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LawProf (and former COA clerk), Taking Questions
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:19 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Here and there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762595) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:20 PM Author: Mewling Underhanded Lay salary? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762601) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:21 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Very good. Obviously, not as good as the law firm, but quite comfortable and outstanding benefits. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762611) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:23 PM Author: Mewling Underhanded Lay what's the need to be vague on something like this? there are 250 schools you could be working at. jesus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762627) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:23 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce More than $100,000, how's that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762631) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:26 PM Author: red hell nowag Is it considered very good in your market, taking COL into consideration? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762653) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:27 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I think so. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762661) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:27 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness when you were a clerk and met 3L clerkship applicants that interviewed with your judge, did you usually come up with a clear favorite for who you would have picked?
what were some of the strengths of the better candidates in your opinion?
thanks. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:30 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Pretty easily. The applications were basically the final cut of people who were quite qualified. But at that point, it mattered more who was going to be in a small office of six people for a full year than anything else. The interviews make it very easy to figure out who you'd want to spend a year with in close quarters.
Strengths of the better candidates were confidence, clarity, a sense of humor, and minimal awkwardness. The people who second-guessed themselves, bumbled around, or seemed a little out of place weren't a fit. But it can vary chambers to chambers, I'm sure. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:36 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness thanks.
what percent of the students who interviewed were aspie and hard to talk to? could some just simply not hold a conversation? and for those who talked alot, were there some candidates who wouldn't shut up?
also, if the judge gives you alot of compliments about your qualifications, writing sample, etc. - was that common in your chambers and does it mean anything. i'm sure it varies chambers to chambers but i was shocked at this when i interviewed. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:37 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Most of them were okay, but there were always a couple who were pretty horrible interviewers. I can't think of anyone who talked too much.
I don't think my judge was overly complimentary. He definitely had kind but fairly pro forma comments for everyone, indiciating that they had great credentials, they obviously knew how to write, etc., and that's why they were invited. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:38 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness thanks. what's your take on thank you notes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762734) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:45 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I was never a big fan of them, mostly because the decisions were already made--for our judge, they were made basically the moment we had the last interview. But I guess they couldn't hurt. It's just a little odd to get a hand-written thank-you note three days after you've rejected a person. That post office can't move quickly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762785) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:47 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness i agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762808) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:40 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness sorry, one last one. did your judge span his interview process over 3 weeks? if he did, were candidates notified at any point with 1) yes you have a good shot 2) thank you but we're going to pass on your app? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762749) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:45 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Mine didn't, so I wouldn't know. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762792) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:46 PM Author: pink stage twinkling uncleanness thanks for your comments. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762799) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:18 PM Author: lilac filthy dilemma Is this really what you wanted to do with your life when you were little? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763057) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:21 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Probably something along these lines since I was in junior high. I think I always thought being a "teacher" or a "writer" were great ideas but entirely impractical. And I always liked the idea of being a lawyer. So I get to merge all three. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763073) |
Date: August 11th, 2010 2:21 PM Author: primrose sandwich area of expertise? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762607) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:22 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I haven't revealed it here yet, and I'd prefer not to say, sorry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762614) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:26 PM Author: Ivory Fear-inspiring Meetinghouse Round Eye Do you feel dirty stealing money from law students who believe that the investment in law school will lead to employment? Does it gnaw at you that you are at best irrelevant and at worst a drain on society? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762649) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:27 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Well then. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762656) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:31 PM Author: Rose locale electric furnace how does it feel knowing you could never win a case against any of the firms submitting briefs to you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762690) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:32 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce As in, I couldn't hack it in practice? I resigned myself to a life moping about my inadequacies with rocky road and cheap wine. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762697) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:37 PM Author: Rose locale electric furnace it's a contemplative, harsh, and intellectual life being a litigation partner. you basically cashed in your chips early, but at least you learned the depths of your inability thanks to a fed judge gambling on your intellect/workload capacity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762720) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:33 PM Author: wonderful haunting partner school do you think most law review articles are useful to people who aren't law professors or law review editors? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762699) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:36 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Depends on "usefulness," of course. As in, practical? Some are very practical, and others are not so practical. But part of that can turn on the subject, too--tax or procedure articles are going to be, on the whole, more "practical" than constitutional law.
But they can certainly influence a number of law professors, who in turn may become judges or political advisors or talking heads on television or teaching classes to 100 impressionable 1Ls each year presenting a very particular perspective on the law.
I try to avoid articles at a very high level of abstraction and provide at least some practical application. But it's hit-or-miss: you might pick a subject you think is hot, ripe, and ready, only to unload it and find that the issue has fizzled from public opinion, Congress isn't about to legislate, and the issue is dormant. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:40 PM Author: Rose locale electric furnace lr articles are useless. statutes then cases then legislative history then newspaper/magazine articles then law reviews. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762748) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:35 PM Author: Soul-stirring bearded point 4 questions:
1. Is there honestly a difference between some B and B+ exams.
2. Are you at a lower T1?
3. Secondary journals: worth it?
4. How many students should drop out after 1L? |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:43 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce 1. Yes, and I assume you mean in a B-curved class. B exams are fairly average; B+ exams are better. I guess I don't know what else to say. But when adding up the points, the, say, 42 and 43 exams are differen than the 47 and 48 exams. It's just looking for that natural break in the class to give the curve. 2. I'm not at a T14 or a fourth-tier school. I think that's all I've revealed. 3. Depends on "worth it." Some law firms and some judges may care more about it. It may signal that you're not lazy. You learn the Bluebook really, really well, which can save a little time in practice. Maybe you like reading articles and want to be forced to write something yourself. And it's a line on your resume that can never be taken away. But I know plenty of people who didn't enjoy it, didn't find it to be beneficial enough during the job hunt, and thought it was a waste of time. Frankly, this all may depend on the quality of the secondary journal (we all know there are hierarchies). 4. That's a hard question. Frankly, some. It probably varies by the school. But this is, I think, more of an issue of the greater philosophical questions of education. Do we think that everyone "can" be a lawyer? If not, what limits do we put on that? Should we discourage people who may not have done well their first year but really, truly want to be lawyers from fulfilling their dream? What if they accept that they'll have a difficult time finding employment or even just passing the bar? So I don't know. I know that's not really satisfying. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:57 PM Author: Soul-stirring bearded point I appreciate 1-3, but your #4 is a cop-out given the serious limitations of this economy.
thanks, though. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:02 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I know it's a cop-out. But I'd add some caveats. First, financial considerations matter. If someone has the military paying their tuition or some wealthy family member, the calculus can change. Second, it depends on what you want to do. If you've always wanted to make partner at an international law firm, then you probably should drop out. If you just want to serve as a guardian at litem and deal with child custody disputes the rest of your life, then maybe it's not unreaslistic for you to stay. The economy is certainly bruising the options of new attorneys, but that's where the perspective and situation matters. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762915) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:47 PM Author: peach field Do you explain to your students that most of what they have read and will read from the law school regarding employment prospects post-graduation is a huge pile of bullshit? This part would trouble me a lot, especially if I was teaching at a mediocre law school. I would live in constant fear that some disgruntled, jobless 3L would snap and come to school with a gun or just roam the halls punching every member of the faculty that he saw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763320) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:45 PM Author: Fragrant Scarlet Sanctuary Everyone always says, "Get to know your professors," etc. What percentage of students that approach you just annoy you? What do the ones you actually like (to the extent that you would write a recommendation) have in common? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762790) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:47 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce "Just to annoy me"? I guess I'm something of the exception. I genuinely like talking to students and helping them, even if I'm just a sounding board, as they plan their careers. I may not be very "useful" to many of them (e.g., I'm not going to write them a letter of recommendation to a federal judge, and I may not even know anyone in the town they want to practice), but I like mentoring as best I can, even if it's little things like picking classes or thinking about career paths. But I'd say the number of students who approach is pretty small, and I'm certainly one of the more approachable professors (pretty broad office hours, frequent open door, etc.). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762809) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:02 PM Author: bateful ultramarine chapel wait, you won't write them a LoR in any circumstances? if so, why? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762911) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:07 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Depends on the position, of course. I'll tell someone pretty bluntly if I don't think they have a very good shot at clerking and that I can offer a pretty basic letter describing their personality and that I had them in class, if that's what they really want. I think it's silly to build up false hope in students and write a pretty miserable letter of recommendation. And I can't go around saying that everyone is the greatest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762957) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:10 PM Author: bateful ultramarine chapel okay, if that's what you meant in the previous poast, that's fair enough.
hey, i'm neither in law nor planning on attending LS, but i always enjoy your threads. hope you drop by moar often. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:08 PM Author: Fragrant Scarlet Sanctuary Thanks for the quick response and thanks for making this thread.
I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to approach my professors for advice without annoying them. I can't help but thinking along the lines of "Why would a professor want to help me?" and "What do I have to give back to a professor?" Seems like you just enjoy helping students. But you called yourself the exception... Could you describe the general attitudes toward students of your colleagues? |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:12 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Again, it can vary widely. Some view students as basically a necessary evil for them to do their research. Others will be far more welcoming. It can't hurt to go talk to a professor and get a feel from that 10 minute conversation where they stand. Or e-mail to ask a question and see if they answer--some flat-out won't.
For "giving back," if you're a good student, it can stoke their ego if you clerk for a judge because of them, or end up being a research assistant to them, or credit them in a Note footnote because of their advice. Some professors care about their ego like that and want to see you succeed if it makes them look good. But, again, you're only as "useful" to them as your ability could take you. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:47 PM Author: Rose locale electric furnace describe fucking or the closest you came to fucking a hot 1L who's too dumb for law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762810) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:47 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube hey i summoned you in another thread but i guess i will just ask my question here.
don't you think that law school is an absolute joke and complete waste of time? as a professor, i mean. my professors at a top school were incredibly credentialed and knew their material back to front, regularly appeared as expert witnesses or litigated stuff in the public interest, etc. class time was spent gchatting and playing cards. none of us learned anything from the professors we couldn't have learned from hornbooks; most of us didn't need hornbooks since other students made outlines. isn't there something strange about getting the top legal minds in the country to throw away hours of their time just so the future top legal minds of the country can throw away hours of their time pretending to listen to them, just to buttress the strength of an academic credential widely assumed to mean nothing in actual legal practice? |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:53 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Ouch, a harsh and cynical view.
Let's set aside the pedagogical question, where some people can learn far more from a classroom lecture or discussion format than just reading a hornbook.
And let's assume that you're going to transition to the life of an advocate fairly easily, where you can digest cases quickly (lots of people can't understand a case when they walk into law school, and hornbooks can't necessarily help you read cases), speak on your feet well (I've had people come to my office in tears at the prospect of being called on), and write an exam applying facts to law well.
Good professors (and it sounds like you didn't really have many, which is a shame) should be going beyond some rote recitation of the law to a greater and more holistic understanding of the law, including why we got here and why it matters and what implications it has. Hornbooks, if they have that information at all, have it in, at best, perfunctory language.
But if we're (and I'm being aspirational here) trying to train minds how to think about the law, it requires a kind of greater perspective about what law is than just a bare recitation of black letter law (which plenty of law schools do in a three-year bar prep course).
Too aspirational and lofty? Maybe. But it's my goal, anyway. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:53 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube does holism play a role in your exams? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762873) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:00 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I try. There's usually some policy-oriented question, even if it's a fairly small component. And I intentionally focus on ambiguities or uncertainties in the law. It's one thing to say, "This is the duty, and this is the breach, and this is the causation, and this is the damage." That's the black letter law. But it's another to take the facts to an area of the law that's not easily laid out in a hornbook because there are tensions in the holdings, or uncertainties, or developing technologies, or whatever it may be. That's where the perspective of the subject should (again, aspirational) come through most clearly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762900) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:01 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube and dealing with policy questions takes a lot of prep, you think? i had a model answer to a policy question for an exam in a class whose materials i did not touch beforehand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762907) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:03 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Doing policy correctly should. Again, it sounds like you had some bad professors who were happy to take anything you threw at them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762922) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:04 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube and a better professor would test me more rigorously on history, policy, philosophy, holism etc.? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762931) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:57 PM Author: umber frum nursing home what he said described my law school experience. I basically just stopped going to class. About two weeks before the exam, I would read an old outline. It almost appeared to be an hilarious kafka-esque joke where the idea of class was so deranged that I question the mental health of anyone who would go ever day and keep notes. I am absolutely certain that the whole point of the teaching methodology was to do it in a way so that the professors didn't have do to any work. All and all the only thing that law school did for me was to think that law professors are shit human beings and lawyers are pseudo intellectual assholes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762889) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 2:59 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube this guy is hilarious because it seems like he really thinks that the history or policy or philosophy of the law is really important. how many points do you think it gets on the exam? how often does it come up outside of a high-level appellate question, and do you really think you're going to convince a judge to change his or her mind on those points? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762895) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:01 PM Author: umber frum nursing home the whole thing is retarded. this country is shit and will continue to be shit until we get rid of these fucks. I would almost prefer a theocracy at this point - at least the cardinal/rabbi/mullah believes the shit he is trying to apply. All we get is shuck and jive from these fucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762908) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:03 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube the basic existentialism of legal thought is hilarious given the mechanical and bureaucratic countenance of its practitioners (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762925) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:06 PM Author: umber frum nursing home Speaking as a former philosophy student from a real philosophy program, they don't even do the Socratic method correctly. You are supposed to lead the person to the answer not "stump" them on a minor, irrelevant fact or point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762952) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:08 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube yeah law school socratic is embarrassingly sophomoric (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762964) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:11 PM Author: umber frum nursing home "so were these mason jars or jelly jars" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762990) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:20 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube "take a side! don't be afraid!" *student takes a side* "well, can't you see that there are two sides to this issue?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763067) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:02 PM Author: nubile sweet tailpipe dood, the prof's job is to maintain the mystique of law. as a practitioner, your job is to handle the real issues. HTH. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762914) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:07 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762962) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:05 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea dont be a silly faggot. history and philosophy of law are important in the same ways that history and philosophy of any practical (lol) field are important. its always good to be able to ground yourself by having a sense of where things are coming from; in fact youd think that someone who sees law (if i can extrapolate accurately from your thoughts on law school) as a bunch of pointless rote memorization would find this guys attitude refreshing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762939) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:07 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube the question is more about the rhetorical confusion between the practice of law as a largely forgetful and ahistorical discipline and this guy's holism. i'm not saying i don't prefer his stance (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762956) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:09 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea i guess all im saying is that law school would prob be even more of a shithole if it were as mechanical and soulless as the actual practice, and youre shitting on this guy for tryna keep it from being that way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762977) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:12 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube not having attended law school it's difficult for you to realize that there are a shit-ton of different ways that this guy's holism could actually work out in practice. maybe he teaches property. if that's the case, he probably teaches arcane fucking stupid rules and old british history and cites shit like those roman assholes and blackstone or whoever. if he teaches constitutional law, that's an inherently "soft" course and what he's saying isn't special at all; conlaw is on its face shot through with decisional quandaries at every point in a way that other legal subjects are only once you've given them real thought. on the other hand, if he's one of the professors who makes it clear the different ways in which a law and econ perspective or a legal realist perspective could work out in the caselaw of torts or contracts, for instance, or who details the historical development and contingency of the law in american history and the different economic players and their interests in that development, that's something i can get into. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762995) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:14 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea looks like he pwned you re: your general criticisms and now youre trying to get more specific. keep fighting the good fight! :) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763019) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:16 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube ? i don't really think so. the basic claim was about the fact that professors don't offer much and students don't take much, and that class is basically a charade. we have just his and my experiences to compare. we're talking about other things now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763039) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:20 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea i mean in response to your "lol youre an idealist fgt trying to push pointless shit" he addressed how having a "bigger sense" of things can actually come into play in practice, and now youre all like "ok but this 'bigger sense' stuff youre pushing is probably either unrigorous or inherent to the field or maybe its cool but eh probably not!!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763066) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:21 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube yeah this is fair. i mean, thinking back, the one professor i really did like provided this sort of holistic outlook. but he had never practiced law. and we played a LOT of cards during his class, too. doesn't answer much about the time-wasting charade of law school, which is, in essence: why are you forcing a hundred very smart people into this room for an hour to do absolutely nothing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763076) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:22 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Why did you pay $50,000 a year just to sit in this room for an hour doing absolutely nothing? If you're just buying your degree, it seems like there are far more efficient uses of your time and money. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763084) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:25 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube there probably are, but it's not like i'm alone at my HYS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763099) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:25 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea i mean lol okay lets all just be autodidacts and sit down to test for degrees in order to avoid this whole charade? what do you want instead lol. we have a system in place and its reasonable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763102) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:26 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube i'm not saying there's a better alternative; i'm wondering if he actually thinks the system is reasonable (he seems to) and if he thinks there's an alternative (he doesn't seem to). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763111) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:29 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea ok! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763134) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:32 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube i mean i realize i kind of look like a faggot here. this guy believes in his work and seems to want to do it really well which is more than i can say for most professors. but his response to me, if you reread it, seems to be more about the possibility of a law school class eschewing the pattern i'm talking about and less about whether law school classes actually tend to fit that pattern. i don't doubt at all that he might be a robin williams dead poets' society type guy in class. certainly he comes across as really down-to-earth and into his material here. but empirically i guess he and i disagree about how common that is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763157) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:33 PM Author: at-the-ready marketing idea yeah fair enough. law school sounds faggot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763169) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:05 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Well I'm obviously not succeeding in changing your mind. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762943) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:07 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube i'm not saying i don't think you're doing it the right way. it's not your job to change the legal industry (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762961) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:10 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce It wasn't infrequent in my time practicing that we were dealing with true novelties in the law, or making claims based on analogies within the field. If you're at a good firm, you're going to get the hard cases, and sometimes that's all the law you have. I'm not saying that our briefs constantly declared, "This violates our fundamental right to due process as originally conceived of by the Framers." But it was pretty clear that we could out-lawyer, or get out-lawyered, on disputes grounded in a bigger sense of the issues at play. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762984) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:13 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube what's your view on that, if i may ask? clearly if there's an argument on both sides and it's a novel issue, and clearly if legal talent tends to be interested in money, the advantage goes to the side with more money and a better chance at a top firm like yours. how should a law student feel about that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763006) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:15 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Probably cynical. But there are plenty of thoughtless attorneys at big firms, too. And it's my goal to train students to think broadly wherever they end up, which may mean they punk the big firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763028) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:17 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube how do you feel about it, generally? have you ever thought about alternatives to potentially infinitely profitable legal representation? very curious about this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763049) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:19 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce I have, but I've never moved much beyond the initial thinking phase. But I think "infinitely profitable legal representation," as you term it, might have appeared to be a magically opportunity in light of electronic discovery and low-barrier transactions, but as we move toward a world of real outsourcing of legal work, narrowed discovery, and heavily-regulated transactions, the last two decades' worth of golden legal opportunities may give way to a different reality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763063) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:24 PM Author: Histrionic spruce headpube right, but in a big-dollar case, for example, corporations will still spend the money on a cravath or a kirkland or whatever. imagine i'm a troubled student (i am) coming to your office hours and asking: "how should i feel about the fact that i have to choose between the sense that law is determinate and my efforts as a lawyer won't make the difference in a resolution of a case or the sense that law is indeterminate and thus cases are resolved basically by the depth of the litigants' pre-litigation pockets?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763096) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:09 PM Author: umber frum nursing home A lot of us take ITE pwn3d as a way to purse a new, more sane profession. There will be a whole class of people from top schools who are high level positions who won't let lawyers at the table anymore. Your hustle is up! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15762975) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:14 PM Author: nubile sweet tailpipe dood, the economy will recharge soon, and then everything will go back to normal (for 5-7 yrs). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763012) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:14 PM Author: cerise boistinker Should the goverment stop guaranteeing student loans? Why or why not? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763017) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:15 PM Author: bateful ultramarine chapel is this one of those "policy-oriented" questions? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763035) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:17 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Yuck. I feel like I can't even answer this question without feeling like I'm making a politically-charged answer. I guess I'll say that while I don't know that they should stop guaranteeing student loans, they probably ought to stiffen their standards, and not just trivially. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763051) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:50 PM Author: cerise boistinker Agreed about stiffening (LOL) but I understand too that you probably have a horse in that race. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15763351) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 3:38 PM Author: Adventurous crackhouse What separates someone who gets hired at a t14 vs. other tier 1 schools?
How easy is it to lateral to other schools once you're hired? |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 5:10 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Tends to be credentials and maybe publication record, like everything else. But the top schools are very picky--they won't gamble on someone lower down the food chain, and they're increasingly moving toward PhDs. And connections--you need lots of powerful connections.
Ease of lateraling can depend. Entering the market is something of a crap shoot, after all--it depends what needs there are in a given year. And faculties are more cost-conscious, so I wonder if there might be a slight shift away from laterals. That said, faculties are always looking to improve their reputation, bring on scholars who publish well, etc. So if you find the right fit in a given year, lateraling may not be too difficult. Given the ease of obtaining a visiting gig, you just need to find a "look-see" visiting gig and have a good publication trail. But never having lateraled, I can't offer much more than that. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 4:11 PM Author: lemon forum cumskin Shortporch,
we had a tussle of sorts in another thread in which I posted an optimistic article relating to law firm hiring. You critiqued it by pointing to the systemic changes in the profession and belabored your point by making the obvious corollary: "even if you get the job, blah blah". I called you a debbie downer faggot and told you to go fuck yourself.
My bad. Reading through this thread, I can't help but admire the fact that you genuinely believe in what you're doing. Even if you're complicit in this law school scam, and even if I resent that my tuition dollars subsidize similarly bullshit research for a different lawprof, I have to hand it to you for seemingly being classier than the rest of your egomaniac, faggot "colleagues".
I still think it's bullshit that you guys get to show up in dockers three hours a week, pen an article a year, and take Safaris in Ghana under the auspices of "field research", but i guess the joke's really on us. Fuck this profession. Thanks for your sincerity, though, and I mean that sincerely -- if that makes any fucking sense.
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Date: August 11th, 2010 5:13 PM Author: Khaki Lettuce Thanks, I think. But you do see some dissonance, right? You insist that law firm hiring is "optimistic," but critique a "law school scam"? I want to try to be as realistic as possible. If you enter law school with very low expectations, then you might graduate pleasantly surprised at your career prospects.
I have some latitude posting pseudonymously to express what's frequently taboo among professors, and I'm happy to share frankly.
And I'm confident I don't own any Dockers. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 5:42 PM Author: lemon forum cumskin Law school is a scam so long as it feeds its students imaginary employment data and charges them fees that only make sense if firms are hiring their students (which they aren't).
I'm at a T10 and, although we've held up relatively well, I still think 70k/year for three years is a joke. |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 5:45 PM Author: vermilion background story It's even more ridiculous when you realize how much of that tuition (almost all of it) is going to professor salaries, who do little more than give you the information already in a hornbook, and then go on to write meaningless articles edited by students (lol) and read by no one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15764197) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 5:25 PM Author: vermilion background story why is there such a disconnect between law professors and law students re: teaching expectations?
I think it's retarded that professors pride themselves in not giving any practical legal education, instead believing that they are teaching us how to "think like a lawyer" (an utterly retarded phrase in its own right). |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 7:18 PM Author: 180 Embarrassed To The Bone Gaming Laptop Tanning Salon what a fucking piece of shit drain on society - gtfo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15764911) |
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Date: August 11th, 2010 11:49 PM Author: vigorous plaza psychic Clerkship question: What are my chances of obtaining a federal clerkship? T2-T3 borderline, top 3%, Law Rev. Ed. Bd, published comment, 1L summer with state trial court, and federal agency, 2L with a firm.
At bottom, my question is whether my school auto-dings me at the start? |
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Date: August 12th, 2010 3:14 AM Author: 180 Embarrassed To The Bone Gaming Laptop Tanning Salon in answer to your question: given the climate and the competition, one would certainly hope so (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1393112&forum_id=2#15768802) |