Let's see some more scholarship bros.

DBG is not allowed in this thread.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375418)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375441)

Again, I'm not saying this as a practicing Muslim. I haven't been to a mosque in years. I talk about meditation and probably discuss buddhist ideas on here more than Islam lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376597)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1321951/posts

You lose faggot.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376799)

There are plenty of wackos who happen to be Christians, but I think the number of people who would see me crucified for celebrating Christmas with a tree and presents, rather than going to mass, is limited.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376659)

A different position, even within the official tradition of Islamic law. I will look into this a bit more later

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376706)

can you give examples of the iranian charities that help with disaster relief anywhere in the world, regardless of whether it's in a christian or jewish or islamic or hindu nation?

what is islam's equivalent of the red cross or the salvation army?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27495098)

There are hundreds of active Islamic terror groups

In Dubai, they will arrest an unmarried woman for kissing a man.

In Afghanistan, they will kill a woman for going outside without some snuggie over her whole body.

Islam sucks.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375424)

but what can we say about mohammed, a warlord child raper from the desert?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375472)

why do you guys have such a problem denoucing the shit ragheads pull in the name of their religion

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375440)

Not the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount. Or basically any part of the new testament which is the foundation for Christianity

so obviously christians are just as bad as muslims and the odd passages in the old testament are equivalent to the whole of the quran espousing the murder of non believers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375499)

And, also, yfwgi.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375606)

You understand evangelical christianity. Sorry about that, carry on.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375625)

What do Muslims say?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27378363)

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”

18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords,[b] please! 19 Your[c] servant has found favor in your[d] eyes, and you[e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.[f])

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Lot and His Daughters

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi[h]; he is the father of the Ammonites[i] of today.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375517)

Genesis 19 King James Version (KJV)

19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.

22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:

28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375544)

You can likewise go into the misogyny and homophobia of Christianity as well as its miles-long catalogue of really nasty shit done in the name of the Christian religion.

The problem with Islam isn't really Islam but the shit cultures that allow Islam to flourish. Western Christian nations have already undergone the painful, long and violent transition to modernized economies, democratic rule, and an educated populace, all of which have led to secularization. The benefit of all these things is that a society gradually learns to see religion in a more objective light.

This cannot yet be said for the largely shit backwater countries where Islam flourishes. Those are places that have not really begun to reckon how fucked up they really are and how fucked up it is to take the Old Testament, New Testament, or the Koran literally. If Islam were a tradional religion in a society with deep roots of science, education and democracy, it wouldn't be a problem. Muslims would largely ignore the violent parts and what remains would be the peaceful, spiritual stuff. Yet this is not what's happening in Islam countries because the shitheads continue to take artefacts of much more violent times at face value.

You want to fix Islam? Educate and modernize Muslim societies so they stop shooting bullets at Malala and stoning Soraya M.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375581)

The shitlib lisped

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375680)

Education. But i agree with you on the importance education.

Another thing to note is that there are some Islamic cultures where education IS already extremely important and well developed in some ways. Look at Iran for example. Islam has been in Iran since the 7th century and 90+% of people in Iran have been Muslim since the 10-11th century. From the beginning Iranians were at the forefront when it came to religious scholarship , the arts (poetry, music, miniatures), and scientific advancement. So Iranian art and education flourished while it was an Islamic nation.

Fast forward to modern times - many Iranians are educated as fuck and many Iranians have come here and done great work, they dominate in international science and math competitions, and they still have some incredible artists. There does need to be more work to continue to increase the literacy rate and education of the people, but that's just one issue of many. Iran also underwent some kind of modernization under the shah, yet somehow modern Islamic ideologists like Khomeini and his bros were able to seize power during a very volatile time in iranian history.

I can provide more scholarship later. I need to eat

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376554)

Quite simply, once the great majority in the Islamosphere tastes the air of critical thinking and a general respect for life, they too will come to reject violent elements of Islam as historical artefacts. But that will take a long time.

The west at least has come to some kind of dim understanding that violence is not a theological imperative, meaning that the root of violence isn't god's injunction, but previous violence. Muslim societies are not there yet.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376860)

This kind of statement seems too broad for me to address. I'm surprised you can say this with such confidence and there are a shitload of assumptions here. But to start with, I think it's dangerous to assume that much of the violence of today Is purely religious or because of some essential elements of Islamic societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376892)

Comprehensible bullshit. Dood would pick random movies and tie in religious themes and ideas in the most retarded ways.

On the other side, took a couple classes on Islamic theology and mysticism that were interesting as fuck but required a shitload of reading

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27377288)

@:|> allahu ahkbar!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375629)

With that said, I agree there are disturbing trends in modern Islam,

Some which are completely destructive, like isis. Nobody can deny that with a straight face

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376491)

Crusades and all

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27375687)

oh that a tolerant muslim

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376499)

No hostility on my part towards Jewish people, and everyone here knows that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376562)

i dont think they understood tho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376514)

True - the old testament is full of violent backwards stone age shit - but Christians and Jews typically regard the old testament as fairly tales that may or may not have happened 5000 years ago. It is not vital to the religion to read Noah's ark literally.

On the other hand, the Koran is a relatively new book written by a warlord prophet and it directly injects violence into the way people are supposed to view society and live their lives IRL.

TO the extent that violent shit has been linked to Christianity, it is usually the religion being co-opted for other purposes. The KKK is a religious group, but they would still be racist assholes without Christianity. The crusades were political power plays from fuckhead popes using the Christian banner.

WHile Islam hgas certainly been co-opted for political purposes as well, I'm not sure this is the case with ISIS. ISIS is not perverting the religion, they are just practicing it without compromise.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376642)

so the opposite of what war mongering, rand worshiping american shitcons value. interesting

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376925)

Unfortunately Christians haven't always followed their tenets as literally as Muslims. Shame on them, but that doesn't equate to what Muslims are doing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27377143)

You may believe that ISIS and the goal to have an Islamic caliphate that looks exactly like Mohammad's is the ultimate goal of Islam, even though we live in a completely different world, but I think it's up to Muslims to define that.

If we look to the history of Islamic scholarship, you'll find some scholars who believe that the religious leaders should be either disengaged from political life, or at least should never rule in a government. In Iran, for example, this was historically the case for centuries, and iranian ulama only got involved in politics in times of oppression and turmoil to encourage social change and help the people get what they needed. They did not have political aspirations, however, and the official Shiite position regarding governance was that the Shiite ulama had no place seeking political power or any role in government. Political conquest and power is not the goal of Islam because human beings are too flawed and incapable of religious governance. This was linked to beliefs about the coming of the messiah. When the Mahdi comes, he will give us true Islamic governance. Human beings are not capable of that ideal and it's perhaps even sinful to try to govern in the name of Islam. The message is that Human governance is necessarily corrupt, so Don't stain the religion by bringing it into it- you're not Mohammad or the Mahdi

That's another interpretation of the role of Islam in government. In Iran, Khomeinis ideas about Islamic governance and establishing the sharia were a complete departure and radical shift from the tradition.

I explain all this to show you that your interpretation is just an interpretation. It's up to Muslims to decide how they want to interpret the political aspirations of the religion, and many people, for centuries, saw it in very different way from isis

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27376992)

similarly, ISIS's interpretation of islamic jurisprudence has the legitimacy equivalent of those crackpot tax protestors filing suit to say they don't owe income taxes because they spelled their name in ALL CAPS or some shit -- yes they can make an argument on the theory, but that's how far out there they are.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27377913)

nooooooooo dont b mean 2 sword pumo! deus vult!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2815782&forum_id=2#27377918)