Will Obama care be challenged in the Supreme Court?
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:33 PM Author: Massive library
When you can create and manipulate laws, would you worry about the power of your illiterate and populist people to control you?
I sure the fuck wouldn't.
Also interstate commerce has nothing to do with forcing individuals to buy into your policy (just by living) or face imprisonment.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635474) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:44 PM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
yes. in wickard v. filburn the farmer was told he couldn't grow wheat even for personal consumption b/c the aggregate amount of his activity and people like him would substantially affect wheat prices nationwide.
in gonzales v. raich a marijuana grower was told he couldn't grow weed because, although illegal, weed sales significantly affected interstate commerce.
notice that, in both cases, congress regulated some activity. in the case of the health insurance, congress would be regulating a LACK of activity. it would be tantamount to forcing farmers to grow wheat in order to bring wheat prices down, or forcing all citizens to purchase fruits in order to accomplish some other governmental goal.
do you see the difference?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635575) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:01 AM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
and your reading of the commerce clause gives congress unlimited power to force citizens to do anything. your two examples are inapposite. income taxes are permissible based on the 16th amendment. selective service is permissible based on congress's power to raise and maintain an army and navy. neither have anything to do with the commerce clause.
in point of fact, you will not be able to cite me a single example of a statute in which congress has used the commerce clause to force people to do anything.
can the supreme court adopt your reading? yes, sure it can. but i really, really doubt it will. if congress can force people to purchase something because it affects interstate commerce, what prevents them from forcing people to lose weight? obesity affects interstate commerce. what prevents congress from forcing you to eat an apple a day? apples travel in interstate commerce. there's no way the supreme court can allow that. it would lead to dictatorial power, and incidentally, it would be making itself useless as a check on govt power. no way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635699) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:24 AM Author: cerise offensive kitchen coldplay fan
You said this: "you will not be able to cite me a single example of a statute in which congress has used the commerce clause to force people to do anything."
I cited EPA regulations, which come from congressional statutes.
You responded "well that's interstate commerce." Yeah it's interstate commerce, that's my fucking point. That's why I used it as an example of something creating affirmative duties under the commerce clause.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635833) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:02 AM Author: Massive library
/facepalms are you fucking shitting me?
Pay taxes = you must make and report your income... if you don't they can't MAKE you pay taxes... There is a pre-assumption of some kind of VOLUNTARY participation in the system (no matter how stupidly impossible it would be to live without participation of some kind)
Selective service is voluntary with all KINDS of ways to get around it... not to mention it's free and does not represent a "cost to live"... in fact it's just the opposite. If you were forced to do something, you would be paid by the government to do it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635706) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:04 AM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
this is wrong. they can MAKE you pay your taxes by sending you to jail if you don't. look up the 16th amendment.
selective service is allowed based on congress's need to be able to maintain an army and navy.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635717)
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:19 AM Author: cerise offensive kitchen coldplay fan
That article is so full of incorrect information about the bill I don't know where to start. For example this:
"As reported by the Congressional Budget Office, the lowest annual cost of an approved family non-group policy would be approximately $15,000. That is to say, as currently written in the bill under consideration, if a family’s health insurance plan doesn’t cost at least $15,000 a year, then you are breaking the law and will be held accountable."
is basically made up, and I know that in part because of the very CBO letter that I believe YOU linked upthread.
But as for the jail part, going to jail would be for not paying the tax if you DON'T buy health insurance, and you can already go to jail for tax evasion. The article you link misleadingly describes this as the tax code "as amended by the healthcare bill" to make it sound like the healthcare bill somehow makes it easier to go to jail for tax evasion. It further mistakes the word "misdemeanor" for "minor violation" and then assumes that a jail sentence would be applied in the case of any typical non-payor, when in fact jail time in tax evasion is generally reserved for very severe, high level cases of tax evasion. Nothing about this is changed by the healthcare bill, but because the bill amends some parts of the tax code, the article misleadingly makes it sound like the bill creates some kind of new jail sentence for not buying your piddling family premium.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635797) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:19 PM Author: Massive library
Forcing people to pay for something as a "cost to be alive" that they often could not reasonably afford seems like a clear "overstepping" of authority in our system of government... especially since it would lead to prison.
This really doesn't have much to do with the 1st amendment though, but neither did abortion or many other things we regularly claim is a 1st amendment right.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635341)
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:24 PM Author: Massive library
You know this isn't how the SCOTUS works. If it did work this way medicare and other garbage would have been tossed as well.
The constitution doesn't allocate the federal government to supply or control any sort of entitlement programs. In fact the constitution attempts to limit allocating anything to one group at the detriment of another.
The SCOTUS only cares about its political ideals.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635395) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:28 PM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
this is nonsense. someone will challenge the mandatory insurance requirement on the grounds that congress is without power to require it. under SCOTUS commerce clause analysis, congress can regulate interstate commerce in one of three ways:
channels of interstate commerce, i.e., roads, railroads, rivers, etc.
instrumentalities of interstate commerce, i.e., planes, trains and automobiles,
and substantial effect on interstate commerce. this is the one congress is using. the argument against it will be that the class of people without health insurance are not substantially affecting interstate commerce.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635433) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:31 AM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
"commercial activity of one group affects overall commerce"
really? how are babies born within the past 2 hours ago affecting overall commerce? nevertheless, they must be insured.
it doesn't fit within it at all. you're confusing the regulation of an activity with the forced doing of an activity you don't want to do in the first place.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635863) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:59 AM Author: Thirsty casino candlestick maker
"you are subject to any taxation the federal govt wishes to impose."
Really? ANY? Are you sure?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13636036)
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:51 PM Author: Massive library
Ummmmmm... I'm not eligible for medicaid and I made $0 this year.
Also I'd like to point out you're an idiot and can't read charts
you make $14k/yr you pay $700/yr AFTER subsidies for insurance. I hope that helps you stupid fuck
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635631) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 12:09 AM Author: Massive library
"In a letter dated November 5, the Joint Committee on Taxation informed Congressman Camp that there is a broad range of civil and criminal penalties applicable to any American who fails to purchase a health insurance policy that passes legislative muster, or as euphemistically styled in the bill itself: “acceptable health insurance coverage.”"
H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” The “additional tax” amounts to (a) the national average of a family premium as determined by the Secretary of Treasure in cooperation with the legislatively-created Health Choices Commissioner (essentially a “Health Care Czar” empowered as the arbiter for what is or is not acceptable health care coverage for your family), or (b) 2.5% of the person’s adjusted gross income.
Did you read that? If you make below that "certain amount" they just take 2.5% of your raw gross income instead of the fine... if you don't pay that of course, you go to jail.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/2262-healthcare-bil-pay-for-a-plan-or-go-to-jail
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635758) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:49 PM Author: Massive library
Obama spends more on a stimulus bill that created fewer jobs (even by Biden's numbers) than the entire War on Terror cost and employed since 2001.
WTMF
Those numbers aren't even including TARP losses or inflationary devaluation of the dollar
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635622) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2009 11:53 PM Author: Massive library
Um... they won't have the ammunition when the deficit balloons so large and taxes increase so much that they can't even service our debt?
How about when inflation devalues the dollar 14% in 2 years?
Or perhaps when Citibank and the like start defaulting on their TARP?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13635648) |
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Date: December 24th, 2009 10:07 PM Author: know-it-all violet set bbw
this was pretty good. balkin's commerce clause analysis is off, however. according to him, people who don't buy insurance use over the counter medicines and pay cash to go see doctors, and therefore do affect interstate commerce. that's true. however, what if congress decided that every american had to have a new, american-made car every 3 years? those who don't buy cars affect interstate commerce by using public transportation and hitching rides with friends and family. so they also affect interstate commerce. does this mean congress can force them to purchase cars? i say no. i don't see how the supreme court allows this. if it does, there's almost nothing that the government can't force you to do, so long as it involves money. then again, it could also force you to have children because population growth affects interstate commerce. like i said, no way.
as far as the tax analysis, it's not really my forte, but i'd say the supreme court doesn't allow congress to get away with it either. obama expressly stated it's a fine and not a tax. moreover, if it was a tax on income, congress could call it that. but it didn't. it called it a "shared responsibility amount" or some shit. therefore, it doesn't have to pay the political consequences of hiking taxes.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13640998) |
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Date: December 25th, 2009 3:22 PM Author: Crystalline Antidepressant Drug
Can the American people, acting through their democratically elected representatives, require adults to purchase health insurance for themselves and their families as part of a comprehensive health care program?
Yes, we can.
I WANT TO SHOOT THIS GUY IN THE HEAD.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1172797&forum_id=2#13644450) |
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