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Help me understand Lewontin's Fallacy (if it is a fallacy)
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:50 PM Author: Charcoal Apoplectic Jap what is this dumbass saying? The fact that there is more difference between outliers in a given race then there is between the medians of different races means there is no such thing as race?
So, for example, if you took a group of 1000 white people with a mean IQ of 100 (and a range from 130 to 70) and compared it to a group of Hispanics with a mean IQ of 90 (and a range from 120 to 60) the fact that 100-90=10 is overshadowed by the fact that 130-70=60? Is that what this guy is saying or is he making an argument related to allele frequency or genetics or something? Serious Q. Help me understand. |
Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:51 PM Author: diverse nubile orchestra pit national security agency Clearly this dumbass has not heard of CPk
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:51 PM Author: Vivacious lemon indirect expression boistinker what was the understanding of alleles and haplogroups and allele incidence/frequency when lewontin made his silly supposition in 1972? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288090) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:53 PM Author: Charcoal Apoplectic Jap no clue, I'm just asking about the specifics of what and rose were saying. I've heard well respected people repeat the mantra of "differences between<differnces within" and I'm wondering how this works. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288104) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:00 PM Author: Thriller Home just a quick search indicated that they were talking about allele frequencies at certain loci. that is white people will have an allele at loci x with a say a A to G SNP. blacks will have say the normal A. For example, the gene that codes for the ability to digest lactose. now in the aggregate - given the frequencies off different alles at the loci we are looking at - are there allele frequency patterns that give a resemblance of "race"?
"Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins agreed with Edwards' view and summarized it as "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance." |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:03 PM Author: Vivacious lemon indirect expression boistinker the lewontin problem is that it devolved into a very inaccurate shorthand phrase for dumbs along the lines of "there's no such thing as race," which is simply incorrect if we are using genetic terms.
but people in general have a tough time dealing with concepts such as "incidence" and "proportion" and especially chained/correlated incidences of multiple factors. they want simple yes/no resolutions. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:07 PM Author: Thriller Home i loled hard when i realized that the haplo groups resembled the nazi phrenology groups. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288205) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:08 PM Author: soul-stirring school It didn't devolve into that. Lewontin made the argument himself and everyone repeated it. He is simply another one of the dishonest critics of human biodiversity in academia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288214) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:54 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib not really. lewontin is basically arguing that if you were to look solely at the genetic information for people from all around the world, without knowing how many races there are, or what the races are, you would not be able to figure it out solely by examining genes and grouping people according to similar genetic makeup. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288111) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:54 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles I think the non-flame argument about "there is no such thing as race" is this: there are definitely "populations" of people who intermarry a lot and have a distinct genetic profile (like Italians, Ethiopians, Ashkenazi Jews, etc.), but what we think of as race is dependent on the social/political context.
Greeks are white, Persians are not because of 9/11 or something. "East Asians" are all one race, but there are a million South Asian races, etc (or maybe you vehemently disagree with that statement). It's all totally arbitrary, and there's no one precise way to classify people. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:57 PM Author: Charcoal Apoplectic Jap I don't think it's possible to argue that there aren't aspects of what we call race that are socially constructed, e.g. mulattos are considered black despite varying degrees of racial admixture. But that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as objectively delineated boundaries of racial groupings. We may have a nasally jew argument over where to draw the line, but so what? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288139) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:09 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles "But that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as objectively delineated boundaries of racial groupings."
so what's the 'objectively delineated boundary' of the white race? I don't give a shit about your dumb law school memes. There is no line. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:13 PM Author: Navy Police Squad sorry about your continuum fallacy bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288243) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:15 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles yeah, no, this has nothing to do with that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288256) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:18 PM Author: Navy Police Squad uh, yeah it does. Your suggesting that because there isn't a clear demarcation between (among) genetic clusters that there's no such thing as an objectively white race. I may disagree with yanagita's particular language but his point is valid.
Look at this:
http://mindsetdoc.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/bwcontinuum.jpg?w=900
If you can't tell me exactly where the color White begins/ends that means there's no such thing as white as a category. Idiotic. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:21 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles I'm saying: why do we think of the "white race" which has a number of distinct groups (even genetically), while the Japanese consider ethnic Koreans to be a separate race -- and the Germans in 1930 thought Ashkenazi Jews were also a separate race.
The distinction between two populations as two races is often political. Obviously no one would suggest that swedes and ethiopians are the same race, but there is no pure biological reason to separate Koreans and Japenese but not the French and English. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:22 PM Author: Navy Police Squad right. that's where the question of line drawing comes in. Haven't we all conceded that there is a large dash of politics/construction that goes into these divisions? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288307) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:24 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles I think that's exactly what I mean when I see a statement about race being a social construct. Why some naive libs think there are no genetic differences between swedes and ethiopians is not relevant to my point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288317) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:11 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib the question isn't whether there are objective genetic differences between populations identified as being of different races--of course there are, or people wouldn't be able to tell different races apart, and they in fact can. the question is whether one could identify what the races are solely based on genetic information.
take a trivial example: if you gave someone genetic information from a bunch of mushrooms, a bunch of cats, and a bunch of fresh water fish, didn't tell the person how many groups were represented, they'd find the three groups pretty quickly based solely on genetic information. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:12 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles >"the question isn't whether there are objective genetic differences between populations identified as being of different races--of course there are, or people wouldn't be able to tell different races apart, and they in fact can."
Bullshit. Unless your races are "White, East Asian, Black, and South Asian." But of course as we've already discussed, most people subdivide further. The point is that (nasally kike) there is no way to actually draw the lines. The point isn't that no one can distinguish between a Congolese man and a Swede.
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:13 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib what do you disagree with (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288238) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:14 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles see above. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288246) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:16 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib how do you think people distinguish between members of different races (however they subdivide races) if not on the basis of biological attributes? what are they grouping on? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288263) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:19 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles Sometimes on the basis of visibility. But a lot of times, it's political. For example, German Jews in the 1930s. The Japanese think of the Koreans as a separate race, when they're very genetically similar and to white people in the US there is no difference (it's like saying the French and British are separate races).
The fact that you don't understand that racial divisions can be totally arbitrary and political is kind of sad. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:21 PM Author: Thriller Home we are talking about taxonomy not cultural prejudices. if you had all these genomes would they sort in to groups based on SNP polymorphisms at various loci? i'd say yes. there more loci you look at, the more certain your sorting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288294) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:22 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles yeah, and you'd end up with sorting into populations like Greeks, Italians, Russians, Koreans, and Chinese! That's not how Americans think of race. So is our taxonomy politicized? YES (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288302) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:23 PM Author: Thriller Home the way they would sort could depend on the number of loci you look at. for example, we know irish have a fucked up dopamine thing going on. that would make them different form the greeks, but we are talking in the aggregate. many loci. maybe 100s. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288314) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:24 PM Author: Navy Police Squad so now you've moved onto "how Americans think of race". Keep dancing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288318) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:21 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib ok, i'm convinced. i retract the statement that racial difference always correspond to some biological difference. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288296) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:22 PM Author: naked peach library fat ankles excellent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288308) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:13 PM Author: Vivacious lemon indirect expression boistinker yeah, you can, if you had two data sets: the full genome sequence of the mystery person, and a set of the genomes of many individuals. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288241) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:14 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib no, the question is whether you can derive the number of races and their membership without knowing what the races are and without knowing anything about who belongs together in the same race. the only information you have is the genetic makeup of a bunch of people. they're all mystery persons. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288248) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:17 PM Author: Vivacious lemon indirect expression boistinker yes, easily, provided that the genomes are complete. you'd have to write a computer program to search for cross-associations, and they'd sort readily into what we'd cognize as "race" if the groupings were linked with photos. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288267) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:18 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib so you're saying that lewontin just screwed up his analysis, and failed to do what you say could be done easily. this isn't edwards' argument (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288275) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:17 PM Author: Thriller Home "hmmm.... these guys have the lactose thing go in bucket 1. these guys have the sickle cell thing. in to bucket two." etc etc.
it would be crude but it would roughly correspond to what we have. |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:19 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib you're cheating. you know that lactose tolerance and sickle cell are significant for the "correct" racial groupings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288281) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:21 PM Author: Thriller Home that's what you are missing. it's just sequences of letters. a computer would find the differences. we could but it would take forever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288298) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:24 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib why do you think a computer would sort people into buckets resembling commonly conceived racial groupings? what's the basis for this conclusion? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288321) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:29 PM Author: Thriller Home lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288357) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:31 PM Author: Stubborn shrine shitlib that's all? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288374) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 9:57 PM Author: multi-colored native there is less allele frequency variability between races than between randomly chosen individuals. it is a statement about genetics rather than traits. the conclusion that race doesn't exist because of this fact does not follow at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288140) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2013 10:10 PM Author: Thriller Home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2394583&forum_id=2#24288222) |
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