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Opinion is a major limit on Commerce Clause & Spending Clause

5 votes that the law was unconstitutional under the Commerce...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
if the vote was 5-4 to uphold, does the commerce issue have ...
Bateful clear factory reset button
  06/28/12
Five-justice dicta from SCOTUS is pretty good law.
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
titcr
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
To be fair, ...until one retires or dies in a year.
pontificating violet international law enforcement agency brethren
  06/28/12
Predictive theories of stare decisis are important: http://l...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
no, that's a holding.
ungodly point
  06/28/12
why?
galvanic windowlicker pisswyrm
  06/28/12
it's 5-justice dicta, not a holding, rite?
Pearl Nursing Home
  06/28/12
Greetings, Correct. It's a non-material piece of the opinio...
Orchid vivacious market
  06/28/12
I don't think so, since it's immaterial to the result (it's ...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
does opinion really go further than Morrison and Lopez? rem...
Flickering fortuitous meteor internal respiration
  06/28/12
I am reading, but it's a 5-justice smackdown on Commerce.
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
...
Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king
  06/28/12
Roberts n.4: JUSTICE GINSBURG suggests that “at the time the...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
lol, that's some streeeeetching on that dictionary definitio...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
i don't know why she even bothered to take the literal argum...
high-end messiness voyeur
  06/28/12
pretend someone hasn't taken Con Law in 7 years, and really ...
Navy Corner Quadroon
  06/28/12
Well, depends on the cases that come down the pike, but it g...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
so wait, the medicaid thing was struck down? Since all state...
Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath
  06/28/12
7 votes to strike it down, see Section IV.
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
well hell what are people freaking out about then? I won't h...
Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath
  06/28/12
no not at all. if your legislature is reptile, it can declin...
ungodly point
  06/28/12
well, since there's no enforcement mechanism, i'll just igno...
Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath
  06/28/12
can you give me a theoritical law that you think congress co...
Navy Corner Quadroon
  06/28/12
all sorts of shit, like, "if you don't build a new high...
ungodly point
  06/28/12
thanks
Navy Corner Quadroon
  06/28/12
1. A majority of the court now expressly prohibits Congress ...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
thanks
Navy Corner Quadroon
  06/28/12
but regulating inactivity really was a sui generis effort du...
Flickering fortuitous meteor internal respiration
  06/28/12
Well, yeah, since this was the first effort to compel such a...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
How does this not empower the federal government to end-run ...
Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king
  06/28/12
There's a political challenge in enacting a tax. But I agree...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
Are you in appellate lit brah?
Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king
  06/28/12
I think the future litigation will be in how heavy-handed Co...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
The opinion specifically states that Congress's characteriza...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
...
Talented station
  06/28/12
Practical result: Congress can't compel economic activity...
Spruce Talking Gay Wizard
  06/28/12
First, Justice Roberts opinion on the Commerce Clause issue ...
Violent shrine jew
  06/28/12
Is it really a limit, though? Check out this post from Praw...
ivory property rigor
  06/28/12


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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:03 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

5 votes that the law was unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause

7 votes that portions violate Spending Clause

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975088)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:06 AM
Author: Bateful clear factory reset button

if the vote was 5-4 to uphold, does the commerce issue have any precedential value? why isn't it dicta? (just asking, not arguing.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975125)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:07 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

Five-justice dicta from SCOTUS is pretty good law.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975130)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:59 AM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975650)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:48 PM
Author: pontificating violet international law enforcement agency brethren

To be fair,

...until one retires or dies in a year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976113)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:53 PM
Author: Violent shrine jew

Predictive theories of stare decisis are important: http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2012/06/the-commerce-clause-discussion-and-the-doctrine-of-stare-decisis.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976170)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:46 AM
Author: ungodly point

no, that's a holding.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975514)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:48 AM
Author: galvanic windowlicker pisswyrm

why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975540)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:50 AM
Author: Pearl Nursing Home

it's 5-justice dicta, not a holding, rite?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975564)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:04 PM
Author: Orchid vivacious market

Greetings,

Correct. It's a non-material piece of the opinion, do it's dicta.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975702)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:00 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

I don't think so, since it's immaterial to the result (it's upheld regardless of whether the commerce clause allows it).

Although you could make the argument that that Roberts *had* to reach the commerce clause issue since his tax rationale is based on using any reasonable means to find the law constitutional.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975658)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:07 AM
Author: Flickering fortuitous meteor internal respiration

does opinion really go further than Morrison and Lopez? remember the government basically conceded that this was a sui generis issue and court would have to find something special about insurance. i haven't read opinion, but a narrow dissent seems likely.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975128)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:07 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

I am reading, but it's a 5-justice smackdown on Commerce.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975134)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 28th, 2012 11:46 AM
Author: Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975520)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:12 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

Roberts n.4: JUSTICE GINSBURG suggests that “at the time the Constitution wasframed, to ‘regulate’ meant, among other things, to require action.” Post, at 23 (citing Seven-Sky v. Holder, 661 F. 3d 1, 16 (CADC 2011); brackets and some internal quotation marks omitted). But to reach this conclusion, the case cited by JUSTICE GINSBURG relied on a dictionary in which “[t]o order; to command” was the fifth-alternative definition of “to direct,” which was itself the second-alternative definition of “to regulate.” See Seven-Sky, supra, at 16 (citing S. Johnson, Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed. 1773) (reprinted 1978)). It is unlikely that the Framers had such an obscure meaning in mind whenthey used the word “regulate.” Far more commonly, “[t]o regulate”meant “[t]o adjust by rule or method,” which presupposes something to adjust. 2 Johnson, supra, at 1619; see also Gibbons, 9 Wheat., at 196 (defining the commerce power as the power “to prescribe the rule by which commerce is to be governed”)."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975170)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:01 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

lol, that's some streeeeetching on that dictionary definition.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975674)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:50 PM
Author: high-end messiness voyeur

i don't know why she even bothered to take the literal argument head on. she should have just been honest and said, "I don't care what the words of the constitution are. America needs this."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976142)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:39 AM
Author: Navy Corner Quadroon

pretend someone hasn't taken Con Law in 7 years, and really hasn't thought hard about it since then

what does this mean? what are the implications going forward?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975442)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:40 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

Well, depends on the cases that come down the pike, but it gives a little teeth to the Spending Clause from South Dakota v. Dole (i.e., it actually struck down a spending case), and it provides some good precedent for future Commerce Clause challenges. Practically, who knows. Depends on how wacky Congress acts in the future and what the lower courts do with it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975455)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:42 AM
Author: Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath

so wait, the medicaid thing was struck down? Since all state legislatures are reptile, does this mean obamacare is essentially dead anyway?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975468)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:47 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

7 votes to strike it down, see Section IV.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975523)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:47 AM
Author: Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath

well hell what are people freaking out about then? I won't have to pay the 6000/yr if my legislature is reptile?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975533)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:51 AM
Author: ungodly point

no not at all. if your legislature is reptile, it can decline the new funds w/o being effectively coerced to accept them. the coercive provision is severed from EVERYTHING else, and you still must pay your penalty.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975574)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:53 AM
Author: Provocative Genital Piercing Public Bath

well, since there's no enforcement mechanism, i'll just ignore that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975596)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:48 AM
Author: Navy Corner Quadroon

can you give me a theoritical law that you think congress could pass yesterday, that you don't think they could pass today?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975542)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:52 AM
Author: ungodly point

all sorts of shit, like, "if you don't build a new highway with this new small sum of money we give you, we take all your transportation money"/"if you don't do something in education, we take all your education funding"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975585)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:54 AM
Author: Navy Corner Quadroon

thanks

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975607)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:52 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

1. A majority of the court now expressly prohibits Congress from regulating inactivity (unless they tax it).

2. A majority of the court now expressly rejects the Necessary & Proper Clause as a basis to regulate inactivity (unless they tax it).

3. A majority of the court now puts a dollar figure on a coercive spending clause stipulation.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975588)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:55 AM
Author: Navy Corner Quadroon

thanks

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975608)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:58 AM
Author: Flickering fortuitous meteor internal respiration

but regulating inactivity really was a sui generis effort due to the quirks of the insurance market. for all the sturm und drang about broccoli mandates, there's a reason that congress never required people to eat broccoli.

so i don't think that the decision will significantly limit congressional power.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975640)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:04 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

Well, yeah, since this was the first effort to compel such activity in over 200 years, it's probably not a huge issue.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975705)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:48 AM
Author: Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king

How does this not empower the federal government to end-run new regulation that pushes at the limits of the commerce clause by just characterizing whatever the regulation is as a tax? It may be easier said than done, but probably possible.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975551)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 11:53 AM
Author: Violent shrine jew

There's a political challenge in enacting a tax. But I agree that the taxing power argument is undertheorized (this is made by many, see, e.g., Rick Hills). We'll see if one day the Court puts a constraint on the taxing power other than the implicit political challenges and the (easy) requirement that it raise revenue.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975598)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:02 PM
Author: Insecure Garnet Athletic Conference Philosopher-king

Are you in appellate lit brah?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975687)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:06 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

I think the future litigation will be in how heavy-handed Congress can be with such taxes. In other words, when does a tax stop being a tax and start being so significant that it is essentially a mandate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975729)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:05 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

The opinion specifically states that Congress's characterization doesn't matter.

Also, the tax amount has to be non-prohibitive.

So, Congress can do what you're saying, but doesn't have a big hammer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975715)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 2:26 PM
Author: Talented station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976885)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 12:02 PM
Author: Spruce Talking Gay Wizard

Practical result:

Congress can't compel economic activity under the commerce clause (unless it only imposes a relatively small, non-prohibitive fine for noncompliance, in which case it's a valid exercise of its taxing power).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20975688)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 1:08 PM
Author: Violent shrine jew

First, Justice Roberts opinion on the Commerce Clause issue endorses the so-called new federalist understanding of the Congress's Article I powers. Roberts strongly endorses categorical limits on the commerce clause, and explicitly adopts the theory that the word "proper" in the Necessary and Proper clause creates independent, judicially-enforceable limits on the Congress when it relies on the sweepings clause. Second, Roberts opinion is the first in the modern era to suggest that the spending power is subject to judicially enforceable limits: the new-federalist camels nose is in the one tent where the notion of pleanary and unlimited power still seemed relatively secure.

http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2012/06/a-strategic-interpretation-of-justice-roberts-opinion.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976305)



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Date: June 28th, 2012 1:11 PM
Author: ivory property rigor

Is it really a limit, though? Check out this post from PrawfsBlawg, which argues that the taxing power rationale totally swallows any limits imposed on the commerce clause:

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/06/the-healthcare-decision-and-the-costs-and-benefits-of-formalism-in-federalism.html

The Healthcare Decision and the Revival of the Taxing Power: The Costs and Benefits of Formalism in Federalism

There are two species of "federalism decisions" that emanate from the Court nowadays -- formalistic deference and formalistic lack of deference. By "formalistic," I follow Don Regan's definition (in his classic 1995 article on Lopez): “The essence of formalism in legal interpretation is paying no attention to the purpose embodied in the text one is interpreting." Whether the court is deferential to Congress or not, the Court says nothing much about what the Article I doctrine of enumerated powers is supposed to accomplish. Instead, the Court focuses on some factor that is supposed to define a judicially manageable standard -- some gun crossing state lines, some "substantial effect" on commerce, some more or less phoney jurisdictional element, that will make the Court's life easy in terms of producing five votes or supervising lower courts. Rarely, however, does the Court actually ask the fundamental question: "Why should the feds be regulating this issue as opposed to the states? In what sense are the states' incentives inadequate to the task that the feds have undertaken?"

Today, the SCOTUS has continued this tradition by upholding the ACA individual mandate as a legitimate tax. Putting aside the result, the basis for the argument shows that the Court refuses to get serious about explaining why Congress should regulate some topics but not others.

I am not friend of the argument against the individual mandate's unconstitutionality: The idea that Congress cannot compel commercial acts because of some ersatz gerry-rigged distinction between mandating and forbidding acts strikes me as just one more formalistic limit unmoored from any consideration of the purposes of enumerating powers. The analogy to Printz was always forced. The lower courts that struck down the mandate always seemed to be confusing a Due Process protection for individual liberty with a Federalism objection based on the right level of government to impose a limit on private liberty. It seemed to me that a federal law regulating the provision of a properly national good like health insurance -- a good that is redistributive in character and, therefore, cannot be properly delivered by subnational governments -- ought to be upheld by the Court.

But, in relying on the Taxing power, the Court has failed to offer a coherent purpose-driven reason for the result. It cannot be the case that the feds always can "encourage" people to undertake actions by taxing their inaction: Such a taxing power would render nonsense the basic idea that the enumeration presupposes something not enumerated.

So... what is the limit on the taxing power? Since Kahriger, the usual doctrine has been that the tax must generate revenue. But this test is patently unsatisfactory, because all taxes generate revenue if they are set just below the level at which they would completely prohibit a taxed activity. A tax on same-sex marriages of, say, $1,000 per marriage would presumably generate some revenue -- but would it be a constitutional exercise of Congress' enumerated powers? If so, then the idea of the enumeration is exploded, except as a formalistic obeisance to the text of Article I. Put another way, no sane framer would bother to enumerate powers if the only limit on the federal government's taxing power is that the tax generate some revenue and that people who wish to avoid the tax can do so through either action or inaction.

So far as I can tell from an initial reading of the 5-vote majority, the Court offers no functional reason whatsoever for its analysis of the taxing power. Indeed, the Court insults our intelligence by describing the conventional analysis of taxation under its prior precedents as somehow "a functional approach" (page 35). Of course, there is nothing "functional" about its definition of the taxing power, if the only relevant factors are the power of a taxed individual to avoid action or inaction that is taxed. If the test is, as Chief Roberts describes it, paying the tax "may often be a reasonable financial decision," then Congress will have fairly unlimited power to regulate any activity simply by imposing an exaction just short of what it would take to eliminate the activity altogether. If the only other limit is that Congress (or the IRS) cannot "penalize" persons who choose to pay the tax, by stigmatizing them as "outlaws" (page 38), then such a limit is worse than formalistic: It is not even consistent with the precedent (Doremus) upholding the Harrison Narcotics tax.

How is such a taxing power consistent with any sensible notion of enumerating powers? Why would any sane framer, whether Hamilton or Luther Martin, Federalist or Anti-Federalist, ever agree to such an arrangement? The Court does not say.

Perhaps it is just too much to ask that the Court follow Chief Justice Marshall's advice that the Constitution’s “great outlines should be marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves.” Maybe, when the political heat is on and one needs to round up five votes, it is impossible to mark the "great objects" of the taxing power.

But I tend to think that more candor on what exactly the enumeration is supposed to accomplish would actually increase respect for the Court. There are costs to formalism that can outweigh its apparent administrative benefits -- for instance, the frustrating sense that one's constitutional system is a pointless machine of arbitrary rules. I suspect that today's decision will exacerbate those costs.

Moreover, this decision has confirmed my worst fears about the anti-mandate: using individual rights rhetoric to constrain the commerce power has led the Court to unleash a much more dangerous power that had lain dormant for more than a half-century (since Kahriger). Having bought the limit on the commerce clause, the Court has stripped this limit of any functional meaningfulness by re-affirming an essentially unlimited taxing power.

That's what happens when one ignores constitutional purpose -- one gets senseless federalism and senseless nationalism.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1981509&forum_id=2#20976329)