Also, a lot of people don't realize that Americans now need to work two jobs for the most part - so big law has bad hours for one job but not so bad if you consider you don't need two jobs.

But given all of this, big law does suck. The work is boring and the stuff you have to care about is very, very mundane. Laughably so. And you do have to work a shitton of hours that would be considered absurd in a normal job.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414113)

"Also, a lot of people don't realize that Americans now need to work two jobs for the most part - so big law has bad hours for one job but not so bad if you consider you don't need two jobs."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414920)

It is fucking hard to have a life outside of work. If you can get over that, it's bearable. Some of the work can actually be pretty interesting, depending on your practice.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414233)

Doc review is one of the best parts of biglaw. You're getting paid good, stable money doing something you can do on the couch with Monday Night Football on.

OH, BUT HOW the 0L scholars wish to dive into scholarly sweet treats like thorny issues of trust law from the turn of the century.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418364)

I do occasionally have to do diligence, which I assumed was similar, and I think its awful. But it's a small part of my practice as most clients have another firm do the diligence work.

But, a good portion of the work I actually do is interesting enough. The bad part of my practice is primarily the hours, but there are other aspects (aside from just money) that help make up for it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26420117)

lololololololololololololololololololololllolololol

lololololololloloololololololololollololololololololololololol

Look at yourself in the mirror, remember when you were a real person, think of what the person would say to you, considering you just wrote that sentence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414653)

edit: except for ibanking, i also don't know of a job that is so demanding in terms of getting stuff done to completion as soon as the work comes in -- there is this very atypical default expectation that you just stay late or work over the weekend until the task is done.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414237)

Part of it is how biglaw firms are set up: you have lots of different bosses, and they dont give a fuck that you might have other work to do for other people - they want what they want. But even beyond that, because partners see even the "best" associates as disposable, they feel ok about grinding everyone into the ground.

Edit: there was a perfect post on TLS a few months ago:

The mid-levels and seniors I work for are all nice enough, but when push comes to shove, they will suck you dry for any amount of work that can even marginally increase their standings in partners' eyes. You have a family event that is very important to you that you flagged weeks in advance? Everyone will say that you need to go, but they'll still tell you to come in that weekend.

And that part someone mentioned about reading the phone book? It's more along the lines of "please read this phone book and summarize. Also, please read this other phone book and summarize. How long is reasonable? Four hrs per phone book? You have five to do both."

[5 hrs and 5 mins later, 11:05 pm] "WTF WHY DID THIS TAKE SO LONG AND WHY ISN'T THAT ONE PERSON'S PHONE NUMBER IN HERE THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T TELL YOU WTF WE ARE PAYING YOU A LOT OF MONEY TO ADD VALUE AND OMG THIS IS IMPORTANT AND YOU SUCK DO IT AGAIN YOU HAVE FOUR HOURS TO REDO BOTH PHONE BOOKS."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414757)

Associates are egotistical douchebags who can't manage worth shit. Some of them are the worst human beings I have ever met in my life and think they are god. They make 200k in MFH - they should realize they are a prole with no real life.

And the micro managing of some people drive me up the wall. And by micro managing I mean they bill 100% of their time to telling others what to do and don't do any real work themselves.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414790)

as a general rule, counsel level lawyers & 9-10 year associates are the absolute worst. they have a vested interest in ensuring that your work product is not viewed favorably.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26416181)

Three weeks later........."here are edits that you need to turn ASAP ASAP ASAP" "We didnt look at this until now."

They should kill themselves.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26414808)

Yup. Totally normal job. Just spoiled kids who don't know what real work is like. SMH.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26416219)

The partner is my favorite partner.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26417965)

the unpleasant elements of biglaw are almost universally unpleasant. there are brainless aspie gunners like drunkard or 29 who don't mind the day-in day-out inanity and useless nature of it all, and the ego boost they get out of being a BIGLAWYER helps them rationalize whatever they have trouble with. pretty much everyone else finds it grating and dreams of doing something else.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418057)

my point was that only a minority of normally adjusted people in biglaw think "man, this is really cushy, love my work - these suckers pay me too much!"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418105)

also, i find it odd that biglaw associates complain. Just look at our support staff. Paralegals put up the same hours almost, do FAR more mundane bullshit, and get paid less than half with no "partnership" prospects. We have text processing and IT folks who work overnight shifts on weekends, probably getting paid like 50-80k/year. And then there are doc reviewer staff attorneys or outside vendors who also bill by hour/project who get paid SPS. THen there are the ppl who prepare or deliver your seamless web meals at all hours.

As a biglaw associate, you're literally surrounded by ppl with far shittier jobs

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418753)

second, a large part of associate angst is probably mental - i spent all of this time and money to get here for THIS? and it doesn't ever get better?

Finally, for associates in debt, it begins to feel non-volitonal - that is, I'm not sure how long I can keep it up, but I also can't leave if I want to pay off my debt and have a normal middle class life. So you start to feel trapped.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418826)

i know some of the associates who left biglaw or my firm, sometimes after paying loans. Most were just entitled in attitude and careless/thoughtless in their work. One became a "fine artist." Basically, it's ppl who don't like the idea of responsibility and hard work

biglaw can suck at times, but any job that pays u a 150k+ base salary is like that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419034)

your experiences all sound atypically shitty, like a collection of the worst stereotypes and horror stories of biglaw

now late into my 4th year at a V20 in California in a busy group. I probably do 2200/year and it's pretty steady and manageable. I work a steady 40-60 hours during the week depending on how busy things are. On weekends, if things are busy, I might do another 10-15, but that's rare; usually it's more like 5. My superiors are all friendly and reasonable. Maybe I just lucked out on a good situation? This makes me hesitant about lateraling, which I sometimes think about doing, but not for any of the reasons ppl are bitching about on this thread.

for the most part, my coworker associates also seem generally OK with things

the only comment that i agree with on this thread is how shitty partnership odds are and it is discouraging when i look ahead

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418713)

in any event, the office isn't fratty, but chill. i think most SF/SV offices are similar. SF offices may be slightly more fratty given the more single demographic. SV is more relaxed (e.g., casual dress, work from home)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419382)

- The hours, as mediocre as they are now were on another level then. I have never pulled an all nighter in another job. It was routine in biglaw. That shit absolutely destroys you. And of course, no one in biglaw is impressed. It is simply expected. To be clear, they feel like they have total ownership of your time while you work for the firm. Doesn't matter if you had a vacation planned, a birthday to go to, or a wedding to attend. If your BB buzzes, you need to respond and if something became "urgent" (and it often does), then you need to cancel whatever you had planned and attend to it for as long as it takes.

- The caustic personalities whose entire self-worth revolves around the prestige of their position/firm and will drive you to the grave to ensure that they meet an arbitrary deadline to whoever they report to is beyond anything you see in normal corporate America. And when you work those long hours, this is who you're around.

- Corporate America doesn't have the job security it used to. But even in the "good old days" biglaw had shit job security and everything was "up or out." That permits the assholes described above to make a misplaced comma or God forbid a typo in an email a major career event.

I guess the one exception here is finance. Finance or elite consulting is as bad or worse. But normal jobs are just not that bad. The shit that flies in biglaw would be seen as completely unacceptable and oppressive in other jobs. And indeed, it only works in biglaw because they fully expect 90% of people to burn out by the 5th year. For most other places, they would consider that kind of employee churn to be catastrophic. So they treat them better.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26418950)

hours are steady 50-80 per week, usually closer to 50. It's like 10 more than in-house per week on average

the personalities at my current firm are all super-friendly and reasonable about everything

no one at my firm would call a few typos in a large document the end of anything

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419011)

ok, maybe you're one of "them"- those egotistical douchebag associates who think biglaw is fantastic and has never met anyone who is actually rich and thinks earning 200k working biglaw is "so so so much money"

the first sign? you work when you don't have to. the sad part that you don't realize is, especially if you're a litigator, your exit opps are SHIT. so why bother trying so hard now? realize now that your hard work and effort, if you're a litigator especially, will be worth nothing in the long run

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419039)

jobs are a lot better when you actually like them; i think that's the fundamental issue here for the complainers

i'd say at my firm, about 1/3 of the associates actually like the job a lot; 1/3 find it passable; the other 1/3 hate it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419092)

you must be boring and poor

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419111)

i suspect some of my the high billers in my firm pad their hours because they sure as hell aren't pulling legit late nights

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419067)

My work pace was just really steady. In that 2600 hr year, it was a lot of steady 9am-10pm days with another 10-15 hours on the weekend. That adds up to 50-55 billables a week

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419109)

and you worked pretty much 7 days a week?

how does your life NOT suck

nurses probably make far more money than you do per hour fwiw

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419129)

It's not that bad, it's 50-55 billed a week, which is a 65-80 hour work week.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419140)

sounds like a great life

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419151)

In-house, by 7pm or so the place is just empty. So when I say 50+ hours, I mean total time. Not "billed" hours, so I take out time waiting for shit. If I have to wait for something and it is 7pm, I'm going home and it is probably getting done tomorrow. It is just a very different experience. And some 8 hour days include shit like a few hours of training, or even catching up on some relevant reading. Hours aren't billable hours anymore, so if you're there it counts. So if you billed 2600 hours, then you worked more like 2800 or so (assuming you weren't padding).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419060)

i was pulling late nights all the time billing 2300

some people at my firm claim to bill 3000...yet they have weekends and don't look sleep deprived. many, many people think they pad.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419071)

"some people at my firm claim to bill 3000...yet they have weekends and don't look sleep deprived. many, many people think they pad."

They have to. Assuming they take almost no vacation except for occasional sick days, christmas, new year, etc. assume they bill the full 50 weeks a year. That means 60 hours/week. Which, is not easy to straight up bill. That means zero dry spells. Otherwise, if you have one week with no work then the next 6 weeks will need 70 hours/week to make up for it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419131)

so that means they bill 3000 in 11 months. it's completely unbelievable.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419142)

80 hours for me was 13-14 hours each weekday, plus another 15 on the weekend

EDIT: it was also 80 hours worked, not billed. Billed was like 60

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419121)

i saw the bill and the douche billed 2 hours to turning a doc to me

i checked my email records and he only edited the doc for 1 hour

so douchebag had billed twice what he actually worked

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419102)

when i billed 2200 i had 3 straight 250ish months and it was terrible. probably 7 or 8 all-nighters in that stretch

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26421550)

"I disagree, all the folks at my firm are quite nice and I find it more or less reasonable, and after all we do make a tidy sum," says the guy who every normal person at the firm cannot fucking stand.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26419573)

Also, if you litigate in state court, you can get away with stipping extensions forever, which wouldn't be tolerated in most federal cts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26581789)

if they think they have a decent chance of surviving sj they will want to push quickly to trial.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26581833)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XgSJUzYCGtc

Part of the problem with Biglaw is that you don't realize how bad it is until after you leave. Some of us have a high pain threshold. It's the same reason why we did well grinding in college while everyone else was drinking Busch light, why we went to law school, why we took the firm job to begin with. We think we are making a trade for the future and this is what having a "real job" is. So while everyone else is bitching, we are just like "it's not perfect but whatever."

When you finally do leave and you see how other people work, and how "it doesn't have to be this way," it makes you wonder why you never figured it out before. Some of the partners have never figured it out.

There is a reason why the system is set up to hire naive children who have never worked before and super study soulless Asians.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26582457)

http://www.anitaslove.com/about/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2686466&forum_id=2#26829344)