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Jesus Christ BIGLAW is FUCKED [law review article]
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:25 PM Author: Territorial Lascivious Weed Whacker Juggernaut http://hosted.law.wisc.edu/wordpress/lawreview/files/2010/08/1-Ribstein.pdf (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905730) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:26 PM Author: Razzle quadroon "Big law" is a meme that started on pr/xo, isn't it? Impressive that a meme that originated on a racist, misogynist law school board is now in law reviews. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905739) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:29 PM Author: Heady Bossy Office Why do you assume "Big Law" started here? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905758) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:29 PM Author: Razzle quadroon i didnt "assume" that; i asked. i THINK it kind of originated here but im not sure. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905762) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:30 PM Author: hyperventilating motley site athletic conference it did not originate here. see "greedy associates," c. 1999 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905776) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:32 PM Author: Razzle quadroon ok. tyft.
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:25 PM Author: flushed azn "Biglaw" has been around at least since the Infirmation/Greedy Associates days. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906198) |
Date: August 28th, 2010 5:28 PM Author: Peach state I stopped reading here: "Few industries have suffered more visibly from the financial meltdown of 2008–2009 than the nation’s largest law firms" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905754) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:29 PM Author: Razzle quadroon i would like for you to refudiate that statement (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905759) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:32 PM Author: Peach state Biglaw lost 4% of its lawyers. Big fucking deal. Would you rather be in real estate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905793) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:33 PM Author: Razzle quadroon tbf, aside from real estate and SOME parts of the financial sector, what other industries really suffered? i think his statement is generally accurate and it's kind of lame to pompously say "OMG I STOPPED READING HERE" like the guy who wrote this article is some sort of retard.
edit: additionally, he says few industries suffered more VISIBLY--meaning there were widely publicized rounds of immense layoffs. on further inspection, seems his article is correct and your RC is shitty. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:41 PM Author: Peach state The general population outside of lawyers has no idea about the "immense layoffs." Its only VISIBLE to lawyers. And again, losing 4% of the workforce is not "immense" by any reasonable interpretation.
For the past 2 years, every tv station has been talking about how fucked real estate is. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:42 PM Author: Razzle quadroon So far you've done nothing to cast doubt on what he said in that sentence, much less refudiate it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905890) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:59 PM Author: Peach state Yeah, you're right. The economic news stories on the major outlets generally went: 'real estate fucked, auto fucked, travel fucked, wall street collapsing, biglaw lays off 6% and holds 1st year salaries at $160k.'
There are some huge problems in the biglaw model, but it has absolutely not been one of the most visible stories. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:21 PM Author: Zombie-like khaki church mother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906163) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 10:09 PM Author: Lemon Floppy Idiot Base Hi Sarah Palin! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15907966) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:01 PM Author: Excitant kink-friendly hairy legs tanning salon Construction? Travel? The auto industry? Take your pick, really. Biglaw was practically unscathed compared to the rest of the economy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906041) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:33 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown Why not be in both? (Earl) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905807) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:35 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur Few professions have barriers to entry of $150k. For a profession you have to sell your house to enter, losing 4% of its jobs is a fucking holocaust. 4% got fired and 2 years worth of graduates never so much as got hired to begin with.
What's a real estate agent out if he cant sell houses anymore? $1K for his license?
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:38 PM Author: Peach state saying its a horrible time to try to enter the profession is obvious, but saying the profession itself is over is quite another. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905853) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:42 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur There are serious structural changes going on in the business. It isnt just about the economy. Between outsourcing to India and outsourcing to Ohio and West Virginia, the traditional NYC/DC biglaw model is being morphed into something new. Talk to recruiters and hiring partners. There is less work for entry level associates today. Firms are creating tiers of associates. Staff and temp attorneys are becoming more common and big firms are opening up cheap satellite offices in bumfuck jurisdictions where their lawyers are being paid 60k a year. Only a decade ago there was practically no such thing as temp lawyers.
In 10 years the number of entry level lit associate openings will probably be 50% what it was at its peak. We have a long way to fall IMHO.
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:43 PM Author: Peach state "We have a long way to fall IMHO."
You could be right. But it hasnt happened yet. And the struggles that occurred sure as hell have not been visible to people outside the industry. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:45 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur GM didnt go belly up in one year and neither will the Vault 10 but the model we're used to is broken and is already morphing into something new.
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:46 PM Author: boyish sticky nibblets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905924) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:49 PM Author: Peach state Again, I'm not saying the biglaw model is bullet proof. Quite the contrary. I am strongly asserting that biglaw has not yet been visibly shaken to the outside world. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905947) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:55 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur Between XO morphing into what JDunderground was, ATL morphing into Tom the Temp, Tom the Temp going insane, and L4L going apeshit on his blog and in the WSJ, I think the profession has taken a big enough hit already. This board used to be all about how we were all going to spend our bonuses on boats and now its Armageddon. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905997) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:57 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown Or in your case, minivans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906015) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:04 PM Author: Peach state right, and nobody knows this except us (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906071) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:45 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown The hiring is down 50% or more so it has happened dumbass. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905918) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:48 PM Author: Peach state The profession doesnt depend on a year or two of incoming associates. If PPP were down 50% you would have a point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905939) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:49 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown Partners are being cannibalized as well. If there are 50% fewer partners, is it a problem yet? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905950) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:52 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur You arent hired into the profession as a partner. Newbies are the ones being screwed friend. You'll simply never be given the chance to make partner. PPP is a meaningless statistic for associates. There are 30-50 lawyer PI firms with PPP of 5 million a year that dwarf the PPP numbers for any Vault firm, but nobody aspires to be the 90k a year associate at one of those mills. For one thing, unless you share the same last name as one of the partners on the letterhead you will never make partner. Plenty of medium sized firms are basically family run shops where the advancement potential is zero and there is no real lockstep. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905971) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:55 PM Author: Peach state wtf are you talking about. that has nothing to do with whether biglaw has been one of the most visibly hit industries ite. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905989) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:57 PM Author: Indigo bisexual voyeur Very simple, the PPP numbers dont tell you shit about the health of the profession and the entry level hiring does. PPP is only doing okay because they cannibalized staff. For every lawyer they fired they also let go like 2 support personnel too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906014) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:03 PM Author: Peach state look dood, for the 3rd time im well aware of the problems. but they havent been anywhere near as visible as the true hallmarks of the recession like real estate being fucked, auto being fucked, and parts of wall street being fucked. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906062) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:06 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown That's because law is harder to relate to for the average person. You wear suits and deal with a bunch of boring paperwork. Most people have a house, a car, etc. Finance is visible only because those companies got wiped out overnight. Law firms die a slow death and can keep it under wraps from media attention since they aren't publicly traded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906076) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:10 PM Author: Peach state "That's because law is harder to relate to for the average person."
no shit, im disagreeing with this authors absurd idea that "few industries have suffered more visibly from the financial meltdown" than biglaw.
biglaw's problems havent even scratched the surface of the national conscience. nor should they compared to the problems in other industries.
"Finance is visible only because those companies got wiped out overnight" ================== That, and you know, they wiped out large portions of the broad economy with them. Brooks brothers probably got a little worried when firms started imploding but the effect of biglaw on the broad economy is pretty minimal.
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:26 PM Author: Aromatic Lay Coffee Pot "unless you share the same last name as one of the partners on the letterhead you will never make partner."
This is incorrect. You can also make partner by being one hell of a trial lawyer. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:44 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown It's about time liberal shitholes like DC and NYC died. Small towns ftw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905908) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:49 PM Author: Razzle quadroon titcp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905949) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:50 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown Small towns are the future because of chem/bio/nuclear terrorism. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905958) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:04 PM Author: vibrant skinny woman the kikes had the sand nigs nuke those towers, so we would turn into a nation of small sweatshops? makes sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906070) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:53 PM Author: Peach state Its not just residential agents. Its manufacturers, construction, contractors, commercial re. Thats the kind of VISIBLE shit you see on the news. Not "BigLaw firm freezes 1st year lawyer salaries." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905979) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:57 PM Author: Appetizing Corn Cake Clown There is an article every other day about how laid off BIGLAW lawyers found true happiness in 38K shitPI. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906012) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:08 PM Author: sapphire laughsome main people They didn't just lose ppl. They stopped hired new ppl. And the ppl who are still there are struggling to make billables and those billables will most likely be hard to collect. HTFMH. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906089) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:33 PM Author: Cowardly Internal Respiration Bawdyhouse it'll take him a bit to hypothulate a response (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905802) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:57 PM Author: cobalt stubborn boltzmann titcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906019) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:33 PM Author: Olive aphrodisiac den Is this a student note? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905803) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:33 PM Author: Territorial Lascivious Weed Whacker Juggernaut Seems like a prof @ UIUC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905808) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:34 PM Author: Razzle quadroon seriously. seems like a prole wrote this. Larry E. Ribstein
Professor Larry E. Ribstein is the Mildred Van Voorhis Jones Chair in Law and the associate dean for Research, University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Ribstein is the author of leading treatises on limited liability companies (Ribstein & Keatinge on Limited Liability Companies) and partnership law (Bromberg & Ribstein on Partnerships), as well as two business associations casebooks (Ribstein & Lipshaw, Unincorporated Business Entities, 4th edition 2009) and Ribstein & Letsou, Business Associations, 4th edition, 2003). His books also include The Sarbanes-Oxley Debacle and The Constitution and the Corporation (both with Henry Butler), The Law Market (with Erin O'Hara), The Rise of the Uncorporation and The Economics of Federalism (with Kobayashi).
From 1998-2001 he was co-editor of the Supreme Court Economic Review. Ribstein has written or co-authored approximately 150 articles on subjects including corporate, securities and partnership law, constitutional law, bankruptcy, film, the internet, family law, professional ethics and licensing, uniform laws, choice of law, and jurisdictional competition
Mildred Van Voorhis Jones Chair Associate Dean for Research
Ribstein Phone: (217) 244-9881 Email: ribstein@illinois.edu
J.D. University of Chicago Law School B.A. Johns Hopkins University
Courses
Business Organizations Market Regulation Unincorporated Business and Securities |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:40 PM Author: Tantric Concupiscible Lettuce He is widely respected in his areas of study. I mean like top 10 if not top 5. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905870) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:41 PM Author: Razzle quadroon tbf, noted xo poaster "FiredFrank" STOPPED READING after his first sentence.
http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905754 |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:13 PM Author: Vivacious institution this may be the most killself-worthy comment any poster has ever made here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906124) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:37 PM Author: disgusting nubile gunner garrison outted (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905844) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 5:44 PM Author: sapphire laughsome main people Oh thank GOD! Ha ha fuckers! FUCK ALL OF YOU TO HELL! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15905909) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:12 PM Author: dun vigorous address just patent the poison pill bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906121) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:13 PM Author: Vivacious institution noticeably missing from this article is any discussion of bootstraps. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906126) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:32 PM Author: insane university Hate to break it you, but Larry Ribstein is a massive douche. The only thing you have to know about this article is that it's just another way for that shithead to bang the drum for turning law firms into publicly traded entities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906231) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 6:55 PM Author: vibrant skinny woman lol. the first step is always denial. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906384) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:05 PM Author: insane university Whatever you want to think. Ribstein has been spinning the same argument for a long time. This article just repackages the same old thing to make it seem like it's the only way to go. Nevermind the fact that going public isn't going to save law firms from anything.
Also, if you think working at a firm sucks now, just wait until they go public. Goodbye car service. Goodbye perks. Goodbye hoping to one day have some measure of control because you are a partner. Lawyers at firms that go public will basically become cubicle jockeys like most of the rest of the workers in this country.
Plus, Ribstein always tries to act like the real ethical barrier to publicly traded law firms is the bar on sharing profits with non-lawyers. This is false. The problem is that lawyers owe a duty to their client alone. If law firms were publicly traded, lawyers would then have a duty to both shareholders and clients, and in many cases, what is good for shareholders may not be good for clients and vice versa. Say, for example, that you know that you might be able to resolve a litigation matter quickly by filing a motion to dismiss or a motion for summary judgment, but if you do that, your firm will bring in less revenue for shareholders. What should you do? |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:08 PM Author: vibrant skinny woman "Also, if you think working at a firm sucks now, just wait until they go public. Goodbye car service. Goodbye perks. Goodbye hoping to one day have some measure of control because you are a partner. Lawyers at firms that go public will basically become cubicle jockeys like most of the rest of the workers in this country."
yea, no shit. this is what i was laughing at.
"Say, for example, that you know that you might be able to resolve a litigation matter quickly by filing a motion to dismiss or a motion to summary judgment, but if you do that, your firm will bring in less revenue for shareholders. What should you do?"
you serve the client, idiot. that builds the "brand," increasing shareholder value in the long term. (not to mention that in-house counsel would call bullshit anyway). |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:12 PM Author: insane university Shareholders often demand profits in the short term, friend, and you can't argue that there's no conflict there. You also fail to recognize the ways in which lawyers can manipulate situations to get their clients to do what the lawyer wants, even in-house counsel. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906522) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:17 PM Author: vibrant skinny woman wtf? every fucking company must strike a balance between the needs of both clients & shareholders. law factories are not unique snowflakes in this regard.
READ: conflicts are everywhere in capitalism. it's up to you to figure out how to keep everyone happy and keep yourself out of court/jail. if that's too much for you to handle, move to the wilderness and live deliberately. |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 10:44 PM Author: insane university The relationship between a buyer and a seller, which is the typical relationship in which a corporation finds itself, isn't the same as the attorney-client relationship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15908123) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 9:04 PM Author: demanding stimulating liquid oxygen range I would absolutely love to be a partner prior to the firm going public. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15907514) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 10:45 PM Author: insane university Yeah, it would be great for whoever is a partner at the time, but it would be bad for everyone else. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15908130) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:07 PM Author: passionate marketing idea really tough guy legal academia is such a fucking farce. i can't believe this gay shit passes scholarship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906487) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:09 PM Author: Fragrant Travel Guidebook gonna need to hear ja rule's thoughts on this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1408223&forum_id=2#15906503) |
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Date: August 28th, 2010 7:14 PM Author: passionate marketing idea really tough guy Y is this article interesting? at least half of this board has been living in the shit for the past 2 yrs.
this guy has nothing new to say. as per usual legal education/academics are 50 fucking yrs behind the times |