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NYTimes USNWR rankings article
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Date: July 30th, 2005 4:36 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/education/edlife/wellen31.html?
My favorite part is where Illinois submits the number that they would have to pay westlaw if they didn't get a flat rate deal.
They submit that they spend 8.78 million dollars on westlaw, when in reality they only spend 100K
Their inflated figure accounts for roughly 1/4th of their per student expenses. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 4:51 PM Author: nighttime stage usnews is a joke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3452592) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 5:05 PM Author: cracking pontificating stage You don't think it's a good idea to base rankings on the GPAs of students, who went to schools ranging from Harvard to XYZ State U and undertook majors ranging from poly sci to math??????? Heresy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3452675) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 5:08 PM Author: Appetizing yellow background story you see adcomms really dont give a fuck about your major or where you went for undergrad so why should USNEWS? Its not like law schools are the only institutions to not care about where you went for undergrad, all the other grads schools and professional schools are the same way.
He who games the system comes out ahead. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 5:25 PM Author: talented parlour coffee pot I think you've got it backwards. adcoms don't give a fuck because of USNews, not vice versa. Grad schools and professional schools? I don't think so, look at the top medical schools in the country, they're not the ones that have the students with the highest MCATs and GPAs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3452777) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 8:57 PM Author: Appetizing yellow background story adcommms never gave a fuck, USNEWS has only been around since 1991 or so and nobody paid attention to USNEWS for the first few years.
Over half the people who apply to med school dont get in anywhere. You need fantastic numbers to get into even the crappiest med school, they all have roughly identical standards. There is no Cooley in the world of med. schools. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 8:57 PM Author: Medicated garrison define fantastic (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453726) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:04 PM Author: Appetizing yellow background story A 3.4 GPA in a science major = a 3.7 GPA in political science, and at the top med. schools you have mean GPA's of 3.6-3.7. I cant think of any med school whose mean MCAT is much below 30, in fact all the top 50 I think are well over 30. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453763) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: Medicated garrison yea but you don't need a top 50. i agree on the gpa thing too. i'm taking mine at any easier school so i'll let you know how hard it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453767) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:06 PM Author: at-the-ready factory reset button Of course, most hard science majors write like monkeys, so they'd get a 2.9 in Poli Sci, but whatever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453774) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:37 PM Author: Passionate Menage This is an excellent point that is often overlooked. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454009) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:26 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend except its not backed up by any evidence anywhere.
As a math major I never made anything other than an A in english, greek, philosophy, poli sci, history and various other "writing intensive" classes. |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 9:19 AM Author: Massive drunken rehab Really? What about the "evidence" often touted by many science majors that poli sci majors will fail out of their courses? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3465048) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:37 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle Excatly why these "X major gpa = 3.9 in Y major" is BS. If you can't get good grades, you're either stupid or in the wrong major. I'd suck ass as an engineer, and most engineers would suck ass trying to write essays. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454011) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:46 PM Author: Bull Headed Patrolman Yea, I write like a monkey. That's why I aced law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454082) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:21 AM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration that, like, totally contradicts the post you're responding to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3455171) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:25 AM Author: Bull Headed Patrolman Science people do disprortionately well at LS. Hth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3455199) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:30 AM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration the evidence being, i assume, that you are a science person and you in fact did disproportionately well at LS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3455247) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:32 AM Author: Bull Headed Patrolman No, the evidence being, you assumed incorrectly, that science people have higher average GPAs than non-science people at LS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3455258) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:40 AM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration ah, of course. the evidence that your proposition is true is that your proposition is true.
tell me, is this evidence written down somewhere? |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:03 PM Author: talented parlour coffee pot Not really, and what's the percentage of people who don't get into law school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453760) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:06 PM Author: Appetizing yellow background story if you are set on going to law school I dont see how you can not get in someplace. There are schools like Touro whose lsat median is in the 140's!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453770) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:10 PM Author: talented parlour coffee pot There's 125 med schools in the country, USNews only lists the top 50 so I don't have the scores of all. Somewhere like Wright State, ranked 50th in Primary Care last year had an MCAT average of 8.7 which is probably around the 50th percentile if that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453809) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:10 PM Author: Medicated garrison don't you need to be a state resident though? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453811) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:11 PM Author: talented parlour coffee pot Don't know (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453813) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:12 PM Author: Medicated garrison i was looking thru the schools and a lot of the shitty ones require your being a state resident (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453818) |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 10:56 AM Author: Wonderful hairy legs There are about 100,000 applicants and only around 50,000 get accepted, so 1/2 of people don't get into *the law schools to which they apply* Med school is different in that I think there are less people who would only accept a top caliber school.
The average MCAT score of an accepted student is 75th-80th percentil or a 30.
I am still looking for the average LSAT of an admitted law student. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: hilarious immigrant Getting into "a med. school" is the most overrated thing ever. I've never known anyone who wanted to go to med. school and didn't get in anywhere. This people are all fucking idiots. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453765) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:07 PM Author: Medicated garrison i don't know about that. one of the radiologists at the hospital's, his daughter went to mit (hispanic) and has to go to guadlajara for med school. but she had like a 3.2 and an average mcat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453789) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:15 PM Author: hilarious immigrant OK, are you making my pointor yours.
Pretend there were 40 Law Schools instead of 240 (which, for the purposes of this board, there are), now how is it any harder to get into med. school than law school. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:17 PM Author: Medicated garrison well for one there are harder courses required that you have to take for entrance. but from what i hear the mcat is easier than lsat in that you just need a certain range to be acceptable. i still think law school is a shitload easier to get into. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453862) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:48 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle Yeah, I suppose any minority can get into PCL and anyone who wants to pay can go to Cooley. Just like anyone who wants to be "el doctor" can go to Mexico or the Caribbean for med school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454094) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:49 PM Author: Medicated garrison and the ones who go to the caribbean are fucked if they want to practice here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454099) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:52 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle So are the Cooley and PCL grads. I fail to see your point of how getting into law school is "easier." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454115) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:53 PM Author: Medicated garrison how? law school is a joke. i could get a 150 right now, major in communications and go to southwestern. even though i'm taking my science classes at a weaker school i will need to nail my classes, do well on my interviews, and get a good mcat score to get into a CA med school. it's not even comparable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454129) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:58 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle I doubt you could get a 150, since you can't recognize the difference from getting into one of many shitty law schools and getting into one of fewer med schools. Why do you think so many of them get their degrees out of the country? Because that is the med school TTT, since the AMA shut down so many med schools on purpose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454154) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 10:00 PM Author: Medicated garrison true, i scored lower than a 150. but seriously, if you actually think getting into law school is as hard as a US med school you are delusional or plain retarded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3454165) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 10:05 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle You are missing the point entirely. Yes, it is easier to get into law school in general. The reason has nothing to do with law school being "easier," but the fact that there are a shitload of law schools and very few of them are worth a shit.
And when you consider the fact that the difference in med school in terms of earning potential doesn't have anywhere near the variation as earning potential among law schools, I'd say it is harder to get a good legal career than a good medical career. I know someone going to a TTT med school on some Caribbean island who would make 50x what someone from a Tier 4 law school would make (assuming she was smart enought to pass her boards, which I seriously doubt). |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:19 PM Author: cocky charismatic base bbw "Author: valen2
adcommms never gave a fuck, USNEWS has only been around since 1991 or so and nobody paid attention to USNEWS for the first few years."
that doesn't quite make the point. and it's not hard to miss that there are plenty of people around harvard law school with a 3.6 from harvard college. no one will get in with a 3.6 from BC or BU, now or ever. it's also quite obvious that they account for it being much harder to get high grades at MIT.
how would you have any idea what the practice was pre-1991? |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:20 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend yeah, where the fuck is he making these claims from?
Does he have extensive knowledge of the law school admissions policy circa 1991? |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:19 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend nice supporting evidence for these strong claims.
Oh wait, you don't have any support? |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:32 PM Author: Irradiated church building "galois"
obviously someone's got a math boner |
Date: July 30th, 2005 5:28 PM Author: racy crotch public bath Post the article. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3452794) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:48 AM Author: Grizzly thriller gas station fuck, why should somebody have to even ask? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3455371) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:09 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend you're too lazy to sign up for a free account, I'm too lazy to cut and past two different pages. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458473) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 6:19 PM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration Here are the juicy tidbits, exposing two schools that effectively cheat on the rankings:
"Northwestern University has also hired graduates for short internships. 'I don't think it's unethical if you're giving some value to your students,' says David Van Zandt, its law dean."
NU: a cheating TTT. Don't trust its employment figures.
"Consider library costs at the University of Illinois College of Law in Urbana-Champaign. Like all law schools, Illinois pays a flat rate for unlimited access to LexisNexis and Westlaw's comprehensive online legal databases... To build user loyalty, the two suppliers charge institutions a total of $75,000 to $100,000 a year, far below per-use rates.
"But in what it calls a longstanding practice, Illinois has calculated a fair market value for these online legal resources and submitted that number to U.S. News. For this year's rankings, the school put that figure at $8.78 million, more than 80 times what LexisNexis and Westlaw actually charge. This inflated expense accounted for 28 percent of the law school's total expenditures on students, according to confidential data filed with U.S. News and the bar association and provided to The New York Times by legal educators who are critical of rankings and concerned about the accurate reporting of data. But earlier this year, she says, the bar association told Illinois that the $8.78 million was not legitimate and needed to be removed, causing Illinois's expenditures per student to drop by more than $12,000. Illinois removed the figure from bar association data but did not tell U.S. News. 'We're under an obligation to report to U.S. News precisely what we report to the A.B.A. in the end of November, early December, what happens after that is what happens after that,' says Dean Hurd, who will remove the valuation in the next U.S. News submission."
Illinois: a cheating TTT.
They cite some other schools like Baylor (whatever the fuck that is) and Case Western, but no one cares about them. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 6:50 PM Author: Orange voyeur stead actually it doesn't mention any cheating by case, it just quotes someone from there
it does mention how schools such as NYU and Boalt take on a bunch of 2L transfers that would have never been accepted as 1Ls
it talks about the part time backdoor briefly, but doesnt mention GULC |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:44 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle You act surprised, like you didn't know this happens everywhere. I think it is bullshit to even include that figure in the evaluation. If a law school wanted to run the fire hose outside all day, they could budget the water bill into their per-student spending?
At least in UIUC's case the figure only accounts for 1.5% of the score, NU's is a little shadier. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:28 AM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration "You act surprised, like you didn't know this happens everywhere."
Yes. I naively thought that no school could possibly stoop that low, not when they are accountable to the ABA. The illinois thing is particularly egregious: it's one thing to waste twelve thousand dollars per student running the fire hose, but it's quite another to keep the twelve thousand dollars per student while telling USNews that you spent it.
"NU's is a little shadier"
Yes again. It's thoroughly embarrassing. I think an appropriate remedy would be for USNews to remove UIUC and NU from their rankings, at least for a few years. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:30 PM Author: Demanding state NCAA style |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:33 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza They actually used to deduct points for a school for lying the previous year/not sure if US News still does that (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458641) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 1:35 PM Author: Frisky tantric sweet tailpipe wrinkle That seems a little unfair. I understand that cheating is wrong but the damage it causes is disproportionate to the crime. Everyone is cheating, two schools get caught and change it (or is just Illinois changing? NU doing anything?), so they should be completely wiped from the ranking? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3475981) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 1:38 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza Not sure I'd argue for that
From the article the NU dean defended it-they aren't changing.
At least for the stuff I was referring to, they were outright lying, though. USNews apparently had a mole inside the ABA. Schools were telling US News one thing and the ABA another. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:04 PM Author: coral mediation therapy Everyone knows it is a game and everyone is playing.
If they don't like it - simply tell US News not to rank their school. Opt out. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:07 PM Author: talented parlour coffee pot One school does this, doesn't mean jack shit, and probably hurts that school more than anything. A number of schools have to do it for it to be meaningful. This actually happened with dental schools and they are no longer able to rank them. Schools bash the rankings, but game them at the same time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453219) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:10 PM Author: coral mediation therapy I agree.
Say Yale, Harvard, & Stanford opt out though.
Different story then. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:17 PM Author: Magical digit ratio chad I think that the schools have to report their LSATs to the ABA. Does anyone know if they're public? Because with the LSAT and the reputational scores, USNWR can still generate the rankings. Those two factors generate almost all the difference.
If all the schools opted out by an agreement, I think the DOJ would find an antitrust violation.
When I read that article I was surprised at the depth of cheating. |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:20 PM Author: coral mediation therapy The ABA should do a ranking - that way if they cheat they can lose their accreditation.
And what is so astonishing about lawyers cheating? |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:22 PM Author: Magical digit ratio chad Just the brazenness (sp? brazenacity?) of the adding the mythical cost of Lexis. How the hell is that different from Enron? I know that old retirees won't lose their savings over the rankings, but the lying is the same. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453257) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:47 PM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration better yet, LSAC should publish a matrix of cross-admit preferences; other agents would be free to derive rankings from the data. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453311) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:20 PM Author: Orange voyeur stead uhh.. some ttts already "opt out" in the sense that they do not report all of their numbers because they are so dismal, USNWR just calculates the numbers that they can get themselves and throw them in the 4th tier (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453248) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 9:31 PM Author: maroon den love of her life ABA gets all the info but according to the article will not discuss individual schools. It would be very much against the mission of the ABA to rank schools, I would think. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453959) |
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Date: July 30th, 2005 7:49 PM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration yeah, okay, which school goes first? and what do they do if the other two don't follow suit? and why on earth whould Yale opt out, when it's the rankings that so cement its supremacy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3453316) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 3:09 AM Author: fantasy-prone meetinghouse sneaky criminal I went to a TTT state school undergrad intentionally for two main reasons:
1. easier to get a high GPA 2. lower tuition
In otherwords not only did I pay 1/5 of students at private schools I also INCREASED my chances of being accepted to law school. At the end of the day this type of planning and other examples I could provide are reasons I am going to make more than the average law student. The shrewd will inherit the earth not the book smart robot risk averse frauds that congregate here... |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:13 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend Decadent or merely Shrewd?
UCSD, decadent AND shrewd!
Seriously though, did you get lost and reply to the wrong thread?
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:15 PM Author: citrine personal credit line home yet if you look at the class composition of a top law school school, they're all from basically the same elite schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458510) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:18 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend that's a little hyperbolic.
Elite schools are disproprtionately represented and I think elite schools certainly get a boost (especially the low LSAT high GPA elites), but saying "they're all from basically the same elite schools" is a little bit out there. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:21 PM Author: citrine personal credit line home not really, but okay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458543) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:23 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend not really what?
either your definition of "elite" is so broad that it includes nearly 50 schools or you're just wrong. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:31 PM Author: citrine personal credit line home like 25 or so schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458623) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:52 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend so you think like half of the t14 comes from 25 or so undergrads? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458774) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 3:15 AM Author: fantasy-prone meetinghouse sneaky criminal I think one of the posters made a good point above. The lower caliber law schools (4th tier) have a substantial number of students who could not get into med school. But I am quiet confident that many prospective med students could not get into 1st tier or even 2nd tier schools. I just know the med school "types" and many did not have the ability to analyze nuances of texts and engage in reasoning. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3456395) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 5:50 AM Author: Stimulating heaven blood rage This was a good article, but I think it was a little glib and unfair in how it covered a few points.
Yes, when a school takes a transfer it means they accept a student who probably didn't have the numbers to get in the first time. But even this isn't always the case when someone transfers to a similar ranked school for personal reasons for example, and I'd say all transfers within the T14 involve students of relatively similar quality based on pre law criteria.
Even still, it's 100% reasonable for a school to take transfers and those transfer admits having a lower gpa or lsat than the school's median is not an indication of any disingenuous motives. Transfers are usually people for whom pre law stats did not accurately predict how good they were at studying the law. The fact that a school recognizes that LSAT and GPA are imperfect as a proxy for law school success (but still recognizes they are the best criteria to use) doesn't make them shady when they use gpa and lsat in the absence of any other evidence but will weigh law school grades heavily when they are actually available. That just makes sense.
A similar point can be made about the part time programs. Yes, I think that these probably *are* loopholes that are a little more sketchy in how they are used, but I think the article made it out like there was no legit purpose to having a part time program at all. To the extent that one can justify a part time program (and I think it's a good idea that happens to be the subject of some abuse by schools) one should not be surprised that the students are of a slightly lower quality. When a school has a summer start program to lighten the load on a student and give them extra attention the people that either self-select for that program or are placed in it by the school probably won't be the best and brightest of the pool but rather individuals who seem more likely to benefit from such a program.
Now perhaps there is some measure of abuse or lack of restraint in how schools use these policies in practice, but the article talked about this like it was in the same league as over-reporting how much you pay for lexis by nearly $20 million dollars. I think both part time programs and transfer programs fulfill legit educational goals that are not connected with a schools US News ranking and are defensible on those grounds. I would not deny that they may also help a schools ranking though.
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Date: July 31st, 2005 5:57 AM Author: fantasy-prone meetinghouse sneaky criminal It seems like schools are increasingly saying "lets get as much tuition as we can and to hell with studen'ts job prospects". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3456535) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 5:58 AM Author: maroon den love of her life The transfer stuff I understand; but the practice establishing two nearly-identicaly tracks, one for students with lower numbers that is essentially part-time and the other regular full time for students with better numbers is a little disturbing -- as is the practice of starting students with lower numbers in the summer so that they technically aren't "starting in the fall" and aren't included in the USNWR questionnaire.
But the worst part was NorthwesTTTern giving students part-time temporary jobs so that they can list them as "employed at graduation." |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 6:21 AM Author: Stimulating heaven blood rage The way some (many?) schools actually do the part time program is a big problem. In theory though, I can at least form a cogent justification for a seperate track (either part time or summer starters) to a JD, and whether the school was shady about it or not I think it's likely that people in such a program would have somewhat lower numbers than those who applied to the regular program only. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3456540) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 2:40 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza Re: transfers, I agree with your post -
The thing is I think it is kind of disingenuous, but for a reason the article completely misses.
Transfers generally do well in job hunts. The reason is they're accepted with good grades and with a more prestigious law school on their resume, firms will often take them instead of people with worse grades from the school they transfered to.
When a school takes a bunch of transfers it can boost employment stats, even though it may make life tougher for those admitted originally. As a result, if you have two schools with equal employment numbers, but one takes a lot of transfers, you're probably going to have an easier time getting a job at the other school. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:16 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend from everything I have ever heard from students that went through OCI, transfers have a lot tougher time than a non-tranfer with similar grades. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458513) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:23 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza That wouldn't surprise me
But the people with similar grades aren't the only ones they're competing against (edit: and that's what I'm referring to).
If you'd say a transfer with As from a decent school has a more difficult time than someone with Bs at the school they transferred to-I would dispute that. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:54 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend a student with As at a decent school would likely do better if they had stayed at their school than someone with Bs at the school they transferred to.
All decent schools place their top students very well.
Its at the bottom where a school's name makes a difference. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 9:48 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza "a student with As at a decent school would likely do better if they had stayed at their school than someone with Bs at the school they transferred to."
I disagree - though I probably oughtta hear you definition of a decent school first.
I say top 50-and even then I have no problems naming schools I've heard of where top students had difficulty getting jobs.
Toss that aside, though -
assuming that's all were true - it doesn't affect what I said / A student in the top 10% of their class at 20-30 school who transfers to, say, a top 10 is going to have an easier time then the B student at the school. A law school won't admit people who'll hurt their employment stats. This boosts it. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 9:51 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend I meant a school where you have a realistic shot of transferring to.
So say if the elite school you are talking about is Harvard, you'd need to have all A's from a t14, most likely.
All A's from any t14 is going to do better than a B student at HLS.
If you are talking about Cornell as the elite school, then you're going to need to be an all a student from say WUSTL. An all A student at WUSTL is going to do better than a B student at Cornell. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 9:59 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza Feel free to say aren't making the right move, but that's a different argument-
I still say its wider - for HYS that sounds right, but you can go to a school a lot lower than WUSTL and transfer to Cornell.
Anyway, HYS has students who made As at top 14s, Cornell has em from lesser schools, etc.
They made a stupid move? ok - but they're still going to do better than the B students where they are now. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 12:00 PM Author: Frozen swashbuckling theater stage SMU recently started their part time JD just to move up in the USNWR rankings.
SMU cut down their day time class, and increased their standards for those seats. To offset the money lost by cutting the class size, they created the evening program which started one year ago where their admission standards are a little lower and do not conform to the US News grading. They can make a ton of money off the evening students and not have to count their numbers among their admissions stats.
That's why SMU was so pissed that the formula for LSAT numbers was tweaked. They put all this time and effort into gaming the rankings only to have the rules change on them causing a slide in ranking. Serves them right. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 1:32 PM Author: Hairraiser temple volcanic crater Lots of schools in big cities have evening programs. Any different than UH, STCL, Texas Wesleyan, GULC, GW, GMU, etc.?
Wasn't University of North Texas trying to open a law school in Dallas? Didn't UNT argue that there was a big need for a new law school in Dallas because there was no evening law program offered there? Is it possible that UNT's plans were a big consideration in SMU's decision to reinstate its evening law program?
SMU evening law students do not sound like typical law students that have numbers that are a "little lower:"
"Over 40% of the evening students have graduate degrees and they average approximately ten years work experience each. They come from a wide variety of careers, including college professors, physicians, teachers, real estate brokers, engineers, a playwright, a pilot, a television reporter and a refugee volunteer."
From SMU Law School website. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 2:49 PM Author: Frozen swashbuckling theater stage By lower standards, I mean the LSAT/GPA combo used in the USNWR for rankings.
I'm sure they're all fine people, and I'm not bagging part time programs. They serve a great purpose. I'm just throwing out that in this case, it was partly created to aid SMU's efforts to move up in rankings.
I'm not picking on SMU though. Every school does whatever they can to move up. Sadly, that's how deans are judged now. Their jobs in part depend on it. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 3:35 PM Author: underhanded adventurous mood I would add that it's easy for SMU's website to focus on the part-timers who actually have other careers, full-time jobs, etc. Certainly any part-time program will have people like that. That doesn't prove that a majority of the part-time students aren't just 23-year-olds with low numbers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458241) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 9:17 PM Author: Hairraiser temple volcanic crater I don't totally disagree with your point, but I do believe that, on average, SMU's evening program has older students with more work experience than its day program. I don't believe the majority are 23 year olds, but they undoubtedly have some. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3460969) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:22 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend can anyone even explain to me why part time students aren't taken into account for rankings purposes?
I'd be fine with their stats being given less weight, but I think its such a huge part of some schools that just ignoring it is borderline idiotic. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 10:19 PM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration that is an excellent question.
i think the part-timers' numbers should be counted with the same weight as full-timers'; they're going to get the same degree, after all. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 10:26 PM Author: Sickened crackhouse organic girlfriend well, I can understand the argument that USNWR is rating full time programs, and as such TTT students don't come into play as much. However at a lot of these schools students transfer into the FT program.
Basically either way I would be happier than the way it is now though. Not taking them into account at all is total BS. |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:29 PM Author: Emerald Marketing Idea Abode We always knew that something funny was going on with the expenditures data. I thought the most useful part of this article was that it shed some light on how things in those categories could be so dramatically different among otherwise similar schools, such as Stanford having to report so much less in indirect expenses than Yale, Harvard, and Columbia because of the way the university bills for things like utilities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3458602) |
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Date: July 31st, 2005 4:31 PM Author: Spectacular Khaki Ratface Piazza We are all very well trained at redefining the very letter of the law," he says. "The rules of professional responsibility don't apply to the law school admission process. Maybe they should. -- Rutttgers Dean.
TTT. |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 7:05 AM Author: laughsome hairless lettuce giraffe Anyone ever read Barman by the author of the article, Alex Wellen? I skimmed thru it once at a bookstore and it seemed pretty funny. If I remember right he was an engineering major and got his JD from Temple. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3464929) |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 7:09 AM Author: laughsome hairless lettuce giraffe Also, what does this mean:
"Critics say law schools are engaged in an LSAT and G.P.A. arms race in which they exploit technicalities in U.S. News's methodology. Admissions people know, for example, that the rankings are calculated using grades and scores of only full-time students."
Does this mean that if you're applying to law school but have been out of school for a year or so, your LSAT and GPA won't count for USNWR rankings? Or is this talking about actual law school students already admitted, that they're not dealing with part-timers, only full-timers? |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 7:23 AM Author: razzle-dazzle impressive genital piercing useless brakes latter
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Date: August 1st, 2005 9:28 AM Author: cowardly green philosopher-king half-breed WELL I BUY MY TOILET PAPER FROM COSTCO BUT I HAVE TO PAY THE MEMBERSHIP FEE AND ALSO I SHOULD CHARGE THE FAIR MARKET RATE RATHER THAN MY INSIDER'S DISCOUNT PLUS THE GAS MONEY TO DRIVE ALL THE WAY TO COSTCO AND THEN THERE'S WEAR AND TEAR ON THE CAR SO THAT'S WHY I REPORTED IT AT $72 A ROLL. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3465069) |
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Date: August 1st, 2005 11:07 AM Author: Exciting mentally impaired internal respiration also as soon as you break the plastic wrap, the resale value of the toilet paper depreciates almost to zero. since it's worth $72 initially, that's equivalent to spending another $72, for a total of $144 per roll you use. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3465427) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 11:22 AM Author: Bronze forum death wish "Inflating, by hook or by crook, expenditures so that one's school is ranked more in accord with its academic merits than it would be otherwise given the screwball U.S. News ranking methodology harms no one, and arguably provides students who take the overall U.S. News rank seriously better information than they otherwise would get."
Brian Leiter
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/
Hmmm, I wonder if UT engages in this practice? |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 2:12 PM Author: floppy hell Leiter is saying, "when lying helps me, it is good." Or maybe, "lying to someone who is bad (USNWR) is good." Or, "if I can rationalize my lies, they become good."
I wonder if he grants President Bush the same latitude. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 2:21 PM Author: cowardly green philosopher-king half-breed "Extensive correspondence with prospective law students over the years convinces me that the better students assign no importance to the overall U.S. News rank, concentrating instead on the underlying data.)"
Sorry Leiter: "better students" apply to better schools than yours. They have no correspondence with you. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 2:25 PM Author: floppy hell What kind of crack is he smoking? The better students, the medium students, and the worst students assign lot of importance fo the overall USNWR rank. Why does he think Yale's acceptance rate is so damn high? Because the applicants have checked out the library there, or looked at the publications of professors in particular specialties? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3476582) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2005 2:16 PM Author: Violet Concupiscible Plaza Beautiful (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=230302&forum_id=2#3476466) |