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Leiter's anti-top-14 rant . . .
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:46 PM Author: Burgundy hunting ground gas station http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/03/from_the_bowels.html
"Here's the bizarre part: the only rationale for this grouping is that all these schools have been ranked in "the top 14" by U.S. News and World Report since roughly the early-to-mid-1990s!"
I think that the more likely rationale is that these are the schools with truly national placement. Or could it be that no rational grouping of top schools would include a school that would hire an asshole as big as Leiter? |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:47 PM Author: dead slate indian lodge It's Leittter. What did you expect? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377746) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:47 PM Author: Pea-brained Fuchsia Giraffe "I think that the more likely rationale is that these are the schools with truly national placement."
Um, no, actually the reason why they're the T14 is because they've always been the "Top 14," whatever that's supposed to mean. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:50 PM Author: plum church You're an incredible idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377781) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:51 PM Author: Pea-brained Fuchsia Giraffe O RLY? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377785) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM Author: plum church Yep. t14 is a USN designation but it also reflects the fact that those 14 schools have truly national placement and have held this position consistently. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377806) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:54 PM Author: Pea-brained Fuchsia Giraffe NO WAI (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377813) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: plum church You think you're pretty funny and clever, don't you? Keep posting idiotic internet slogans and ignoring all rational posts, you fucking idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377822) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:57 PM Author: Pea-brained Fuchsia Giraffe O RLY? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377841) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: plum church moron. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377854) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:11 PM Author: insecure 180 keepsake machete You're a douche. Kill yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378491) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:14 PM Author: plum church hi "90210markII"! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378519) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:18 PM Author: Pearly police squad boistinker you're a douche. kill yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378560) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM Author: titillating trust fund national Oh, hello Brian. For a second, when I clicked on your "carelessly designed and gameable rankings" link, I thought it had taken me to your own law school rankings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377799) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:48 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend He doesn't like top 6 or top 3 either. Jerk. :( (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377752) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:48 PM Author: seedy stead "Here's the bizarre part: the only rationale for this grouping is that all these schools have been ranked in "the top 14" by U.S. News and World Report since roughly the early-to-mid-1990s!"
Yeah, that's the only reason. Whatever you say Brian... |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:50 PM Author: plum church LOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377776) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM Author: seedy stead Another gem.
"Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier.""
Yeah, lives have been ruined because the T14 concept has caused people to turn down Texas for GULC. Whatever. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM Author: dead slate indian lodge lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377811) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:54 PM Author: plum church I chose a t14 over a tier three because of US News and now my life is ruined. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377815) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: seedy stead Every single day I cry myself to sleep because I took Penn over Temple w/ money. If only those damn rankings hadn't been there to feed me misinformation!!!!!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377853) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM Author: plum church I nearly shot myself when I read Leiter's blog and saw that rankings don't mean anything. And to think I would get a better job out of a t14 than Quinipiac!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377859) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:17 PM Author: out-of-control lilac pistol parlour how actionable (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377991) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM Author: Flatulent library half-breed So it's ridiculous to say top 14, but "top 15"? No problem:
"It is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation"
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:03 PM Author: Racy Fishy State Rigor Priceless (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377884) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:04 PM Author: seedy stead What's even funnier is that those same rankings he claims disprove the concept of the T14 also disprove the concept of a T15. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377894) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:05 PM Author: plum church Leiter is such an idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377902) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:03 PM Author: Self-absorbed Glittery Blood Rage Clearly, Leiter's life and career has been damaged by this distinction. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377889) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend "In the real world of lawyers, judges, and law professors, it is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp".
Why isn't 15 from the "real world" just as arbitrary than the 14 from the "unreal world"?
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: Chrome step-uncle's house Philosophy, dude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377823) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:57 PM Author: seedy stead What's funny is that multiple law school admissions guidebooks explicitly reference the T14 concept, like Susan Estrich's book and Anna Ivey's guide. It's not like it's some internet-only thing, and it's not like it's exactly new. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377835) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:36 AM Author: diverse sooty background story nowag WHere did the Top 14 as an expression first start being widely used? I remember it on the old PR Board (I'm old, I have had many different user names).
Is that where it first started being commonly used? |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:52 AM Author: seedy stead Yeah. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379226) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:17 PM Author: titillating trust fund national It is pretty halarious to assert a "conventional wisdom" where none exists. Every person--judge, lawyer, professor, or student--I've EVER heard refer to top schools has used the terms "top fourteen," "top five," or "top ten."
I guess it wouldn't surprise me if people at Texas use the "top fifteen" phraseology, as it would be self-serving to link themselves with top schools. Perhaps Leiter has just taken an anecdote that applies to his own life and assumed it must also be true elsewhere. If that's the case, it's truly amazing that this guy has a job. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:46 PM Author: Contagious sadistic brethren Bullshit people in practice said top 14. They would say top 5, top 10, and top 20, but not top 14. not saying that top 14 isn't valid, I completely think it is, but you are BSing when you claim judges, professors, and lawyers say top 14. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378811) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:49 PM Author: lascivious brunch Read below: Leiter himself uses top 14. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378828) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:54 PM Author: seedy stead I've heard Top 14 used many times in person by students, administrators, professors, etc., and it's also appeared in several published law school guides. It's not exactly an obscure term. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378877) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:38 AM Author: diverse sooty background story nowag Really? People actually say "Top 14" - doesn't that show they post here? I know I would never admit to posting here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379132) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:01 AM Author: titillating trust fund national The term existed long before xoxo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379288) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:16 AM Author: titillating trust fund national You might want to re-read my post. I didn't say that they commonly said "top fourteen." Rather, I listed three phrases that I believe to be far more common among practioners and students alike than "top fifteen." Two of those phrases were two of the three that you mention.
My point, which was quite clear, was that there is no conventional wisdom in favor of "top fifteen." |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 11:20 PM Author: Contagious sadistic brethren Yeah, and reread my post as well. My only point was that "top 14" as used by practioners is rare. That was all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5386042) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:01 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife I agree. Lawyers say top 5 and top 10, not top 15. Though they may think different T14 schools are T10. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379904) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:28 PM Author: Cheese-eating Kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382918) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:55 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Yeah, I clarified the post.
I think people have different definitions of what is a "Top 10" school, but most will probably fall within that category in at least some people's minds. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:58 PM Author: ocher pungent selfie Subject: I totally ignored the T14 I totally ignored the petty T14 law school rankings by USNews when applying to law school.
I applied to a wide variety of schools based on my own research available from the ABA and additional reported statistics from the schools themselves along with indpendant third parties.
I don't care about rankings. I cared only about my future as a lawyer. I looked for schools which would place me in spots that would make for a lucrative career and perhaps interesting career.
I also valued the actual quality of teaching faculty and student quality - again completely ignoring rankings.
Imagine my surprise as my acceptances started to roll in and other law applicant geeks would say 'wow thats a T14 school'. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM Author: seedy stead "I don't care about rankings. I cared only about my future as a lawyer. I looked for schools which would place me in spots that would make for a lucrative career and perhaps interesting career."
How were you able to determine this? |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:02 PM Author: ocher pungent selfie Subject: that was failed internet sarcasm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377879) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:12 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend I wonder why comments are disabled. Comments are enabled on other posts. See, e.g., http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/02/national_and_re.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377950) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 PM Author: godawful toilet seat Even though they're enabled in the other posts he still hand screens them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382658) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM Author: Chrome step-uncle's house I almost forgot why Brian Leiter hates us. And then I glanced at the top of the page and found a useful link explaining why he hates us. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377802) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM Author: beady-eyed hideous alpha That dipshit needs to keep up with the times. We killed that "sweet 16" nonsense a while ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377812) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: Fighting Crimson Temple My god, this guy's obsession with law school rankings is even more absurd than this board's.
He opens with this line pronouncing the existence and validity of a Top 15: "In the real world of lawyers, judges, and law professors, it is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation (though not necessarily in national placement)."
And then closes with this gem: "Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier."
So, Top 14 = literally meaningless categorie that may damage careers and lives. But Top 15 = truth? Okay.
What a pathetically self-conscious UT troll. I can't believe Chicago invited this guy to visit. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:01 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend It is disappointing that Chicago asked him to visit. I've always heard Chicago was this place where debate was open and vigorous, but always respectful. This is not what Leiter is all about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377868) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:37 PM Author: citrine rebellious private investor hall I promise you, an elaborate, legendary PWNing is already in the works among certain students....
I can't say more, since we're always TWO SUBPOENAS AWAY from disaster here on XOXO. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:02 PM Author: seedy stead Yeah, it's lovely how he just throws out this idea about a T15 without any substantiation. Especially funny that several of those rankings he links to in his post call that T15 concept into question. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377877) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:19 PM Author: titillating trust fund national Yeah, but you can leap over any logical fallacy with "conventional wisdom." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378019) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:42 AM Author: Charcoal toaster i hate that leiter was invited by chicago as well. he is such a douche. i really hope that leiter does not get an offer from chicago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379166) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:09 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig Leiter makes a lot of sense. I agree with him. His rankings based solely on student body is also a much better, and seemingly more in the style of xo, ranking system. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377936) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:11 PM Author: seedy stead And yet they don't support his claim of a T15 at all (or at least not a T15 that includes Texas):
http://www.leiterrankings.com/students/2005student_quality.shtml |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:27 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig You're right about that. I just never liked the concept of t14, it seems too driven by xo. I think that there are like 7 or 8 top top law schools, then about 15-20 that are a step below, but still damn good. After that, its harder to differentiate and maybe it should be done on a regional basis. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378069) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:03 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Arguably defensible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379906) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:19 PM Author: Glassy bearded station boltzmann I always knew Fordham was top 20. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378566) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:28 PM Author: Narrow-minded pozpig It is a top 20 school, reputation aside. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378638) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:44 PM Author: Glassy bearded station boltzmann oh fordham, if only you could reach 50% of your potential then i might actually attend you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378779) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:12 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend I'm happy he compiles lists of all sort. They are interesting.
He, on the other hand, is a big fricking prick. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:23 PM Author: titillating trust fund national His faculty quality and faculty movers lists, though, are pure bullshit. He often doesn't know anything about the person he grades. I highly doubt he reads all of their work (or, in most cases, probably ANY of their work) before making one of his pronouncements. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378045) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:31 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend The faculty quality list is based on surveys sent to other faculty members. I think he does a decent enough job. He seems more open about his survey than US News. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378105) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:33 PM Author: seedy stead It's especially funny when he claims someone left the school when in reality they haven't at all. Like when he listed Geoffrey Hazard as a Hastings prof and not a Penn prof in his 2005 faculty rankings. And yet, in March 2006, on the Penn Law front page:
According to Professor Geoffrey Hazard, Kentucky's Assistant County Attorney Ballard may have violated ethical rules for lawyers prohibiting deception when he disguised his involvement in a letter that lead to the ousting of Judge Stewart. The Courier Journal (2/26/06). Article.
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:15 PM Author: beady-eyed hideous alpha http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=284778&mc=3&forum_id=2 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377972) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:21 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle school cafeteria filthpig Why's this guy catch so much flak on here? He doesn't seem to be any douchier than the average poster, and he's certainly more successful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378028) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:22 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend You haven't been around long enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378039) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:25 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle school cafeteria filthpig I've been here almost two years. That seems like a pretty long time. What, did he do something a decade ago that people are still rankled by? It seems pretty silly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378057) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:30 PM Author: titillating trust fund national Aside from the fact that he's an incredible fucking douche, he's a drooling moron. What more do we need? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378100) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:25 PM Author: Flatulent library half-breed For one, it's probably not a good idea to do a study designed to assess "national placement power" of law schools that excludes DPW and STB while including Miller Nash and Stoel Rives. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378052) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:26 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle school cafeteria filthpig Are you kidding? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378065) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM Author: Flatulent library half-breed I wish I were: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003job_national.shtml (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378077) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:29 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig Yeah that is a horrible study. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378089) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:31 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig Even putting Vault differences aside, can you really get a good idea of how a school places in New York based on how many associates it had go to Wachtell, Cravath or SullCrom? I think not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378107) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:37 PM Author: seedy stead Except it's even worse than that. See my post below -- he *completely* excluded Cravath and SullCrom associates, and only included Cravath/SullCrom partners. The only NY firm that had all its associates and partners in his dataset was Wachtell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378161) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:39 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig Now I'm really mad at that dood. Thank you for your study. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378170) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM Author: out-of-control lilac pistol parlour are you talking about that ranking that just chose 3 firms in each city? it's bizarre in the Vault context, but it depends what "national" means, i suppose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378084) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:32 PM Author: Flatulent library half-breed "but it depends what 'national' means, i suppose."
I guess, but he should have accounted in some way for the concentration of elite firms in some cities. You can't assess national placement power by including 5 Texas firms, 3 Seattle firms, 3 Atlanta firms, and only 3 from New York, which is by far the largest legal market (not to mention only 3 from Chi and 3 from DC).
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:48 PM Author: seedy stead That and he doesn't even examine all the lawyers at those 3 NY firms; he completely excludes all associates at Cravath and SullCrom. Wachtell, Cravath, and SullCrom is a very shitty sample as it is -- Wachtell, Cravath partners, and SullCrom partners is an even shittier one, especially when he includes partners and associates at the 5 Texas firms, 3 Seattle firms, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378242) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:59 PM Author: Bespoke yarmulke cruise ship He picked FIVE Texas firms?
What a douche. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:36 PM Author: seedy stead Don't forget the fact that his "study" completely excludes *ALL* associates at Cravath and SullCrom (those firms don't include associates in their Martindale listing, which is what he used).
So basically his NY dataset just includes Wachtell, and Cravath/SullCrom partners. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:37 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig Wow. I didn't know that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378157) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:38 PM Author: Flatulent library half-breed Didn't know that. Awesome.
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:46 PM Author: seedy stead It's truly amazing. Those omissions, as well as his extreme oversampling of firms in TTT markets and his failure to account for regional preferences, explain why he gets very odd results like Columbia at #7 and NYU at #11. Basically this whole thing was constructed to make Texas look like it places far better than it actually does. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378227) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:06 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Columbia/NYU doesn't seem that strange, given that Columbia is more historicaly established, and that both will tend to focus on NYU as their home market (in addition to being the primary biglaw market overall.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379909) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:16 AM Author: seedy stead You're greatly underestimating the impact leaving out Cravath and SullCrom's associates had on these rankings. Let's use Columbia and Cravath as an example. I'm going to cite to Sullivan here instead of Leiter because Sullivan made his dataset publically available online, used the same methodology as Leiter, and I gathered data on Cravath from its website around the same time Sullivan got his data on Cravath from Martindale.
Sullivan's dataset has only 19 Columbia and 21 NYU grads working at Cravath: http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/data.htm
Now go to http://www.cravath.com and use their attorney search to find out how many Columbia and NYU grads really work there. As of today, the search turns up 82 Columbia grads and 56 NYU grads.
Hmm, 19 vs. 82, and 21 vs. 56... and that's just the difference for Cravath! Throw in the lost SullCrom associates and the gap becomes even bigger.
Now, do you *really* think that didn't have an impact on Leiter (and Sullivan's) rankings? There's absolutely no way Columbia would only be #7 and NYU would only be #11 if Cravath and SullCrom had their entire firms counted, as Leiter did with every other firm in his study. |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:19 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife I'm sure Leiter's survey is highly flawed. I'm just saying that self-selection alone would account for a more "regional" focus for both Columbia and NYU vs. other top 10 programs. I don't doubt that they could both place far more nationally, the grads just tend to stay in NYC for obvious reasons. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379926) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:28 AM Author: seedy stead I think you're misunderstanding the problem here. Most of the ranking was determined by taking the total # of lawyers they found at all those firms and then adjusting it per capita (he wasn't adjusting for regional preferences or anything like I did -- it was straight total laywers divided by total students).
You're right, Columbia and NYU have a more regional focus -- which is precisely *why* completely elimining Cravath and SullCrom's associates from the dataset makes Columbia and NYU appear very low ranked! In other words, Texas and other schools got the benefit of having all lawyers at their "regional" firms counted, while Columbia/NYU/Cornell/Penn and other schools that send most of their grads to NYC were at a very severe handicap, since most of the lawyers in two of their three "regional" firms were not counted at all.
Even if this exact same shitty methodology was used, but with the missing lawyers included, Columbia and NYU would be ranked much higher. If Columbia placement was measured as 1262 / 578 instead of 1162 / 578 (assuming 100 CLS alums at Cravath and SullCrom weren't counted), it would've made a pretty big difference (probably putting CLS at #4 or #5, which is where you'd expect it to be). |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM Author: titillating trust fund national (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378085) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:45 AM Author: Bonkers Goal In Life Native "Why's this guy catch so much flak on here?"
He's the king of douches, and a total windbag. Rather than carrying on intellectual discourse he operates via ad hominem attacks and threats of lawsuits. This is disgraceful conduct, *especially* for a law school prof. Plus, he's full of crap on numerous levels. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:01 PM Author: lascivious brunch How can Leiter possibly say that the top 14 doesn't exist and is "literally meaningless"? Here, for example, is a very learned expert who says quite definitively that there is a "top 14" law schools.
This expert says that "Arguably competitive with the bottom end of the top 14 are such schools as Duke University, the University of California at Los Angeles and the University of Southern California."
So, according to this most learned and wise expert, there is in fact a "top 14."
In fact, this most wise and brilliant expert says that "For purposes of students thinking about teaching careers, the most important factor is the scholarly distinction of the faculty. There are some 180 accredited law schools in the U.S., but the top 14 law schools in terms of faculty quality are (in alphabetical order) the following:"
Who is this wise and brilliant expert who so devastatingly proves that Leiter is dead wrong when he denies the existence of the "top 14"?
Check it out:
http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2004/lawsch.htm
s3lf-pwn3d!
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:03 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig OMFG pwned. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378399) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:04 PM Author: lascivious brunch Can I get a 180, or least a 174 on that one? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378416) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:05 PM Author: Excitant walnut codepig 180+, it really is a great find. YOu should post it on the comments of his blog or write an email or something. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378430) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:07 PM Author: lascivious brunch For the record, in the anti-14 rant, Leiter concedes that UT is not one of the 14, but on his list of the top 14, UT is one of the 14. But, still, he goes to great lengths to deny the existence of 14 and to affirm the existence of the 15. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378455) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:18 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend How does his top 14 differ from US News? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378561) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:22 PM Author: lascivious brunch It has Texas, of course. Plus, it's faculty quality not overall quality. I don't know who he drops out of the 14 to get Texas in.
His schtik is so obvious. Top 14 is meaningless but top 15 is universally accepted. Who's missing from the top 14 as the rest of the world knows it? Texas. |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:24 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend I wonder who he kicked off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378600) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:25 PM Author: Glassy bearded station boltzmann i thought he hated duke for some reason. maybe they're "on the cusp" with USC and UCLA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378612) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:26 PM Author: lascivious brunch Columbia University University of California, Berkeley Cornell University University of Chicago Georgetown University University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Harvard University University of Pennsylvania New York University University of Texas, Austin Northwestern University University of Virginia Stanford University Yale University
No Duke or UCLA |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:50 PM Author: seedy stead 180. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378844) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:52 PM Author: lascivious brunch Download that one, because he has to change it! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378861) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:02 AM Author: Drab becky pwn3d. his hypocrisy rivals gto. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378925) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:53 AM Author: magenta crotch 1-fucking-80 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379230) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:43 AM Author: wonderful chest-beating antidepressant drug You guys may not like him, and yes, he is an unbelievable ass, but that doesn't make everything he says wrong. He has a point here. The same 16 schools have been ranked in the top 16 slots, but that doesn't catch on. Why 14? Moreover, the US news rankings suck. They are a senseless mismash of different criteria. It is pretty sad that this ranking system, simply because it is a readily available ranking, has come to define a group of schools as being better than the ones below. Is there a precipitous drop in reputation or placement at 14? I really don't think so. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379175) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:47 AM Author: lascivious brunch You can't say "top 14" is utterly meaningless and also claim that in real world everyone uses "top 15." Then when you think about why he switches from "absurd" to "universally accepted" when he moves from 14 to 15, you see that the only basis for his 180 degree switch is that his school now makes the list. It's pathetically transparent.
To top it, you go to his own site and see that he invokes the concept of a "top 14" repeatedly when it favors UT.
This guy, by the way, is supposed to be a philosopher. |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM Author: seedy stead "The same 16 schools have been ranked in the top 16 slots, but that doesn't catch on."
Except they haven't. The Top 14 has been in the same slots for something like 15 years, while this "Sweet 16" has only been intact for 5 or 6 years (if even that). Also, every school in the Top 14 has been in the Top 10 at one point, while none of the other schools have (in fact that's how the term originated -- the Top 14 is not the Top 14 because it's always been the Top 14 in US News, but because every school in the Top 14 is arguably a Top 10 school, while that's not the case for Texas, UCLA, etc.). |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:08 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife I don't think Gtown has ever been in the top 10. Also, NU only got there recently, after the T14 phrase was coined. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379911) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:53 PM Author: smoky twinkling uncleanness range 1993 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382617) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:56 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387549) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 1:40 PM Author: Insane ivory idiot "this 'Sweet 16' has only been intact for 5 or 6 years (if even that)."
It's actually been in tact for 8 years (1999-2007).
The rest of your post is 100% true though.
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM Author: Irate Razzmatazz Locus "Is there a precipitous drop in reputation or placement at 14?"
I think there is a real difference in placement between 14 and 15. There's certainly a significant difference between 14 and 20. |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:07 AM Author: massive university I don't think there is a big drop. Is SUNY Ithica, the third best law school in its city, really so much better than Texas as to warrant some type of cutoff distinction? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379319) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:10 AM Author: seedy stead By every objective measure that matters to students, yes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379332) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:17 AM Author: Drab becky texas is a fucking ttt you homosexual troll. eat shit and live with the fact that your school sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379368) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:18 AM Author: Turquoise forum gunner i didn't know Ithaca had 2 more law schools, each better than "SUNY-Ithica"! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379372) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford He's stuck in NYU-bash mode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382646) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 2:03 AM Author: massive university Yeah, sometimes it's hard to keep all my trolling in order. I troll against NYU to justify choosing TTTexas over it, and I troll against Cornell because it is the most likely candidate to fall below TTTexas in the rankings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387619) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:09 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife You could debate UT, or even maybe UCLA, but I don't think USC or Vandy is really comparable to the top 10 schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379914) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:20 AM Author: Aromatic Tripping Fanboi Trailer Park did leiter even go to texas? Didnt you go to Michigan? The douche lost all credibility when he threatened to sue us. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379378) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 2:16 AM Author: Comical violet dilemma us? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379596) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: Aromatic Tripping Fanboi Trailer Park he threatened "subpeonas" for anyone insulting him here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385424) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 10:01 PM Author: Comical violet dilemma subpoenas are perfectly real, and don't require quotations marks. and as most insults are protected speech, that's not exactly what he threatened. are you going to refuse to write a cease and desist letter that threatens subpoenas when the underlying action that's threatened is dubious? or is the sanctity of the "top-14" the only issue you care deeply about? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385474) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 10:11 PM Author: Aromatic Tripping Fanboi Trailer Park you just took the life out of this entire thread. Enjoy hell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385549) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:13 AM Author: Comical violet dilemma no danger of this common enemy losing its allure here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5386523) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Bat shit crazy haunted graveyard i know this reply is several months late, but this seems like a very odd post to me.
"are you going to refuse to write a cease and desist letter that threatens subpoenas when the underlying action that's threatened is dubious?"
this is what i don't understand. Leiter was not representing anyone except himself; there was no ethical obligation -- nor even profit motive -- to write the C&D's. so when he makes a particularly questionable threat, he deserves all the blame; there is no client whose interests he is bound to represent.
maybe i'm just not understanding your criticism. |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:19 PM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford moron (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382836) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife I love how he retains the idea of a "Top 15", though, with Texas in the group.
CHEFHYPOCRITPWNED!!!! |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: Blue Know-it-all Gaming Laptop "It seemed to be the operative premise in Justice Thomas's dissent in Grutter when he singled out Michigan, UVA, Boalt, and Texas as the top state schools"
I guess Justice Thomas is only a part of the "lunatic fringe" when he's not writing about law school rankings.
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1139002920.shtml |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:48 AM Author: seedy stead Ha, good find. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379879) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:49 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife CHEFHYPOCRITPWNED!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379883) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:55 AM Author: seedy stead I wonder if that post was intended as a parody of himself. It just seems too absurd to be real given everything else he's written.
Then again, Leiter isn't exactly a bastion of consistency:
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1142728893.shtml |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife It really does a good job of distilling his paranoia, hyprocricy, and obsession into a few short paragraphs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379901) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife PS: It's sad he cited LSD for the T14 concept on the internet, and not XO. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379871) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:47 AM Author: Blue Know-it-all Gaming Laptop he'd never cite this board after the tubgirl incident and why brian leiter hates us. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379874) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:49 AM Author: seedy stead Wouldn't be the first time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379882) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:15 AM Author: Comical violet dilemma you actually find it "sad"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5386547) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:52 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Tragic may be a better word. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387503) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: Bat shit crazy haunted graveyard kind of pathetic, yes, that he bends over backwards not to acknowledge the board's existence when it is so clearly the source -- or at least the most zealous proponent -- of the offending schema (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515886) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend Unrelated, but interesting: http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2005/07/if_i_were_brian.html
Leiter outs someone in the comments to a blog entry:
"Try 'former' friend. What happened to you, Steve? Does your ex, Scott--who was always the nice one--know that you've sunk to this level?
I always admired your philosophical acumen, and your contrarian views in aesthetics, and think it a travesty of our profession that you did not secure permanent employment in it. Posted by: BL at July 10, 2005 01:10 PM " |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 2:00 PM Author: citrine rebellious private investor hall What an insufferable asshole.
EDIT: I re-read it and now I genuinely HATE Brian Leiter. Previously I had a hearty, good-natured contempt for the man. Now I want to see this guy pwn3d when he comes to Chicago in the worst way. |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:32 PM Author: Drab becky holy shit.
gto, you need to add this to 'why leiter hates us and why we hate him.' |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:33 PM Author: Blue Know-it-all Gaming Laptop omg, what a disgusting man. this is completely indefensible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382433) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:20 PM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford Holy shit, what a fucking asshole (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382846) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:29 PM Author: Fighting Crimson Temple Jesus. What a complete asshole. This really gives weight to the title of the other UT prof's blog: "Brian Leiter, Academic Thug." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382923) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:52 AM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford Wow the whole comments section on that is fucking awesome. LeiTTTer is such a TTT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5386940) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:57 AM Author: concupiscible twinkling knife Wow, he didn't just out him -- he "outted" him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387554) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 2:54 PM Author: Grizzly buck-toothed people who are hurt honestly, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? has anybody here taken a class with him who can comment on his in-class behavior? Just his employent alone at UT removes any chance of it ever making it into the top 14
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Date: March 20th, 2006 9:51 PM Author: lime stirring travel guidebook Curious that no one ever answers this query. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385405) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:44 PM Author: Blue Know-it-all Gaming Laptop this incident and thread has made the anti-Leiter blog
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1142886513.shtml |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:22 PM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford I love xo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382854) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 PM Author: godawful toilet seat I didn't apply to Texas or Chicago because of Leiter. Don't these schools realize how much damage he does to their reputations? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382654) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:09 PM Author: Fighting Crimson Temple What the hell is wrong with this guy, seriously? He acts like a 6 year old. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382762) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:26 PM Author: Bespoke yarmulke cruise ship Most 6-year-olds aren't that vindictive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382898) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:31 PM Author: Rough-skinned jade area dingle berry He left out one rationale for the T14 rationale that is wholly logical and morally justifiable: it turns TTTexas people red with sputtering rage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382936) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: Dun vivacious turdskin I saw Leiter at the Chicago-Midway airport wearing a UChicago hat. I approached him to ask if he was Brian Leiter of the Univeristy of Texas and he responded by saying "Depends, do you believe in the myth of t14 or the truth of t15." He was totally erect during our interlude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385458) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 10:41 PM Author: harsh plaza old irish cottage I really don't understand why he obsesses over the rankings of law schools so publicly when he works in academia, it must make him radioactive to anyone who wants to hire him, because with the exception of HYS, he's bashed all the T14 schools at one time or another.
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Date: March 20th, 2006 10:44 PM Author: Comical violet dilemma perhaps GTO can explain the roots of this obsession. it is an odd thing to care deeply about (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385801) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 11:24 PM Author: Hyperventilating institution I think his major problem in academia is just that he has a remarkable way of personalizing the smallest dispute. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5386063) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:59 AM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford I think his major problem in academia is just that he's a prick (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387573) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:55 AM Author: Yellow hissy fit halford A+ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387534) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 11:30 AM Author: High-end histrionic windowlicker this made me laugh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6514708) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 11:33 AM Author: lascivious brunch The anit-Leiter blog is asking if Leiter knows German. Anyone out there know? The answer has to be yes, because how can you get a doctorate on Nietzsche unless you read, write and speak German fluently? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5389244) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 12:00 PM Author: Bat shit crazy haunted graveyard http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Leiter&offset=20060418163131&limit=500&action=history
GTO, what is leiter's IP address? I'd bet dollars to donuts that BL himself is a serious contributor to his own biography, which is a pretty big faux pas in wikipedia |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: navy big organic girlfriend http://www.arin.net/whois/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515199) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 4:00 PM Author: Bat shit crazy haunted graveyard Search results for: brian leiter
No match found for brian leiter.
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-08-27 19:10 # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database. |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 4:02 PM Author: Odious insanely creepy jap looking up 70.112.222.175 (the IP that keeps deleting things), we get a RoadRunner IP in Herndon, VA (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515917) |