreign legions of the Waffen-SS, fighting Soviet forces on Germany’s eastern front. And it’s a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

This history is complicated because fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi, just someone who had an excruciating choice over which of these two terror regimes to resist. However, the idea that foreign volunteers and conscripts were being allocated to the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht on administrative rather than ideological grounds is a hard sell for audiences conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide. And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp.

A photograph of SS Galizien soldier Yaroslav Hunka, taken between 1943 and 1945 | Creative Commons via Wikimedia

Canada’s enemies have thus latched on to these simple narratives, alongside concerned citizens in Canada itself, with the misstep over Hunka being used by Russia and its backers to attack Ukraine, Canada and each country’s association with the other.

According to Russia’s ambassador in Canada, Hunka’s unit “committed multiple war crimes, including mass murder, against the Russian people, ethnic Russians. This is a proven fact.” But whenever a Russian official calls something a “proven fact,” it should set off alarms. And sure enough, here too the facts were invented out of thin air. Repeated exhaustive investigations — including by not only the Nuremberg trials but also the British, Canadian and even Soviet authorities — led to the conclusion that no war crimes or atrocities had been committed by this particular unit.

But this is just the latest twist in a long-running campaign by the Russian Embassy in Ottawa, dating back even to Soviet times, when the USSR would leverage accusations of Nazi collaboration for political purposes as part of its “active measures” operations.

And given Moscow’s own history of aggression and atrocities during World War II and its aftermath, there’s a special cynicism underlying the Russian accusations. Russia feels comfortable shouting about “Nazis,” real or imaginary, in Ukraine or elsewhere, because unlike Nazi Germany, leaders and soldiers of the Soviet Union were never put on trial for their war crimes. Russia clings to the Nuremberg trials as a benchmark of legitimacy because as a victorious power, it was never subjected to the same reckoning. And yet, both before and after their collaborative effort to carve up eastern Europe between them, the Soviets and the Nazis had so much in common that it’s now illegal to point these similarities out in Russia.

Yet, it’s not just enemies of democracy that are subscribing to the seductively simple. Jewish advocacy groups in Canada have been understandably loud in their condemnation of Hunka’s recognition. But here, too, accusations risk being influenced more by misconception and supposition than history and evidence.

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center registered its outrage, noting that Hunka’s unit’s “crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented” — a statement that doesn’t seem to have any more substance than the accusation by Russia.

In fact, during previous investigations of the same group carried out by a Canadian Commission of Inquiry, Simon Wiesenthal himself was found to have made broad accusations that were found to be “nearly totally useless” and “put the Canadian government to a considerable amount of purposeless work.”

The result of all this is that otherwise intelligent people are now trying to outdo each other in a chorus of evidence-free condemnation.

In Parliament itself, Canadian Conservative MP Melissa Lantsman called Hunka “a monster.” Meanwhile, Poland’s education minister appears to have decided to first seek Hunka’s extradition to Poland, then try to determine whether he has actually committed any crime afterward. And the ostracism is now extending to members of Hunka’s family, born long after any possible crime could have been committed during World War II.

The episode shows that dealing with complex truths is hard but essential. Unfortunately, though, a debunking or fact-checking approach to countering disinformation relies on an audience willing to put in the time and effort to read the accurate version of events, and be interested in discovering it in the first place. This means debunking mainly works for very specific audiences, like government officials, analysts, academics and (some) journalists.

But most of the rest of us, especially when just scrolling through social media, are instead likely to have a superficial and fleeting interest, which means a lengthy exposition of why a given piece of information is wrong will be far less likely to reach us and have an impact.

In the Hunka case, commentary taking a more balanced view of the complex history does exist, but it’s rare, and when it does occur, it is by unfortunate necessity very long — a direct contrast to most propaganda narratives that are successfully spread by Russia and its agents. Sadly, an idea simple enough to fit on a T-shirt is vastly more powerful than a rebuttal that has to start with “well, actually . . .”

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now issued an apology in his own name over Hunka’s ovation too. However, any further discussion of the error has to be carefully phrased, as any suggestion that Canada is showing contrition for “honoring a Nazi” would acquiesce to the rewriting of history by Russia and its backers, and concede to allegations of Hunka’s guilt that have no basis in evidence.

It’s true that Hunka should never have been invited into Canada’s House of Commons. But that’s not because he himself might be guilty of any crime. Rightly or wrongly, on an issue so toxic, it was inevitable the invitation would provide a golden opportunity for Russian propaganda.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879570)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 4:33 PM
Author: Blue pisswyrm

The Nazis in Ukraine don't exist but when they do it's nbd that one needs to talk about.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879587)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:56 PM
Author: very tactful lascivious wrinkle

this nazi lives in Canada

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46880129)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 4:35 PM
Author: Stimulating Fluffy Site

Hmm were there any other countries “not put on trial” after WWII that may have committed atrocities?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879603)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 4:42 PM
Author: very tactful lascivious wrinkle

we’re all nazis down here

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879651)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 4:56 PM
Author: arousing domesticated public bath half-breed
Subject: Matt Taibbi's take on this stupid article

The Worst Op-Ed in History?

Politico gives National Socialism its finest makeover since "Springtime for Hitler"

MATT TAIBBI

OCT 3

Start with the title: “Fighting against the USSR didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi.” The Politico Europe editor approving it was either high on glue, or finally decided yesterday to come to work in his secret Schutzstaffel uniform. No other explanation fits.

Writer Keir Giles argued there’s “disinformation” and a “lie” in the outrage over Canada’s parliament cheering former Waffen SS soldier Yaroslav Hunka:

>"This history is complicated because fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi, just someone who had an excruciating choice over which of these two terror regimes to resist. However, the idea that foreign volunteers and conscripts were being allocated to the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht on administrative rather than ideological grounds is a hard sell for audiences conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide. And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp."<

On “fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi”: didn’t it if you were Yaroslav Hunka, who was actually a Nazi? Giles protests Hunka’s Waffen-SS service is just a “hard sell” to current audiences because they’ve been “conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide,” due to “simple narratives like ‘everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes.’” Hunka’s 14th Waffen Grenadier unit, aka the Galicia Division, was in 2003 found by the Polish government to have murdered about 1000 inhabitants of Huta Pieniacka, now in the Lviv Oblast of Ukraine. The report singled out the “14th sub-unit” of the Galizien, which may be why Poland’s education Minister just said he’s “taken steps toward the possible extradition of this man.”

It doesn’t matter, because this story was never about the moral choices of Yaroslav Hunka, but the decision by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Canadian House of Commons Speaker Anthony Rota, and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland to applaud as a “Canadian hero” a former member of the SS. Hunka also happened also to have fought on the other side in a war that killed 42,000 Canadians. But who’s counting? As Giles writes, it’s “complicated.”

GOERING AT NUREMBERG: IT’S COMPLICATED would have fit National Lampoon’s famed “Hitler’s Tropical Escape” issue, or its later “Spring Fascism Preview.” A New York Times spoof would write itself: “For Augusto Pinochet, Good Governance, Complex Choices.” But Giles one-ups them all with this piece arguing, with no laugh track, the “nuanced truth” of SS service. It’s the literary equivalent of trying to scale the El Capitan Wall without a harness, an incredible thing to try, much less publish.

Politico ran a photo of Hunka in his Galizien uniform, but the article still made repeated references to things like “shouting about ‘Nazis,’ real or imaginary” (you just established this one isn’t imaginary!) or the “chorus of evidence-free condemnation” (you just printed the evidence!).

The stunner passage is near the end:

>"The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center registered its outrage, noting that Hunka’s unit’s “crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented” — a statement that doesn’t seem to have any more substance than the accusation by Russia."<

If you had “Simon Wiesenthal Center accused of echoing Russian propaganda” on your historical bingo card, congratulations. Giles wants to split hairs, because while the Poles and organizations like the one founded by Lviv native Wiesenthal obviously think one thing about the Galizien, investigations by “British, Canadian and even Soviet authorities” have cleared the unit.

He appears not to get that the spectacle of Canada’s parliament and Prime Minister cheering like beered-up Leafs fans for any member of the Waffen-SS is exactly the nightmare Holocaust survivors always warned about. The uniform and the symbolism behind it are what matter in a political stunt like this, which if not a mistake, is bad enough. It’s worse if Rota, Trudeau, and former Ukrainian News and Ukrainian Weekly writer Freeland were somehow ignorant of Hunka’s SS past, and the likes of Giles are now asking a Holocaust remembrance group to chill out because it’s not true that “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes.” Never forget, except in some cases?

Similar apologies popped up across media after Canada’s debacle. The CBC, fast earning a reputation for its rare mix of transparent propaganda and unreadable social justice jargon, previewed the Politico mess with “Speaker’s honouring of former Nazi soldier reveals a complicated past, say historians,” quoting an analyst saying “the minutiae” of history gets “very delicate,” so “you have to tread softly on these issues.” CBC also published “Ukrainians reckoning with ‘complexity of history’ after Hunka affair,” Others conceded a mistake but spent more time complaining the episode was being used for a Russian “disinformation campaign,” as the Toronto Star put it. The fact-checking arm of RFE/RL, Polygraph, wrote, “Contrary to rewriting World War II history, Canada’s leadership expressed embarrassment and apologized,” while Russian disinformation had gone into “overdrive.” They said they were sorry!

We’ve reached the chapter in God’s novel where the dull, received-wisdom format of the Western op-ed is being deployed to argue National Socialism wasn’t all bad. Mel Brooks struck gold imagining the Broadway musical similarly repurposed, but this is no joke. What a time to be alive. Every day a new milestone!



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879753)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:26 PM
Author: very tactful lascivious wrinkle

hands off Pinochet, Matt

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879968)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:27 PM
Author: arousing domesticated public bath half-breed

Augusto Pinochet Did Nothing Wrong

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879973)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:30 PM
Author: very tactful lascivious wrinkle



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879987)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:28 PM
Author: Aphrodisiac lake reading party

To be fair,

Based.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879977)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:29 PM
Author: Odious submissive corner

In fact, most of them were 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46879983)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 5:44 PM
Author: Pearl dashing abode



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46880065)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 7:32 PM
Author: Boyish carnelian stag film indirect expression

R*ssiacucks will come in here and start screeching but this is mega based

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46880521)



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Date: October 3rd, 2023 7:41 PM
Author: exciting overrated locus water buffalo

i don’t even resent that 100% of our media is agitprop designed with the ultimate goal of immiserating me and my progeny. i resent that they’re so shameless and hamfisted about it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5418543&forum_id=2#46880550)