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NYT MAF 'Lincoln' is about Lincoln, not 1860s black DC community
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:24 PM Author: Beady-eyed underhanded university stain http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/13/opinion/in-spielbergs-lincoln-passive-black-characters.html?
Come on.... I get the author's desire to see material like that get more coverage, but can't someone just make a movie about Lincoln and his close associates? |
Date: November 13th, 2012 9:27 PM Author: lilac giraffe kitchen lol. it will never end. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038656) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2021 7:32 PM Author: buff den windowlicker (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#42886048) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:35 PM Author: Overrated pit If the author does not like "passive" black characters, maybe instead of expected Spielberg to diverge further from history, the movie could actually show blacks and their roles during that time. For example, the script could build in a couple of black Confederacy fighters talking about how they joined in order to defend their homeland from the invading union. But I guess that does not fit with the shitlib narrative so better to just makeup black roles that do fit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038707) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:37 PM Author: glittery associate Until literally this very moment in time I didn't believe that you were flame. Well played long flame brother my brother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038733) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:40 PM Author: Overrated pit Did black confederate soldiers exist? Yes
Was the motivation of many to defend their homeland from the invasion and inevitable plundering? Yes
Can such people be called "passive"? No
Does this therefore not fit with the criteria of non-passive black characters? Yes
...
My point is obviously not that such characters should be written in, but rather that the author needs to be honest with what he wants: People with black skin espousing what he *believes* is both morally right and an accurate narrative of the time. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:41 PM Author: mischievous church building Canadian neckbeard piece of shit spews outrageous anti-American nonsense, why? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038766) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:43 PM Author: Overrated pit How is that "anti-american"?
There is nothing more American than taking up arms against a stronger force that threatens your liberty and homeland. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:44 PM Author: glittery associate If you could return to any single time and place in world history whence would you go (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038794) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:46 PM Author: Overrated pit To stay permanently?
Probably last year. Gives me enough time to increase my networth by a factor of 10 through my "future" knowledge, but does not mean I lose modern amenities or family relationships. Maybe make it 2 years to really cement my ability to grow my investments by a factor of 10. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:48 PM Author: glittery associate Best brand of maple syrup or are all brands basically the same? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038829) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:49 PM Author: Overrated pit This could out me. I have a specific brand I like and am not sure how widespread its availability is.
I don't really consume much anymore though. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:50 PM Author: glittery associate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038852) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:38 PM Author: Peach Resort (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039784) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 9:03 PM Author: glittery associate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22046087) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 8:32 PM Author: Aqua cuck state lol, no need to read any further itt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311324) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 9:03 PM Author: Thirsty very tactful cumskin psychic lolwtf (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311465) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 9:11 PM Author: Maniacal casino son of senegal lol. all you need to know about CGM. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311493) |
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Date: December 19th, 2013 1:37 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24673681) |
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Date: January 7th, 2014 12:24 AM Author: coiffed histrionic home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24789300) |
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Date: January 26th, 2014 3:14 PM Author: Big clown (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24899593) |
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Date: May 31st, 2014 1:19 PM Author: fragrant athletic conference heaven THE MOST DANGEROUS MAPLE SYRUP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#25662123) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2021 7:31 PM Author: buff den windowlicker (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#42886042) |
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Date: February 28th, 2017 10:54 AM Author: flesh theater pocket flask (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#32718469) |
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Date: September 20th, 2017 7:44 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle walnut theatre pisswyrm this exchange really deserved its own thread. a masterpiece like this shouldn't be buried. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#34254490) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:50 PM Author: mischievous church building Argh, I hate your flame so much. So tempting to reply, but the idiocy of this statement is so self-evident, why should I bother?
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:44 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse lol, every time I read this drivel I get a lil mad, then I think about him posting from a basement in calgary and I just lo fucking l (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038800) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:54 PM Author: Exciting unhinged parlor corn cake (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039407) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:06 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home How was the Union threatening their homeland? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038984) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:11 PM Author: Overrated pit They did not want the southern states to leave. Built up ground forces. Eventually goaded the initiation of conflict through aggressive placement of warships. etc.
Step back for a moment, do you think any material violence would have happened if Lincoln had given the thumbs up to the Confederacy becoming independent? Lincoln refused to allow a peaceful withdrawal and everybody knew if conflict did start, the union would look to march deep into the South to quell any attempts to secede with utter brutality.
The facts also bear this out, 400K Southerns killed, shitloads of civilians, massive number of rapes, entire towns burned, etc. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:14 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Why the fuck would black slaves care whether the southern states were part of the union? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039027) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:19 PM Author: Overrated pit There was no unifying reason. I suspect one of the biggest however were the MASSIVE tariff increase that Lincoln was pushing which would have crippled the agricultural base of the Southern Economy. This economic hardship would naturally have a disproportionate impact on the lowest rungs. All any farm workers, no matter race or status, would have to hear is that the Union was going to massively impoverish them. I suspect that would have been sufficient.
Moreover, even for those blacks (and others in general) who did not care whether their state left the Union, they certainly did care that once fighting broke out, if their side lost, their homes, families and livelihood would be destroyed. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:20 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home >would have to hear is that the Union was going to massively impoverish them
So they thought slavery was a better alternative? |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:23 PM Author: mischievous church building this guy is a fucking psycho and a charlatan (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039092) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:27 PM Author: Overrated pit First, there was little indication that even if the Union side did win that the 30 year old farm slave would actually be freed. The actual events of history right after the war show that this was a reasonable perspective.
Second, even if you were convinced you would be freed if Lincoln won, you also knew that you, your family, your community stood a very good chance of being beaten, raped or killed by the Union just by virtue of the fact that they would most probably invade. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:29 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "there was little indication that even if the Union side did win that the 40 year old farm slave would actually be freed"
lol.
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/mississippi_declaration.asp
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:33 PM Author: Overrated pit You know when Palin talked about how if Obama is elected and passes Obamacare you would see death panels? This is the same thing. All Miss is doing here is painting the starkest picture possible for white slaveowners in order to get them to buy-into the secession. Fear tactics 101.
Again, look at what actually happened, how free was the 30 year old slave post Civil war?
A slave would rightfully have no confidence that they would be freed if the Union won. Moreover, they also knew that in the process of winning, the Union would plunder and kill innocents in the south. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:34 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "This is the same thing."
Except it's the exact opposite of what you claimed. You said there was "little reason" to think slavery would be abolished, but in fact the southern states claimed that was the primary reason they were seceding.
So there's your Sarah Palin moment - Mississippi screaming at the top of its lungs that the institution of slavery was under attack. I hope this clarifies things for you.
"look at what actually happened"
What actually happened was slavery was abolished. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:37 PM Author: Overrated pit Exactly, just like there is little chance of death panels, but why do you think Palin screeches about them? It is a means to energize and motivate her base. The exact same thing is happening with Miss. They are stretching what could be reasonably inferred into something that kinda, sorta sounds partially plausible, but also ensures maximum buy-in from the most powerful members of the state. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039213) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:37 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "just like there is little chance of death panels"
Except, you know, slavery actually WAS abolished. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:48 PM Author: Overrated pit Eventually, sure, but there was little evidence to suggest it would actually happen. And, in effect, slavery continued to exist, it just took the forms of shitty sharecropping.
The 30 yo black dood post civil war probably had his daughter raped, a cousin get killed and was starving due to the totally economic ravaging of the south. All these outcomes were fairly easily predictable at the onset of the conflict in the event the Union won. My point is that it is therefore totally reasonable for that 30yo who can make this reasonable prediction to aid (in whatever way possible) in the fight against the union, even if there is some faint glimmer that the institution of slavery may, potentially, end. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:49 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "but there was little evidence to suggest it would actually happen."
So then what was the threat to the southern economy? Tariffs can't be the answer, since the union could have just as easily slapped tariffs on confederate states after they seceded. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:54 PM Author: Overrated pit "Tariffs can't be the answer, since the union could have just as easily slapped tariffs on confederate states after they seceded."
This is the problem. You are trying to have a convo about the civil war, and you don't even fucking know how or what Tariffs are in general and what Lincoln wanted to do. Lincoln wanted to slap MASSIVE tariffs of EUROPEAN goods. After they suceded all Lincoln could do to the south was slap tariffs on Southern agricultural exports to the Union. Totally fucking different and ALOT less harmful to the southern economy (Lincoln would not have even done that as it would invoke significant unrest in the north against him). |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:56 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field So slaves were fighting for the confederacy because they opposed tariffs on European imports? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039439) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:02 PM Author: Overrated pit I already indicated why slaves would support the southern states against the Union. No matter the chance of potential freedom from slavery, is it worth the certainty that if the Union wins they will raze and rape?
The tariff thing was an alternative reason for why others (maybe some blacks) would look to defy the union. Go back and re-read, although given that you entered this discussion not even knowing what a fucking tariff was or what Lincoln was trying to do, I have little confidence in your abilities. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:03 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "is it worth the certainty that if the Union wins they will raze and rape?"
Most slaves seemed to think so, since they overwhelmingly supported the union.
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that southern slave owners routinely raped and killed slaves. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:07 PM Author: Overrated pit Again, the fact that many slaves supported the North does not dispute what I am saying. I don't think that southern slaves who supported the union were wrong in doing so, but it is certainly not the only reasonable conclusion nor the only conclusion that all slaves made. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039537) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field It disputes your contention that slaves did not expect to be emancipated, and that they did not expect their emacipated lives to be better than their lives as slaves. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039558) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:13 PM Author: Overrated pit Not really. it was still a possibility. Moreover, many of these slaves probably figured they could make a run for anti-slave states during the chaos. Many may have also wished to fight against their oppressors as a form of revenge. Three very reasonable reasons for slaves supporting the union. As I have said, this is not about proving that one decision was right and the other wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039585) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:15 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "Moreover, many of these slaves probably figured they could make a run for anti-slave states during the chaos"
They didn't expect to be raped and impoverished in those states? |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:16 PM Author: Overrated pit Less likely given those states would be north of where the Union army was rampaging. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039617) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:19 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field So the mere fact that someone was aligned with the union would not lead them to conclude that they were going to rape them? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039644) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: scarlet nudist range How many slaves supported the South of their free will? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039559) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:13 PM Author: Overrated pit Irrelevant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039590) |
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Date: December 19th, 2013 6:09 PM Author: Hairraiser plum orchestra pit stock car (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24675534) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home What about the Confiscation Acts? Wouldn't that have been a strong indicator that the union intended to free the slaves? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039420) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:08 PM Author: Supple Sound Barrier you ARE THE DUMBEST FUCKING POSTER EVER (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039544) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:27 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field rofl (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039115) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:37 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse I liked the "livelihood would be destroyed" part. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039220) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:50 PM Author: Overrated pit You realize post civil-war there was massive starvation in the south? The slave atleast can be assured a meal after he works. His means of feeding himself and his family WAS in jeopardy. The fact that this means came under the auspice of coercion does not make it any less true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039361) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:53 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home So you're saying slaves actually preferred slavery? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039402) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: Overrated pit I would certainly prefer being a slave as compared to my daughter being raped, my brother killed and my wife starve to death. You are falling for the Nirvana fallacy big time here. Neither option is great, the question is about which option subjectively makes the most sense and I could see both being viable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039422) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:57 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field " as compared to my daughter being raped, my brother killed and my wife starve to death."
And slavery offered protection against this?> |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:04 PM Author: Overrated pit If the Union won, it was pretty certain that vast chunks, if not the majority, of the south would be razed and raped. It was also not certain that subsequently the slaves would be freed.
If the Confed won, it was pretty certain that slavery would continue to exist. It was not certain that the slaves family and community would be raped and killed as a result of slavery. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:12 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home What indicators were there that slaves were more likely to be raped than freed? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039571) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:22 PM Author: Overrated pit The probabilities do not have to be equal (or one greater than the other) for someone to pick one over the other. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039668) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:24 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Sure, but what were the indicators that made that probability something approaching 50%? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039686) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:27 PM Author: Overrated pit I have no idea what the probabilities of either would be. Nor, more importantly, would I know what a specific individual black would deem them to be. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039703) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:30 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home What would be an indicator that it was likely to happen at all? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039727) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:32 PM Author: Overrated pit That pillage and rape of southern lands would occur if the union wins? Common sense? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039743) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:50 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Why would common sense dictate that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039894) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:53 PM Author: Overrated pit What the fuck is wrong with you and the pumo? Do I need to create a narrative in order to show how a dood might be able to figure out that the winners in a conflict tend to capitalize on this? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039933) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Go ahead, create a narrative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039942) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 12:04 AM Author: Overrated pit Heard story from mom about how she was captured as a kid when another tribe, with whom her own was waging war, won. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22040002) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 12:07 AM Author: coiffed histrionic home So it would be reasonable for your hypothetical slave to extrapolate from an isolated incident to draw general conclusions about war, then apply those assumptions to the civil war, then take up arms and fight with the confederates? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22040024) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:58 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Slavery was the better option? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039457) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:06 PM Author: Overrated pit For some yes, for others no. It is certainly subjective. But there is no "right" answer here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039526) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:07 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Seems like emancipation was the right answer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039533) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:09 PM Author: Overrated pit Maybe, maybe not. Pick a random 30yo slave with a daughter, wife and relatives. Were they better off post or pre civil war? The conclusion is not so clear-cut for that dood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039549) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:11 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home No, they were not better off pre civil war. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039566) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:18 PM Author: Overrated pit I don't see how you can say that. Look, the stats suggest that if you were in that guys shoes, there was a good chance your daughter who would otherwise not have been raped, was by the union army, your cousin would be killed and your wife starve. How can you say unequivocally that this is worth the potential to be freed? For some, maybe, but for many not at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039636) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:20 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field You "don't see" why the VAST majority of slaves supported the union? This is just a big mystery to you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039656) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:28 PM Author: Overrated pit No, the reasons why a slave would support the union are fairly obvious. Where have I stated otherwise? You just wanted to insist on making shit up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039716) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home You indicated that a slave could reasonably expect to be made worse off as a result of union victory. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039735) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:34 PM Author: Overrated pit No, I did not you idiot. I said that if an individual slave were to conclude that they would be worse off as a result of union victory, that I would not be surprised and is an assessment I would expect a number of them to come to. VERY DIFFERENT than saying that the rational choice of southern slaves would be to support the Confed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039758) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:39 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Well if slaves could not reasonably expect to be worse off as a result of the union victory, they had no reason to resist the union. They would have done so only if they were mentally retarded or otherwise incapable for forming rational thoughts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039801) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:42 PM Author: Overrated pit Some made the decision they would be worse off as a result of union victory and others the opposite. The fact that the decision is totally subjective means both could be reasonable made with neither party being irrational or retarded.
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:44 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Seems like the people who made "the opposite" must have been mentally retarded, since you yourself cannot enunciate a single reason why that would have been a reasonable choice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039856) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:49 PM Author: Overrated pit Reasons to support union:
1) Potential End of slavery in the country 2) Chance to run away during the conflict 3) Revenge against slaveowners
Reason to support confederacy:
1) Union army, if it wins, will most likely rape and pillage which exposes myself and my family. 2) Lincoln policies stand to devastate the economy and therefore myself 3) Developed bond and loyalty to my southern community
I can see people concluding for either option because both have strong underlying reasons. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:51 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home You still haven't explained why a slave would reasonably expect to be worse off under union control than under southern control. In order for that to happen, the slave would have to have some reason to think that one outcome was more likely than the other, yet you seem curiously unable to enunciate such a reason. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039905) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: Overrated pit huh? This post makes no sense. I don't have to show that union control was more likely than southern control (or vis versa). All I have to show is that there are valid subjective reasons to want the Southern states to succeed in the conflict. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039941) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home They're not valid reasons if you can't show why they're valid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039948) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:22 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039672) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:04 PM Author: scarlet nudist range Hint: slaves were already getting their daughters raped, brothers killed, and wives starved; it was called slavery. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039514) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:05 PM Author: Overrated pit Hint: it is about frequency, chance and magnitude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039523) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:08 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Why would they have expected the incidence of rape to increase if the union prevailed? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039539) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: Overrated pit Because the union managed to rape more Southerners by the end of the war than the total that had been raped in the past 50 years combined?
Just a guess, but you get the point. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:12 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home My question was about expectations. So unless the slaves had magic crystal balls you haven't answered my question. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039582) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:20 PM Author: Overrated pit Sure, and people knew what armies did when they won, even if they werent the Mongols. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039652) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:21 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field How did slaves "know what armies did when they won?" Were slaves reading Tacitus? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039659) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:25 PM Author: Overrated pit Where do you think that 30yo slave came from? Maybe he was captured during a tribal conflict and sold to Europeans? Maybe he heard descriptions from other people? Maybe a couple of months into the war he began to hear stories?
Use your fucking brain for one second before you post stupid questions like how a slave could possible know what happens to the loser, even if merely by association, of a conflict. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:35 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field "Maybe he was captured during a tribal conflict and sold to Europeans?"
The transatlantic slave trade ended long before the Civil War.
"Maybe he heard descriptions from other people?"
Descriptions of what exactly? The crimean war? |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:40 PM Author: Overrated pit This is fucking retarded. Maybe he saw what happened to the loser in a brawl who continued to be beaten and kicked after already losing the fight?
I am not having further discussion with you about how a slave could be expected to understand what happens to losers in a conflict. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:47 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field Most bar brawls do not end with the victor raping the loser. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039870) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:53 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039927) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:23 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home So then why wouldn't they expect the confederates to rape them if the confederates won? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039680) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:29 PM Author: Overrated pit Because the confederate army, after winning its freedom, did not have to turn around and begin pillaging its own land in order to quash any residual resistance? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039724) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:32 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Had the union prevailed, the southern states would have been "its own land" as well. So why doesn't the same logic apply? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039747) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:36 PM Author: Overrated pit "its own" as in the landmass covered by southern states.
Let me simplify for you:
Union win: Town in Georgia pillaged Confed win: Town in Georgia left alone |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:38 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Slaves weren't "left alone" by confederates though. They got raped all the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039793) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:44 PM Author: Overrated pit Again, the question is not about the existence about such an event, but rather the frequency/likelihood. I doubt actual numbers exist, but the assesment would look like:
Chance I get raped as a slave in the confederacy: 2%/year Chance I get raped if the union wins: 50%
From that you can understand why, even when slaves were raped normally, they could still not want the union to win. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:48 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home Do you think more slaves were raped by union soldiers than by southern slave masters? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039878) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:51 PM Author: Overrated pit no idea. Although any comparison would be difficult because of the lack of real data AND because one is a single event vs. another being over a period of time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039907) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:54 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home So you can present no data that would have made it plausible ex ante that slaves would be worse off under union control, and you can present no data that would make ex post that that slaves would be worse off under union control, but you still think that was a reasonable conclusion to draw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039938) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 12:01 AM Author: Overrated pit All we can show is aggregates when it comes to data. That tells us little about a specific individuals choice.
Data that would support ex post conclusion of slaves being better off under union control: Eventual freedom from slavery
Data that would support ex post conclusion of slaves being beter off under southern control: 100K civilian deaths, Sherman's march, etc.
Who the fuck knows exactly what a specific individual knew ex ante. I can guess in general about their perspective on abolish chances, etc, but it would just be guesses.
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Date: November 14th, 2012 12:08 AM Author: coiffed histrionic home "All we can show is aggregates when it comes to data."
So show the aggregates that would have convinced a reasonable slave that he'd be worse off under union control. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:46 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home If they "knew" the union would rape them they were wrong, since most slaves were not raped by union soldiers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039864) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:06 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field Nah man, they were studying austrian economics, learning about the evils of tariffs, and making caluclated decisions based on reasonable estimates of the lifetime earning capacity under union control. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039527) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:13 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039588) |
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Date: January 25th, 2014 3:23 PM Author: nofapping lay bbw Date: November 13th, 2012 9:35 PM Author: Cow goes Moo
If the author does not like "passive" black characters, maybe instead of expected Spielberg to diverge further from history, the movie could actually show blacks and their roles during that time. For example, the script could build in a couple of black Confederacy fighters talking about how they joined in order to defend their homeland from the invading union. But I guess that does not fit with the shitlib narrative so better to just makeup black roles that do fit.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038707) |
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Date: April 6th, 2014 3:46 PM Author: titillating chestnut jewess ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#25335266) |
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Date: January 7th, 2016 5:46 PM Author: coiffed histrionic home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#29543708) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:50 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse CGM - how alienated are you from your fellow Canadians? In the US there is a larger contingent of fringe racist mouthbreathers, but it feels like you wouldn't even be able to participate in public life in Canada. T/F? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038849) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:53 PM Author: Overrated pit Not really at all. First, this sort of stuff does not really come up. Second, my impression of Americans is that you guys are alot more hard-headed and partisan when it comes to this stuff. For people with whom some of these subjects have been broached, civility and open-mindedness tend to be the norm. Nobody pulls the retarded "das racis" and "you must hate poor people" arguments that I see quite often both here and in America in general. There is also alot less blind irrationality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038874) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:54 PM Author: glittery associate What is your favorite income bracket (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038878) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:55 PM Author: Overrated pit huh? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038885) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:57 PM Author: glittery associate In terms of who you admire
Middle class bros working for dat 50k? Poors slaving away for 20k plus 10k entitlements? Rich bros worth 9 figs? Pretty rich bros worth 7 figs? Professional class pulling 6 figs? |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:59 PM Author: Overrated pit My admiration for someone tends to have little to do with how much they make in a vacuum. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038927) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:00 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse Haha, I know you think we don't pay attention to America's hat, but we are aware that Canada is way more shitlib than we are. You would get politely upbraided in the streets if you shared your actual opinions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038930) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:05 PM Author: Overrated pit Wrong. shitlibbery in Canada is a very different beast. A perfect example of this is the NYTs; there is an article like this OP every single day. The Toronto Star (best equivalent example I can think of) does not run daily article talking about shit like this, even as Op-eds.
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:16 PM Author: Dead internet-worthy fortuitous meteor cruise ship that's because lib canadians who want to read that stuff can just read the NYT. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039046) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:30 PM Author: Overrated pit No, that brand of shitlibbery is just not accepted in Canada. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039140) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:55 PM Author: mischievous church building cq (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038889) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:54 PM Author: yellow fat ankles station lulzy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038882) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:55 PM Author: Maniacal casino son of senegal lol, this dude would only be happy if the movie were told from the perspective of a black butler at the White House who every night sneaks into the Oval Office and looks through the battle plans and maps out better strategic plans and leaves them for Lincoln as if they come from his generals, then writes out new speeches for Lincoln, leaving them as if they come from his speechwriters, then begins his job the next day as a butler and does modest, simple things as the white men int he next room argue stupidly. then at the end the butler writes the Emancipation Proclamation and Lincoln falls to his knees in tears reading it the next day. Then the movie ends with the butler meeting a freed slave who says his free name will be "Martin Luther Obama." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038890) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:03 PM Author: At-the-ready church i laughed. tyft. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038956) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:09 PM Author: olive self-centered dog poop french chef (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038998) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:10 PM Author: Maniacal casino son of senegal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039004) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:46 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse This would be a lib academic's wet dream (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039310) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 8:05 PM Author: Unholy piazza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311203) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:57 PM Author: spectacular self-absorbed place of business boistinker What a laughable fucking criticism. Is she really suggesting the movie should have featured scenes where Lincoln wanders the ghetto talking to random black dudes? And that Spielberg somehow should have known about such stories because they are contained on the black oral narrative?
ROFL at this white professor from Northwestern. ROFL. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 9:59 PM Author: Avocado disturbing chad address I find this shit annoying even as.a relatively shitlibby dude (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038921) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:05 PM Author: shimmering frozen lodge goyim She's gonna give Spielberg shit even though he made that 1860s black enlisted grunt come off as scholarly and articulate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22038978) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:41 PM Author: scarlet nudist range The myth of blacks fighting for the Confederacy is obviously bullshit. Forget if blacks were dumb enough to fight for their own enslavement, but do you really think slave owners would allow blacks to fight alongside them as equals? Sure, blacks could have been forced to aid the war effort because they were slaves, but how many free blacks were in the South?
http://civilwargazette.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/did-blacks-fight-in-combat-for-the-confederacy/ |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:48 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse Slaveowners didn't trust blacks with a weapon. They were either left to defend the property or set to manual labor in camp. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039339) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:49 PM Author: scarlet nudist range CGM completely ignoring the fact that Southern slaveowners were racist fucks who probably wouldn't let the blacks fight on their side. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039357) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:51 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse Of course. He's not interested in reality - he imagines something that is consonant with his worldview and then sets about to describe a fact pattern or rationale to fit. It's really fascinating to watch. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039383) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:58 PM Author: Greedy Arousing Point Karate He's like someone with a 90 iq who somehow has the articulateness of someone with a 115 iq. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039456) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:12 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse Whatever, it's some brand of insanity. I don't know why normals (me included) feel compelled to rebut him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039577) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:15 PM Author: Greedy Arousing Point Karate He is mentally ill in some way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039602) |
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Date: January 25th, 2014 6:21 PM Author: titillating chestnut jewess (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24895083) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:00 PM Author: scarlet nudist range "Blacks fought alongside with the virulent racists who enslaved them to uphold the concept of personal liberty, self-determination, and slavery." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039476) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:58 PM Author: Overrated pit notice how I said "fighters" and not "soldiers"? Also notice how throughout my convo above I refer to the hypothetical 30 yo "doing whatever he can"? Nobody here has suggested that you had a black dood marching next to a white dood in the regular army. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039458) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:03 PM Author: scarlet nudist range There's a reason these guys aren't depicted in the movies: they didn't exist. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039499) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:16 PM Author: Overrated pit They arent depicted because it runs counter to the narrative that has been constructed. The OP article is the perfect example of this. Historical accuracy of existence is not important, what is important is showing black dudes giving Lincoln useful advice. The narrative is what is important to these people. If the movie did depict some black doods advising Lincoln, would you assume they existed? Of course not. So why, when there is no depiction of blacks supporting the southern states, do you assume they don't exist?
Very faulty reasoning. |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:36 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field Also, they didn't exist. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039771) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2021 7:30 PM Author: ponyboy curtis If I May, really airtight reasoning (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#42886035) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:18 PM Author: lascivious elastic band field If you just think about it for a moment, you'll realize that blacks fought with their southern protectors against rapists from the north. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039635) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 10:52 PM Author: Mahogany hairless native liquid oxygen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iUX7dvW5P4 |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:18 PM Author: Comical newt Perhaps she was told she was going to be reviewing a film about Malcolm X and was disappointed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039638) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:22 PM Author: garnet concupiscible meetinghouse I saw a black girl reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X on the train today and glancing around furtively at the whitedoods on the train. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039667) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:37 PM Author: Floppy white house i just want to be the first to say: I NATE HIGGERS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039779) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:51 PM Author: Impressive Balding Chapel ITT: people without jobs. how is it possible to spend so much time debating, arguing, thinking about, reading and farting such inanity. oh i know, if you're an unemployed fat ugly faggot. release!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039903) |
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Date: November 13th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: low-t offensive trailer park marketing idea Stuff like this would come up in my previous relationship. She is AA, and would constantly point these things out. But, when we would see a movie that accurately portrayed the AA community in that time period, she would say, "Why can't they show us in a better light? Why do we have to act ignorant?" I would say, "ahh..because they are being accurate? I mean, this is a story about a normal black guy in the 1850s, not Fredrick Douglass." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22039947) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 6:02 PM Author: wonderful base circlehead lost my shit at CGM's hypothesis that southern slaves took up arms over their rational fear of restrictions on free trade. my sides actually hurt from laughing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22044619) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 6:15 PM Author: aromatic tantric library halford lol cr, and it just keeps GOING (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22044720) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 8:24 PM Author: Dull aggressive voyeur yarmulke TITCR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22045717) |
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Date: November 14th, 2012 9:01 PM Author: contagious forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22046066) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 8:32 PM Author: twisted potus (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311323) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 9:01 PM Author: Thirsty very tactful cumskin psychic (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311453) |
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Date: December 25th, 2012 9:02 PM Author: Maniacal casino son of senegal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22311458) |
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Date: December 26th, 2012 12:04 AM Author: Haunting Chrome Alpha (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#22312718) |
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Date: December 19th, 2013 6:10 PM Author: Hairraiser plum orchestra pit stock car are slaves not rational actors?
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Date: January 25th, 2014 5:20 PM Author: titillating chestnut jewess (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24894792) |
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Date: August 19th, 2013 10:18 PM Author: Trip carnelian brunch skinny woman maf (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#23880709) |
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Date: August 19th, 2013 10:18 PM Author: Trip carnelian brunch skinny woman maf (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#23880710) |
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Date: December 19th, 2013 6:25 PM Author: stirring soggy parlour LJL, sorry the movie merely conforms to every northern inspired false meme regarding the war of northern aggression. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24675625) |
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Date: January 26th, 2014 3:12 PM Author: titillating chestnut jewess (CGM) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#24899579) |
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Date: October 12th, 2014 9:44 PM Author: swashbuckling chartreuse headpube Great thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2113374&forum_id=2#26505519) |
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