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Should I go to Harvard Law?
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:34 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Serious question. I've deposited for this year but getting cold feet about law school period due to panic about job market, debt, hours, etc that I hear complained about all the time here.
grants will be 20-30k/year so tuition is going to be 30-40k/year. Est COA ~150k?
Good investment or shit? |
Date: May 9th, 2015 4:35 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch if you can get into HLS, you have better options than law school and being a lawyer, so no, don't go. I went to a top 5 school, am a partner in a mid sized law firm, and I still regret all of it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855285) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:36 PM Author: iridescent hominid what do you wish you'd done instead (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855288) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:38 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch b-school, or just business without more school. Always still could I guess, but would be starting over again and probably would need to take a 2/3rds pay cut minimum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855299) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:39 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine am i stupid for going to med school in late 20s? i could go the business/MBA route but not sure if i would be happy. Money alone can't satisfy me. I spend a lot of time reading about diseases and shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855310) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:44 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch no, if you are passionate about medicine and helping people and you know all the downsides you should go.
95% of people go to law school for the wrong reasons and end up regretting it. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:45 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine How is business (Banking/Consulting) any better than a law career? Both are cut-throat competitive environments, am I right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855349) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:51 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch business isn't just banking and consulting bro....there is also like, actual business. I wouldn't want to do banking or consulting either...I don't like leaching off of business people (like lawyers do) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855384) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:52 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel so you mean actually owning your own business or navigating the bureaucracy of a large organisation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855391) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:54 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch or working at a smaller business or startup...which is kind of common these days (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855407) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:01 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine That's a huge risk though. No guarantee u will make any money as entrepreneur (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855457) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:03 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch For a number of reasons, I wouldn't base your career decisions on guaranteed income... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855465) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:04 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine why not (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855478) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:05 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center because people who do typically end up very unhappy in life (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855484) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:08 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine Everyone has a baseline salary they want to earn though, so it is a consideration (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855508) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:57 AM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center as it turns out, apparently across the board 75K/yr optimizes happiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27858986) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:05 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch ok, sorry I guess you can, if you want to spend 50-60 hours a week doing something you hate and generally being miserable (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855489) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:06 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine what if it's something u enjoy and the money is a bonus? I like medicine and enjoy it but i wouldn't do it if it paid like 30K a year...So income is a huge consideration in choosing a career (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855497) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:08 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center well then you aren't making your decision based on guaranteed income now, are you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855505) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:08 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine Well I am not choosing the Entrepreneur route either (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855511) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:09 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center y r u so gay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855515) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:10 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine It's silly to say that salary shouldn't be a concern. There are lots of other professions I would enjoy like being an Editor, Journalist, Museum Curator, Archivist, Musician, etc but it's not financially feasible for me to do them...so i choose a career that i would enjoy and that provides me a salary i need (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855522) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:49 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What are the right reasons you reckon?
Here's where I stand: I've been out of school long enough to see my undergrad friends go through LS (mostly T6 CCN grads) and into biglaw jobs and I'm pretty sure I know that I don't want to do that shit for longer than maybe a few years (hopefully post-clerkship). I also have a good sense of what "studying the law" is all about and I think I'm alright with it.
No interest in making partner or staying in biglaw longer than 2-3 years. Hoping to spend most of my career in academia (lol), PI, or smaller labor law/civil lit practice (also lol)? Hoping to ride the Harvard LRAP train in my later days.
Is that shitty reasoning? |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:51 PM Author: iridescent hominid that might not be so bad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855383) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:03 PM Author: know-it-all locus Those (lol) things you mentioned are not necessarily lol from HLS.
Serious warning, though, that if you float through HLS hoping to just land in one of those places at the end, you won't. Refine your ideas about possible paths, when you get to school network early and hard to figure out what that kind of path looks like, and position yourself to make it a reality. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:14 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker thx (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855557) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:00 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center you're not helping your argument by saying "well i would bail on law for business if it weren't for the big fucking paycheck " (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855449) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:04 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch It isn't the money, its the obligations I have at this age that need to be paid for. That is why I wish I could just start over. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855482) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:07 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center cut out those obligations tell ur shrew wife to get a job or stop buying manolos (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855503) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:10 PM Author: know-it-all locus With all due respect, can you itemize those obligations and teach us how to avoid incurring them in the first place? Seriously insane to me that you would need $450k-$550k income stream to support a lifestyle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855526) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:23 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch $250k for taxes $60k for private school (2 kids) $15k for camp and after school shit $12k for car stuff (insurance, repair, gas, etc.) $72k for a house payments (I live in the bay area) $25k for college funds
So that is about $435k, and I haven't paid utilities, fed anyone, done anything fun, gone on vacations, bought anything, or saved a dime |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:24 PM Author: ultramarine mildly autistic regret dilemma just lol at kid-havers. I'm getting a vasectomy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855638) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:25 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Jesus Christ. I don't want to grow up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855647) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:29 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch you don't (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855680) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:26 PM Author: know-it-all locus Why would you buy such an expensive house and then send kids to private school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855651) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:29 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch that is a 2bd/2ba in SF. Our kids share a room.
On private school, every year we reconsider if we should make the move to public...but the publics in SF are shitty, so it is hard to do that to your kids when you can technically afford it.
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:29 PM Author: know-it-all locus All choices, I guess. Buying a house in SF proper is expensive as fuck, yes. And parochial schools are still cheaper.
Assuming your wife doesn't bring in much/any income? |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:05 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch no, she actually doesn't pretty well, which is the only way we are able to save.
Yes, definitely a choice to live in SF proper. We talk about leaving all the time, but can't bring ourselves to do it just yet. Main reason is I work until 7:30pm every night minimum and so hardly make it home to see the kids before they go to bed anyway...if we lived in Marin or the East Bay I'd never see them at night. |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 3:02 AM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center wtf @ 25K/yr for college funds, in 20 years that'd be half a mil, not even counting interest as they sit parked in an investment acct, you think you're going to have to spend half a mil on your two kids' college educations? ljl (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27858994) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 6:47 AM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Really bro?
How much do you think college is going to cost in 20 years? Let's say they both go to Stanford. It's what... 50-60k/year right now = 200k COA? At two kids that's already almost half a mil. |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:37 AM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel if they have any ability, they can get a high quality free education somewhere (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859432) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:09 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker clearly you are not a parent and nobody will ever mate with you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859763) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:16 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel unlike you i'm not azn (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859794) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:53 AM Author: Histrionic house cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865428) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:03 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch you are right. that is probably low. college for two kids if you want them to be able to go anywhere is about $500k....probably will be double that in 15 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859725) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:09 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel are your kids retarded or something? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859761) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:11 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch no, really smart. are the very top schools giving out major academic scholarships for people with no financial need? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859773) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:15 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel good, then they can get a good education for little to nothing. why is it so important that they go to the absolute highest ranked institutions? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859787) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:16 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker So they don't end up a miserable fucking lawyer like you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859793) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:16 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel you seem confused (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859797) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:18 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What part of wanting your kids to go to a Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, etc. and thus maximize their opportunities for life is difficult for you to understand? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859810) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:23 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel lol at paying 500k for a modest or even non existent increase in your child's expected earnings
it's more about the parent's ego than anything else, HTH |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:39 AM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865414) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:18 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch you are asking why people want their kids to go to Harvard or Stanford over Appalachian state? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859807) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:21 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel subject is more important than institution, and undergrad institution won't restrict your precious spawn's options. if you're azn and collecting markers of status is the purpose of life, that sucks for you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859830) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:40 AM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865415) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 6:02 AM Author: charismatic grizzly pervert weird flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865435) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 12:51 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel (azn) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27866828) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 7:25 AM Author: bateful lettuce if you are making 550 you are not paying fucking more than 125 in total fed/state taxes
you are a fucking shitty flamethrower |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:34 AM Author: Lilac fanboi indian lodge 250k actually sounds about right, especially given that they live in Cali which has a very high state income tax rate. 125k wouldn't come close to covering fed taxes alone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859420) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:02 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch lol. I wish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859720) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:49 PM Author: bateful lettuce look fucktard, your shitty flame is shitty flame
there is no fucking way your effective rate is more than 30% much less the 50% you claim |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:57 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch you sound like one of the people who thinks the well off don't pay their fair share...because you grossly underestimate how much they pay.
Let me help you out:
http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/salary/
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:37 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine what would u do instead???? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855293) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:50 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker No idea. Maybe govt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855381) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:38 PM Author: brindle theater what do you make? are you happier as a mid size law partner than if you'd gone in house? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855304) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:41 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch expect about $450-550k this year
I'm never going to be happy as a lawyer in any position. It just isn't an enjoyable thing to do. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:45 PM Author: brindle theater I went in-house not too long ago for a little more than half of that, but trying to decide whether to go back and try to be partner at a midsize firm. the plan would be to make my current employer my biggest client. decadent or shrewd? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855350) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:47 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch how much work do you think they would give you dollar wise? are they fickle or do you think it would be a long term client? Could be very shrewd. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855360) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:52 PM Author: brindle theater I think to be sure i'd get good, reliable business i'd need to stay in-house another 2 years or so. the thing is that I work 9-6 and I think that in another 10 years I could be pushing 400k in house, so part of me questions whether the added stress/job insecurity is really worth a minor pay bump.
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:53 PM Author: iridescent hominid probably not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855398) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:55 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch probably not, but I'd be bored to death in-house as a lawyer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855414) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:57 PM Author: brindle theater ok ty. I kind of like what I do in-house. i'll see where things stand in a couple of years, but there's a good chance i'll stay put. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855427) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:50 PM Author: marvelous office pisswyrm One doesn't have to practice law with a HLS degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855377) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:52 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What's the alternative? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855393) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:16 PM Author: marvelous office pisswyrm Banking Consulting High-end govt Join a top non-profit Politics Land a decent job at a F500 Start your own business |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:19 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch If you can get into HLS, going to HLS isn't going to help you much in any of those endeavors (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855601) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:27 PM Author: marvelous office pisswyrm That's not true. Plenty of people graduate from mediocre/lousy colleges with magna/summa honors and end up at HLS. Those same people wouldn't even get looked at for banking jobs, consulting jobs, strategy/biz development jobs at F500s, high level politics, etc. with their mediocre, tier 2/3 ugrad degree alone. However, a HLS degree pretty much certifies that one is highly intelligent and has been granted a seal of approval by one of the top 3 universities in the world. The masses (including hiring managers) respect a Harvard JD, and as a result, doors open. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855654) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:53 PM Author: Cerebral autistic sweet tailpipe brunch yeah true, but then you just wasted three years at HLS, because HLS surely doesn't set you up to do anything else (although it doesn't necessarily get in the way if you have an otherwise solid pedigree) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855397) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:01 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center any particular reason you don't pick a retirement $ number and then retire when you hit it? you know you don't HAVE to work until you're 65 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855453) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:40 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Tbf I'm not interested in business-related shit. Would be looking more toward academia or PI longer run... maybe govt. Hiring in all of those but especially academia in particular I know is a shit show for LS grads so... hence the caution. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855314) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:02 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center you can get a full ride to a regular LS if you're going to do PI, you don't need H for that shit, and you're going to waste a TON of money if you go to H intending to do personal injury (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855459) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:04 PM Author: know-it-all locus lol public interest (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855475) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:08 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center kill urself then, half a page up weren't you talking about basing decisions based on guaranteed income? u realize PI pays shit, right, and most people who do it are either POOR AS FUARK or they're rich ballers who are on a second career (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855507) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:09 PM Author: know-it-all locus ...I am not the OP? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855520) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:13 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker I'm the OP and I didn't say shit about basing decisions based on guaranteed income? Where did you get that idea? I floated PI as an option the context of LRAP which would keep loan payments relatively low. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855548) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:36 PM Author: Erotic Vermilion Sound Barrier Great investment. Put your head up and don't look back (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855287) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:39 PM Author: glittery jet stage you will love every minute of biglaw. Never forget your JD training (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855307) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:44 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Explain? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855340) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:56 PM Author: Arousing talking whorehouse Dramatically increases your earning potential, lay social prestige, etc. you have the rest of your life in front of you. Invest in yourself now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855423) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:38 PM Author: dark disrespectful school cafeteria Makes your dick bigger too. It's crazy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855762) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:39 PM Author: Navy school no dont do it. law is horrible. taking your time, working some middling job, going to a middling b school and striving for banking/consulting is still better. law is pure shit and spending that much money to learn nothing and get some awful job is a joke. dont do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855305) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:41 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine If he got into Harvard law, he could probably get into Harvard business school or a top 5 business school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855315) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:42 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Nah prob not. Decent work experience but its all NGO/academic shit. No private sector background. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855329) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:05 PM Author: stirring trailer park rigor Are you kidding? Business schools love NGO and nonprofit work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27860353) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:22 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker I'd have no idea how to make it business-relevant. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27860444) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:42 PM Author: iridescent hominid might not have the number sense for banking/consulting, and in any case, what's so great about either of those fields as options (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855326) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:42 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine how are they any better than BIGLAW? They are just as brutal in terms of hours (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855328) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:46 PM Author: iridescent hominid that's essentially my sense and question, yes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855354) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:47 PM Author: Razzmatazz shrine yea seems like the same thing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855366) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:43 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker This is correct. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855335) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:47 PM Author: Navy school the number sense? forget that nonsense. anyone who can get into harvard law school has the number sense to handle banking. also, finance is clearly, hands down, a better option with better long-term opportunities. there's more money and more opportunity to do something that you find to be a good fit in the long run. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855364) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:50 PM Author: iridescent hominid well you'd have to show more of your work to convince me of any of this, but no worries. it's not like i troll here for how great law is; i did yhs and have built what i expect to be a pretty good career going forward, and nevertheless am sure that there were better paths available to me (some of which i'm already aware of; others of which i may never be) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855376) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:55 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Explain "better paths?" Also what generally do you see your career trajectory to be? Private sector or??? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855413) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:06 PM Author: iridescent hominid i think i would have been far better off as a psychiatrist, or, short of that, a psychologist
i've been biglaw for a while; plan to go bigfed and beyond |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:57 PM Author: Navy school to convince you of what? you went to hys and can't handle adding/subtracting/extremely basic math? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855426) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:52 PM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel jjc pls (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855388) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:55 PM Author: Navy school no idea what jjc means (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855416) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:04 PM Author: Maniacal razzle-dazzle center with banking u get to work even MORE hours, and with consulting you get to travel a lot so you don't have to waste your valuable time with bullshit like putting down roots in a community! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855479) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:38 AM Author: Apoplectic charcoal jewess chapel and you'll also be MAKING A DIFFERENCE (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859442) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:41 PM Author: crimson station wrinkle No. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855316) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:41 PM Author: Dashing Codepig Faggot Firefighter Go to HLS, take a public interest job, enter politics, then call me up to be your poster wife and I will help you win a Senate seat. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855319) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:51 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker pics plz (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855386) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:53 PM Author: Dashing Codepig Faggot Firefighter All female xo posters are 9.5s, hth. (Knocking off 0.5 due to mental illness.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855396) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:41 PM Author: Startled Spot Windowlicker Have you tried selling sandwiches on the street? I have a method for saving money on a chair by sitting on the cooler instead.
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:18 PM Author: Vibrant abusive toaster (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855598) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:51 PM Author: Mustard beta piazza scourge upon the earth Defer for a year, study for the GMAT, take that, and see whether you can get into a top-7 b-school. If so, do that. If not, do HLS. But if you're wealthy or married to someone who's wealthy and you can keep up a nice lifestyle while actually doing PI after law school, since it seems like that's your main goal in life right now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855387) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:55 PM Author: Peach Impressive Mexican do you think you want to be a lawyer after actually giving this question some serious thought?
if yes, then HLS at $150k is a good investment.
if no, then YLS at $0 would be a bad investment.
most of the responses you'll get ITT will be the shapeless whining of xo's greek chorus of faggots about how they should have just done taco trucks or sold insurance or been a physician's assistant. it's completely useless to you. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:57 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Actually to my surprise most of the responses have been pretty good so far.
Do I want to be a lawyer? Yeah I think so. Do I want to be a corporate biglaw lawyer in NYC/DC/SF? No. - I'm hung up on that latter question because that seems to be the primary/dominant outcome of LS. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:00 PM Author: ultramarine mildly autistic regret dilemma so... you don't want to do the only kind of law where the $150k in debt WON'T be an anchor screwing you forever? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855450) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:02 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Far as I can tell LRAP makes other options viable. Please correct if I'm mistaken. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855461) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:02 PM Author: ultramarine mildly autistic regret dilemma someone link this dude that post that repeats "you are 50 years old." again and again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855464) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:30 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What's the relevance?
I'm not even close to 50. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:16 PM Author: bipolar spectacular knife that was my post in the repaye thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27856031) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:10 PM Author: Peach Impressive Mexican i'm not going to read the responses, but i'm guessing most of them are some variation of either "if you can do X then you can do Y so do Y beacuse i think Y>X" or "law is horrible what you need to do is drop $200k on kellogg because MBA jobs are the land of milk and honey." having some actual relevant experience here, i find this type of thinking useless, but if you are getting good advice ITT, awesome.
knowing what kind of lawyer you DON'T want to be isn't all that helpful to you or people trying to advise you. figure out what kind of lawyer you DO want to be and research how people who ARE that kind of lawyer got there.
xo posters are afflicted with unbearable buyer's remorse about FUCKING EVERYTHING. getting first hand knowledge of what it's like to work in a V10, or V100, or shitlaw environment is obviously helpful, but regard alternate paths anonymous people on the internet chart on your behalf with extreme skepticism, even if they assure you it's "sooo cr"
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:36 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Thx. Have a good idea of "what kind of lawyer" I want to be, but I worry about how realistic it is and I am relatively risk averse in general, so I do not want to end up HAVING to take a big law job ---> miserable. Was partially trying to feel out from people here how realistic "wanting to be an academic" or e.g, practicing union-side labor law out of HLS is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855742) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:23 PM Author: know-it-all locus To more specifically elaborate on my answer above (which was, "possible, but you better work bitch"):
I'll take the labor example, which I have a little insight into. There are a ton of opportunities through HLS to do labor stuff. There's an active org (LEAP), a leading professor (Sachs), and a variety of fellowships, both HLS and non-HLS specific. If you come in focused on that, or at least develop a credibly "demonstrated commitment" to it during your time in school, it is my belief you have a strong chance of getting some sort of position in union-side labor/employee-side employment, whether it's firm, union, or gov. With this type of thing, like public interest more broadly, connections and commitment are a lot more important than grades from HLS.
If you kind of dither and dabble, decide to do biglaw for "a few years" and then try to get back in, it is also my sense that it is much harder to get back into that track.
Academia seems like a fool's errand from anywhere. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:28 PM Author: Peach Impressive Mexican in my experience employee side labor law is realistic coming from HYS.
being a law professor is only "realistic" out of YLS, and only if you stretch the meaning of the word. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:29 PM Author: know-it-all locus so you're agreeing with me, neh?
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:33 PM Author: Peach Impressive Mexican what you said a couple posts above in my subthread sounds right to me.
i haven't been reading your posts elsewhere in this thread. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 4:59 PM Author: Arousing talking whorehouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855437) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:03 PM Author: flatulent exhilarant stag film legend the shapeless whining of xo's greek chorus of faggots
would be a great moniker. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:05 PM Author: bipolar spectacular knife no, this guy is playing along with the flame now that you've asked, but the fact that he didn't say he wanted to be a lawyer is dispositive. law school should only be for people who want to be lawyers or have a specific use for the degree already in mind. anyone else, even those who can got to t6 schools for free, are wasting their time in law school |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:11 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Excuse me? Playing along with the flame?
That I'm considering law school in the first place should be indicative that I want to be a lawyer. The point at issue (if you actually read my responses) was what kind of lawyer and whether those options (not big/corporate law) are realistic out HYS or financially viable with 150k of debt on LRAP.
How do you want me to phrase it next time? "Daddy I want to be a lawyew when gwow up?" |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:20 PM Author: bipolar spectacular knife "That I'm considering law school in the first place should be indicative that I want to be a lawyer." haha, i believe you now. no one who has been around here long enough to have any clue would ever say this. if you are going to acquire substantial debt, i.e. over $100k, by the time you finish law school, then you absolutely no exceptions don't be a dumb bitch and try to argue otherwise must go the biglaw route if you have that option and you should try to pay down your debt to a manageable level <$100k as quickly as you are able to before you ever consider leaving biglaw. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:22 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Awesome. This is a good response. Thanks.
Assuming 150k debt, on 160k starting salary +10k bonus and also assuming $0 assets to start, how long do you reckon to pay that debt down by half and how much do you think is realistic to save in that timeframe? |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:25 PM Author: bipolar spectacular knife if you are smart enough to get into hls, you better be smart enough to figure this shit out on your own the simple answer is as fast as you can. that means rewarding yourself only enough to stay sane while you pay off debt. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:01 PM Author: Amethyst contagious plaza organic girlfriend HYS grad '13 and current COA clerk. Seriously contemplating taking a job next year that would force me to live with roommates at age 30. Debt is a serious issue, even with my school's LRAP. So, I would say don't go. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855458) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:04 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What kind of job? Also I have an SO so roommates isn't an issue... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855477) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:06 PM Author: Amethyst contagious plaza organic girlfriend Public interest job that I would enjoy, but would keep me under 6 figures in SF/NY for the foreseeable future.
If you have a SO willing to subsidize your lifestyle, then don't worry about the debt. But if you don't, and you want to do things like own a house, have kids, save for retirement, etc. then be prepared to put in a few years of biglaw. |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:09 PM Author: know-it-all locus tcr is have rich parents amirite? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855516) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:17 PM Author: boyish filthpig stead no, you shouldn't go to law school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855581) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:17 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Thx. Insight if you have it plz. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855590) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:42 PM Author: boyish filthpig stead just don't go. biglaw is awful (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855795) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:25 PM Author: Hot base It's akin to asking, "Should I marry this girl?"
If you have to ask, the answer is no. The people that are sure successes are the people who are DRIVEN to be lawyers and don't ask that kind of question. Just like the great marriages didnt begin with doubt.
That is not to say that a big chunk of the doubters (even the majority) may not also succeed, but the risk is not worth it because the stakes are your life.
tl;dr - Only be a lawyer if you HAVE to be a lawyer and you obviously dont |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:37 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker WTF does HAVE to be a lawyer mean? Nobody has to be a lawyer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855752) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 6:13 PM Author: bipolar spectacular knife it's fair to change HAVE to WANT. i think he is using have to mean it's something you are passionate about wanting to do. law school is only for people who want to be lawyers. however once you have committed to law school and acquired more debt than you will be able to pay off through almost any regular job, that's when you HAVE to be a lawyer. so, yes, some people do have to be one. they should just be the people who wanted to in the first place and were too stupid to keep their debt down or haven't been practicing law long enough to get it down. |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:42 AM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865417) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:32 PM Author: thriller circlehead I did full ride at CCN. Not worth it, certainly not worth it to pay for HLS. If I hadn't gone to law school, I would have gotten a business going and would be worth six figures right now. Instead, I'm miserable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855700) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:34 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker What kind of business? What do you do now, big law? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855721) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:36 PM Author: thriller circlehead biglaw yes. I actually had the original idea for the iPhone and wish I had fleshed that out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855749) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:37 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker u got robbed bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855755) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:39 PM Author: ultramarine mildly autistic regret dilemma are you a first year? how did you get a full ride and work biglaw and not have a 6-fig net worth? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855770) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:41 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker I'm guessing he's junior associate biglaw and took out loans to cover Cost of Living in NYC = ~75k debt? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855784) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 5:39 PM Author: Narrow-minded sick stage Are u in biglaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27855768) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 12:51 PM Author: Irradiated Set New Version I had the same experience and I second this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27866832) |
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Date: May 9th, 2015 11:28 PM Author: excitant church building friendly grandma Why not just do SLS instead? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27858016) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 2:21 AM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker wtf question is that. Because I am from the East Coast and fuck the West Coast. All around pussy attitudes over there. I can maybe end up at Yale too and I'd take that over SLS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27858882) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:14 AM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge I ended up paying 154k for my YHS degree, lived like an absolute pauper and paid back those loans in a little over three years.
It was a mistake. Should've taken the full ride at DOOK or some other lower T14. Being a slave to debt is unbearable. Having to work big law really sucks.
Now I have the degree, great Biglaw experience. Where are my open doors? Been trying to find an in house job or BigFed job for literally two years without success. Where are these YHS "open doors?" |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:23 AM Author: Razzmatazz shrine so are u still in biglaw or unemployed? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859391) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 10:35 AM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge Still in Biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859422) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:11 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Ugh. Bummer. Where would you really like to end up? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859770) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:19 PM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge BigFed. Would love to reclaim some free time and have a strong desire to work for a mission instead of the banksters I rep now. Just really hard to even get an interview. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859821) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:23 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Undergrad in...? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859843) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:43 PM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge Poly sci shithead from an extremely obscure college (got a full ride so no undergrad loans thankfully) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27859920) |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:48 PM Author: Rough-skinned candlestick maker Pretty similar here, but I'm like one step up from poli sci shithead and have Masters too. No debt.
Doesn't bode well for me if you're any indication. |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 12:57 PM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge
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Date: May 10th, 2015 1:26 PM Author: Amethyst contagious plaza organic girlfriend bro what do you think my question:
http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=2874449&mc=20&forum_id=2 |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 1:34 PM Author: magical mind-boggling lodge If your goal is to be an AUSA I would definitely do the state AG. I actually made it several rounds in the AUSA hiring process before being dinged and have several friends in AUSA offices. They are fucking hungry for people who have trial experience. And outside of an AUSA the state AG is the best way to do it. You won't learn dick about trial work in Biglaw.
That being said, people do make leap to AUSA from Biglaw. It isn't impossible at all. The money is great. The lifestyle is dog shit. Your decision is tough - but I'd go state AG. |
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Date: May 10th, 2015 1:36 PM Author: Amethyst contagious plaza organic girlfriend ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27860181) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:33 AM Author: Jade pistol If I had to do it again I wouldn't do it. The debt+waste of three years that HLS will give you are too high an opportunity cost if you're a reasonably high achieving person anyway. I don't know what I'd be doing if I hadn't (probably either continued in consulting or working in tech) but I think at this stage, 7 years from when I started at HLS, I'd have more money, a better position (even if lower annual income), and more options, not least because I wouldn't have just finished clawing my way out of a debt hole.
That said, I'm currently a 4th year biglaw associate in London, and I like my job quite a bit, and at least for now I'm gunning for partner. I think what I do is interesting sometimes, and tolerable when it isn't, and the hours can be shit but would have been shit in banking, consulting, tech, whatever else that I did anyway. I look on people who did law in undergrad with no or minimal debt, and who are consequently more senior than me at the same age, and I'm envious, and I realize that I could have had that same deal in a different profession if I'd just kept working instead of going to law school |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 5:45 AM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage You seem like a smart dude so why would you ever consider "gunning for partner" in London biglaw? This is the same shitty path of least resistance thinking that led you to law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27865420) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 6:37 AM Author: Jade pistol Are you in London as well?
Hard to beat the comp for partnership in other fields, and seems like most people who want it and are pretty good are able to make it, even if it requires a step down in firm quality. For now though, the money's pretty good (US biglaw market + COLA is excellent), and I'm at least a couple years away from being too senior for exit options, so I'm happy to stay at my firm. And if I'm here, I'm much better off gunning for partner (i.e., working hard, trying to get on good deals, doing as much biz dev as possible, etc) rather than coasting. |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 12:53 PM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage You are not going to make partner. You don't realize how slim your chances are. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27866838) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 1:09 PM Author: Jade pistol I know my chances are slim, but I figure: - obviously some people make partner every year; - I'm in a good and growing practice area; and - whatever else I'm going to do will be served by at least a couple more years of biglaw. If I loathed the job, it would be different tradeoff and I'd be more put off by slim partnership odds, but I think it's pretty decent, so partnership prospects are kind of like stock options - it's like, hey, if it works out (and obviously I will do what I can to make it work out), I get a great benefit, but even if not, I like my job. |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 1:18 PM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage I mean. If u don't mind ur job and the pay is good then by all means stick around. But you shouldn't be under any illusions of becoming partner and you should also keep in mind that the longer you do this 144A shit the harder it is to change and do something else. Again. Nbd if you're cool with being a career ex pat of counsel. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27867028) |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 1:38 PM Author: Jade pistol It does actually seem like if you make it to 7th-8th year at a good firm, and you aren't completely burnt out by that point, that you have a maybe 20% chance to be made up, and if not, it seems like people tend to lateral down and get made up at shittier firms.
Did you go in-house?
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Date: May 11th, 2015 1:45 PM Author: Aphrodisiac theater stage Way lower than 20%. If you make it to year 9 you might have a 5% chance.
The way I see it play out is they get people to stay by dangling the partnership carrot in front of them for YEARS before finally counselpwning them.
No im still in biglaw lmao |
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Date: May 11th, 2015 2:32 PM Author: Jade pistol Well, hope that doesn't happen to me. I figure if you aren't made up in year 9, you should be looking to jump immediately - it's weird to me that so many people stick around for so long. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2875873&forum_id=2#27867562) |