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Damn it, another ding...
Poast new message in this thread
Date: November 4th, 2005 4:23 PM Author: floppy house Okay, would it be okay to email the hiring partner and ask why I got dinged? This was an Ohio firm.
For those keeping score: I have 3 callbacks left, all in NYC.
I'm really upset. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:24 PM Author: aphrodisiac pearly church building ratface Nothing from the ones you did last week? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213209) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:24 PM Author: floppy house That was that one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213214) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 6:01 PM Author: green hateful dragon party of the first part Date: November 4th, 2005 4:52 PM Author: Edgar the Board Hottie (Through Paying for Original Sin)
Sounds like somebody got the DING! DING! DING! from one or more of S&C, Cravath, & Wachtell. I didn't. HTfH
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=291918&forum_id=2#4213386)
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:53 PM Author: "the King" of DUI" (174) (Better, faster, stronger, more prestigious)
Dinged from two of those, yes.
DING! |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:24 PM Author: duck-like soggy office sure. why not? i don't really know what i'm talking about, but i don't see why not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213215) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:38 PM Author: crawly hall What she said. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213303) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:15 PM Author: floppy house Email sent. Hopefully I'll get something in response. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213511) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:16 PM Author: crawly hall I hope so too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213521) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:27 PM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression What do you have to lose by asking? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213235) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:28 PM Author: floppy house You guys are right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213239) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:32 PM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression Call the hiring partner instead of using e-mail. If you send him or her an e-mail, you'll get a canned response or none at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213270) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:36 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Fuck, why not just show up at the guy's office? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213297) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:39 PM Author: floppy house Yeah, that's the impression I get. Calling is just too intrusive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213313) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:27 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal diverse bawdyhouse NO. if you really want to find out, you have to call. it will suck, but that the type of shit you have to do if you want to make it.
call and you will get a much higher quality response. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:26 PM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression Evidently, we were wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218607) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:47 PM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression Calling is the only way to get a candid response. Any reply by e-mail would be disingenuous and therefore useless in determining why Fish was rejected. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213356) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:45 PM Author: Avocado stage I was also turned down by my home state firms after callback. However I have offers from other places.
My advice is, dont worry about the associates. just chat with them and ask them whatever questions you like. you can even ask them something funny about the partners you're going to interview with. lunch doesn't really matter either. just follow their lead.
But make sure to be on guard with the partners. especially the one on the hiring committee. |
Date: November 4th, 2005 4:28 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Aren't you like tp 1/3 or top 40%? How do you not have a job? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213243) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:30 PM Author: floppy house I'm about median. I have no idea. I feel sick right now I'm so upset. I have to say, this one hurt a lot more than the previous two.
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:37 PM Author: Mauve anal gaming laptop dilemma sorry man. i hope you the best. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213302) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:39 PM Author: floppy house Thanks... I don't know what I'll do if I burn through these 3 remaining callbacks.
Work for free somewhere shitty? Law was the biggest mistake of my pathetic life. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:41 PM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Do you think this is beginning to psyche you out during interviews? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213322) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:42 PM Author: floppy house I'm really worried about this at this point. My confidence is tripped, no doubt. And faking it is hard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213327) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:43 PM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Have you done a video-taped mock interview? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213333) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:46 PM Author: floppy house No, and there's no time. I'm flying out this weekend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213350) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:17 PM Author: crawly hall When do you leave? Honestly if I were you'd I'd cancle something tomorrow and show up at OCS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213527) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:17 PM Author: floppy house They're closed on weekends. Hell, they've probably left already. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213531) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:21 PM Author: crawly hall Yeah. Do you have any friends who've done one? Maybe they can help. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213560) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:39 PM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard What does the score stand at? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213312) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:43 PM Author: floppy house 6 callbacks, 3 dings. 2 were regional TTTs, non-V100. This one was a V100. The remainder are 3 V100s in NYC, my 1st NYC callbacks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213331) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:44 PM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard I wouldnt worry about the TTT's. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213337) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:45 PM Author: floppy house Yeah, I know they had low yields anyway. That's why this one hurt so much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213347) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:51 PM Author: aphrodisiac pearly church building ratface Did you think you were going to get it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213383) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:52 PM Author: floppy house Yes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213390) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:54 PM Author: duck-like soggy office what questions do you ask in the interview? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213398) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:55 PM Author: floppy house I ask about their experience.
I ask how to get more responsibility early.
I ask questions based on what they say to the previous 2 questions.
ADvice here would be helpful. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:58 PM Author: Saffron principal's office It doesn't really matter, but I have gotten good responses when I ask about pro bono, training, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213428) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:59 PM Author: floppy house Yeah, training is another one I ask about. I will in future add pro-bono to the list. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213430) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:07 PM Author: Dull Keepsake Machete Community Account Subject: I wouldn't Because law firms look at you as a source of billable hours, I've been told not to mention pro bono, since it means hours you won't be billing. Extremely strong candidates can ask about pro bono, bc law firms realize other firms want to hire them, too. But the average Joe has no such leverage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213476) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:10 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Law firms brag about their excellent pro bono work all the time. It's supposed to be a source of pride. Pro bono is also an important way to let young associates get real, substantive experience/training w/out the risk of fucking up for a paying client. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213484) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:12 PM Author: duck-like soggy office some firms are all about it, but i had a guy from one firm tell me he doesn't believe in pro bono because it's "unfair." i don't think it's across the board a good idea to ask about it, so i would avoid it, personally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213495) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:14 PM Author: floppy house Okay, cool. That's what I've been doing so far. I have enough non-profit and other stuff on my resume that its clear that I'll participate if they take that seriously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213504) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:17 PM Author: Saffron principal's office I'm sure that was an anomoly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213528) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:21 PM Author: duck-like soggy office yes, that is an extreme example, but i'm telling you, i had a list of firms I did OCI with by order of date, and my yeild percentage was MUCH higher after I stopped asking about pro bono. i just don't think fish should take any risks when there is other stuff to ask about like training, kinds of work people do, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213563) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:12 PM Author: Dull Keepsake Machete Community Account Sure, just like law firms brag about their "diversity". Don't mistake window dressing for the bricks and mortar. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213499) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:16 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Pro bono serves a useful function, unlike diversity (i.e., associate training). If diversity were useful in a non-charitable/good-feelings way, firms would care more about it. And some firms do care about it...mine seems to, anyway.
Let's not be crazy...of course no law firm is going to let associates bill 500 hours of pro bono. But I'm sure they probably want you to do some...or at the very least they don't mind. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: floppy house I can see how it would be risky though. I think its better left unsaid, especially since I have stuff on my resume that indicates that I'd be interested in it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213535) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:19 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Pro bono isn't a bad thing. It's good for both the firm and the associate. Especially for litigators.
Honestly, I've gotten many good responses asking about it. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:20 PM Author: floppy house I don't think I can afford risks at this point. I doubt this will get me the offer but I can see how it would make a bad impression. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213553) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:23 PM Author: Saffron principal's office And I'm saying it's not a risk...it looks good that you think about the training ops that pro bono provides. I mean, why ask about formal training at all, then? Every hour you spend getting CLE credit is an hour you can't bill, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213573) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:24 PM Author: floppy house But training indicates you want to become a good attorney. Pro bono might just indicate that you really want to do non-profit but just need the money, so you'll leave in 2 years once your loans are paid off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213579) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:28 PM Author: Saffron principal's office No dude...pro bono shows that you want to be a good attorney too, in both senses of the word. I think it's viewed as an insightful and mature question. Again, especially if you're interested in litigation. The best way to learn is by doing, and firms know this. Firms will most likely be able to tell if you're a public interest person or not. I mean, present the question as though it's about the training/substantive work aspect of pro bono, not merely the goody-goody aspect. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213599) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:58 PM Author: nighttime dashing kitty public bath Pro bono is good to talk about. Not because you want to do something bleeding-hearty, but because it'll give you more experience with trials etc. then you'd get as part of a huge litigation team.
A good question to ask if the interviewer brings up pro bono is whether the interviewer has done any pro bono cases themselves. They are happy to talk about themselves. Even if they don't talk about themselves, they probably know of some pro bono case the firm did that they're proud of becasue it makes them look less evil. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:20 PM Author: Dull Keepsake Machete Community Account Are you a top candidate; one they would hate to let get away? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213555) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:08 PM Author: duck-like soggy office i got VERY BAD results from asking about pro bono (but this was in screening... maybe it's different at the callback, but i avoided it in general). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213479) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:14 PM Author: floppy house Okay, good to know. I'll keep avoiding it in future. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213505) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:40 PM Author: irradiated kitchen codepig my regrets and best wishes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213314) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:43 PM Author: floppy house Thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213332) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:44 PM Author: Charcoal Toaster Senate Sorry man. I guess this just means you were meant to be in NYC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213342) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:47 PM Author: floppy house You know what? That is the right attitude. Fuck it, I spent most of my summers as a kid there, I guess I was meant to go back.
Thanks, seriously. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:47 PM Author: scarlet brunch "I spent most of my summers as a kid there"
That's a good thing to mention.
Also, mention that NYC is the preeminent legal market. The deal flow means that there's a lot more variety. Unequaled training.
Good luck, you fucker; I want you to get a job. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:48 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Who did you interview with? Did you interview w/a lot of vault NYC or Chi firms? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213367) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:49 PM Author: floppy house 2 non-V100 regionals.
1 V100 Ohio (I'm from the area).
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:49 PM Author: Saffron principal's office I mean screenings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213374) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:50 PM Author: floppy house 50 or so screenings. Focused on the coasts (NYC, LA, DC) and got nothing from the major markets. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213378) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:56 PM Author: Saffron principal's office Did you interview w/firms in the 40-70 range...firms like Morgan Lewis, Dechert, Bryan Cave, Strook, etc.? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213410) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:56 PM Author: floppy house Yes, though not enough so. I have some of those lined up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213415) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:57 PM Author: Saffron principal's office IMO, that's who you need to hit up.
EDIT: Have you sent out any resumes? |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 4:57 PM Author: floppy house I've sent out over 300 resumes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213425) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:15 PM Author: Flirting Glittery Fanboi Locale Why did you schedule your NYC callbacks so crazy late? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213514) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:16 PM Author: floppy house Because I recieved them crazy late. Which I'm hoping is a good thing since it means they have slots available. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213518) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:19 PM Author: Dull Keepsake Machete Community Account I'm guessing you're not their first choice, so you'll have to charm the pants off them. (Interpersonal skills can make up for not being a top student.) What worked best for me was researching the interviewers' recent triumphs, and just asking them about them. The more they talk, the better they liked me.
One question I got: tell me something about yourself that's not on the resume. Turned out this guy wanted to know what my core values were. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:16 PM Author: duck-like soggy office my guess is they were the result of resumes mailed after lack of success in oci. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213526) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:17 PM Author: floppy house Correct. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213529) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: Flirting Glittery Fanboi Locale What general vault range? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213533) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:19 PM Author: floppy house All are between 20-80. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213541) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:21 PM Author: Flirting Glittery Fanboi Locale Hmm. Yeah, if they still have slots at this point (yale's flyback week was a week ago) they must have had low yield, so the timing is probably favorable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213561) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:22 PM Author: floppy house That's what I'm hoping for. I'd be thrilled at any one of these. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213569) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:32 PM Author: Flirting Glittery Fanboi Locale Its a better story if you get shut out, especially after that famous "looking forward to biglaw" thread. You really should take one for thr team. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213625) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:43 PM Author: floppy house Well, you may get your wish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213681) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:24 PM Author: dun flatulent laser beams haunted graveyard Strooooooooock? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213580) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:28 PM Author: floppy house Ding. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213600) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:33 PM Author: dun flatulent laser beams haunted graveyard Sorry to hear it. Good luck on your last few callbacks.
And keep in mind that living in NYC is immeasurably cooler than TTT Ohio. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:35 PM Author: floppy house I am aware of that. I wonder if that's why the dinged me. They kept wondering if I wanted to live in OH. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213638) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:20 AM Author: insane provocative point faggotry COL or CLE? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217667) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:21 AM Author: floppy house No, actually. But I'm not naming the firm.
No comment. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:01 AM Author: Ruby institution hey, FYI if you bowl a perfect game in Strooooooock bowl, they send you a bunch of shit including a letter that basically amounts to a job offer. I am DEAD serious. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218267) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:44 PM Author: floppy house I'm still waiting for all this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218680) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:17 PM Author: Arousing trust fund coldplay fan I love you very much sweetheart (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213530) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:19 PM Author: floppy house Thank you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213544) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:22 PM Author: Flirting Glittery Fanboi Locale Um, I think she was talking to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213566) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:25 PM Author: Arousing trust fund coldplay fan They weren't good enough fo ryou anyway. They just realized it before you did. You want to go to NY anyway :) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213589) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:26 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks Why not work overseas?
It'd be more interesting that doing shitwork in some law firm in the states. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:28 PM Author: floppy house I don't have that opportunity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213598) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:29 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks I'm sure you could find plenty of overseas organizations willing to take you on. I bet you haven't even looked. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213609) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:31 PM Author: Arousing trust fund coldplay fan TITCR (but I still hate you) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213613) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:35 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks Being without a job seems daunting, but the truth is, just by having gone to college and then two years of law school, you have a marketable set of skills that extends far beyond the narrow subset of jobs affiliated with private stateside law firms.
Buck up. It'll get better. You may need to look around rather than directly forward, but you've got some good stuff going for you. |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:37 PM Author: floppy house I hope so. Thanks, Petro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213648) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:39 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks I was unemployed for a while, too. Adrift, had nowhere to go. It made me look in different places, and that was what it took. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213662) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:44 PM Author: floppy house Interesting, but I think you have more desirable language skills, particularly at a time like this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213687) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:50 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks They didn't really play into the job I eventually got.
Thing is, most of the lucrative work in this country and others is outside of the practice of law. There are a lot of different agencies and organizations out there that may not initially be lucrative, but can get you new contacts, and new opportunities for other jobs you may not have considered.
Some of my friends in law school who went the firm route, and are now associates at large firms, seem to regret it. Some of them feel that by going straight up that well-trod path, they amputated their opportunities outside of firm-law at the knees.
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:41 PM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression But the real question is whether he'll end up with a job that is commensurate with three years and $100K of law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213672) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:34 PM Author: floppy house I've emailed some firms in Russia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213633) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:35 PM Author: Beady-eyed Coffee Pot Wagecucks It may be time to look beyond firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213639) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:39 PM Author: floppy house Most organizations don't take 2L summers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213657) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:41 PM Author: Arousing trust fund coldplay fan a lot of organizations take summer interns. The job may not be legal though. You haven't tried any of the big american businesses in moscow. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213668) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 6:00 PM Author: lime stirring tank selfie do you all talk more over xoxo than in person? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213753) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 6:00 PM Author: Arousing trust fund coldplay fan when fish isn't here, probably. I've been at home all day today, haven't talked to anyone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213761) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 6:03 PM Author: lime stirring tank selfie Fantastic! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213783) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 6:28 PM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard In Russia, the big american businesses try you! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213992) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 5:44 PM Author: federal titillating hairy legs foreskin This is beyond funny, esp considering the source. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4213688) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 7:28 PM Author: Demanding Lilac National Juggernaut The sad part is that this firm offered me a job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4214450) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:32 AM Author: floppy house I believe it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217393) |
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Date: November 4th, 2005 7:29 PM Author: Orange Stag Film how could you not convince them you'd return to ohio? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4214474) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:31 AM Author: floppy house I couldn't convince them I wasn't an asshole. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217390) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:31 AM Author: floppy house Update: Hiring partner actually emails back and writes out a long email detailing where I went wrong. Conclusion: those of you who said it was all personality were correct. That is all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217385) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:34 AM Author: trip carmine temple Can you elaborate on what he said? I'm curious to hear how they would explain a personality issue.
EDIT: Obviously, he didnt hate you or he would have trashed your email. So what was it? |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:35 AM Author: floppy house Very, very directly. The email said I came off as self absorbed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217416) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:37 AM Author: trip carmine temple Self-absorbed as in self-impressed? Self-absorbed as in only talks about yourself and doesnt seem to have questions about the firm? I mean, its an interview. Its about you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217430) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:38 AM Author: floppy house I think as in "you're an asshole, dude." In another place one guy stated that I build relationships for strategic purposes only. Bad news, bad news. But at least I have a clue on what's killing me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217450) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:40 AM Author: trip carmine temple Jeez. So where do you go with that? Do you feel like you have specific things you may have said that you can make sure to avoid? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217466) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:45 AM Author: floppy house Well... My first interview went badly. The dude didn't seem to want to talk to me (maybe like he was in a hurry). 30 minute interview, he gets done asking me questions (which consisted of "do I really wanted to be in location X, no really, because that's really the question...") in 5 minutes. I ask questions for 15-20 minutes - he gives quick answers. I ask if he has more Qs for me and he says "no" and takes me to my next interview. Interview ends 5 minutes early. Apparently, he thought I had no interest in talking to him (because he was an associate and not a partner?) which led to this issue. Totally incorrect. Then I guess my answers were also too short and too the point, which didn't lead to trust.
On the bright side, the email specifically stated that my grades, school, and talent were excellent. Its just me that sucks. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:47 AM Author: trip carmine temple well, i guess there's the hope that your direct, no frills attitude will mesh better with the new york biglaw culture than with some midwestern firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217510) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:50 AM Author: floppy house That's what I'm hoping for. This also makes me wonder the extent to which I should change. I have some clear pointers ("don't let the interview end early, ever!"), but otherwise, I don't want to overcompensate when going to an intense market. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217522) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:05 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard I used a combination of self-deprecating/arrogance that played very well. I would confidently say what I wanted to do then add the caveat "but hey, I've only been in law school for a year so I'll be honest when I say I don't know a whole lot, which is why I want to be with you guys because you have (x)". Answers like these made me come off as a person who knew what he wanted but didn't feel like he had all the answers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217578) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:16 AM Author: floppy house My next firm is a reach. I'm not sure that's a good idea since they'll already be wondering about my grades. Aside from which, I have a lot of extras that make me a pretty qualified candidate.
Honestly, I just need to make more smalltalk and focus less on selling myself. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:18 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217662) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:20 AM Author: floppy house Interesting.
I don't think it'll play well with my style and resume, especially for NYC reaches. I can see how this would be great for some people. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:26 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard I also spent the first minute or two before the talking began collecting information about the person based off of what I could see. I then tailored my personality to match. I had something like a 95% success rate at finding a topic the person was genuinely interested in and once I found that I just sat there and relaxed while the conversation flowed naturally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217688) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:27 AM Author: floppy house What do you mean? Before the talking began? Two minutes never go buy before talking begins. I'm kind of confused here, yet this sounds interesting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217697) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:28 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Well, normally they stand up for the handshake. By the time they sit down and arrange my papers so they know who the hell they're dealing with I normally have a pretty grasp of who the hell I'm dealing with. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217704) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:33 AM Author: floppy house How? I mean, what can you tell in those few seconds? I guess you can look around the office. Maybe I'm failing to read something I should be reading in those few critical moments. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217725) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:40 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217755) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:43 AM Author: floppy house Interesting. Good info. Thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217772) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:02 AM Author: aphrodisiac pearly church building ratface That's basically exactly what I did. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217826) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:52 PM Author: scarlet brunch "I ask if he has more Qs for me and he says 'no' and takes me to my next interview."
NEVER ask if they have more Qs for you. You fill up the deadtime with your own questions, or commentary. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:59 AM Author: Indigo exhilarant really tough guy self-absorbed means arrogant which isn't how he comes across in these threads, or perhaps irl, but perhaps he does (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217567) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:41 AM Author: floppy house That's what's odd to me. I didn't think I remotely came off that way. But I guess I had a very "here's what I can do for the firm, here's what experience I have..." I mean, I always figure that you sell yourself at interviews. I never do crap like say "well, I go to NU and I rock, so you should be happy to have me..."
Also, I've been worrying about seeming desperate and insecure, so I guess I haven't been watching as much for this. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:07 AM Author: Ruby institution Question: are you saying stuff like when they talk about client relationships you say "yeah that's like when i was working at XXX and my clients would do blah blah blah" or are you just randomly throwing in "Well my bosses all loved me and thought i was supersweet." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218270) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:44 PM Author: floppy house More like "I realize that client relationships are very important and I have some experience in dealing with clients from the clinic." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218678) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:40 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal diverse bawdyhouse oh no. you don't talk like that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218328) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:00 PM Author: floppy house What should I talk like? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218749) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:43 AM Author: Orange Stag Film that's pretty flat out direct. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218257) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:37 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal diverse bawdyhouse this is VERY good information. something you can definitely fix. just act less self absorbed. ask mandy if she knows what they are talking about. she probably does and can help. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218314) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:35 AM Author: lime stirring tank selfie (Before I post, I want to apologize for starting that thread the other day about Ruskie having 4 offers - it was pretty fucking mean)
OK, you have 3 more callbacks. You have to figure out where you're going wrong. You need to be enthusiastic without being cheesy, confident without being arrogant. And you have to express a genuine interest in being at these firms in NY next week. You don't need to sell yourself on why you want to be in NY - they will assume you do. But if they ask the question, just say that "its the top legal market and I want to have a career here." |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:37 AM Author: floppy house Yep, I'm good to go for NYC. I'm actually really thankful for his email because now I know what's up. If I can avoid my mistakes I think I'll be good. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217432) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:38 AM Author: lime stirring tank selfie well, does self-absorbed mean type A arrogant prick, or someone who won't work well in a team, or what? hopefully you'll figure it out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217447) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:39 AM Author: floppy house Arrogant prick, methinks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217452) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:14 AM Author: bronze self-centered space nowag The most important factor in whether most people will give you a good review or not is whether you are someone that they would want to work with. You need to make yourself likeable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217637) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:17 AM Author: floppy house "You need to make yourself likeable."
Well I'm fucked. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:25 AM Author: bronze self-centered space nowag If you are not someone that they would want to spend time working with, be stuck at the office with at 2 in the morning, etc, then you probably are in trouble. There are enough people out there that there is no reason to hire someone that people don't like. At a lot of firms, I think even a top student at a top school could be in trouble if people generally don't like them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217687) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:28 AM Author: floppy house This appears to be my problem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217702) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 8:25 PM Author: Transparent crusty market (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4221465) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:25 AM Author: Pale vibrant digit ratio scourge upon the earth Brilliant. Seppuku? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218297) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:42 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I hope you and your whore fucking rot. You certainly both deserve nothing less.
Though I'm sure you'll have no problem using your parents as a safety net despite hating them and then criticize me for living with mine.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:47 AM Author: floppy house I hope this made your evening. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217507) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:02 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I'm holding out for when *mandy* leaves you for a real man who can provide for her and her trips to the zoo.
Now that will make my day. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:05 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard J. why ya gotta kick em when he's down? You strike me as a better person than this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217585) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:07 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I was rooting for him at the start. I mean, how can you not be sympathetic to some one attached to *mandy*?
He no longer deserves the support. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:11 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard It just seems that he deserves a little compassion. I'm perfectly willing to flame him most of the time, but today was already crappy enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217613) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:13 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I would disagree. When his parents cut him off financially and mandy cheats on him, then perhaps I'll...actually, I'll still probably laugh and ask for more shit to be piled on. It's a shame his parents aren't dead so I can't post their obituaries.
What can I say? I think he's a rotten person, and it's nice to see that every law firm in the country agrees with me. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:17 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Bleh, I'll just write this off as a pissy day for you. I realize you've got some serious bitterness toward this guy, but your messing with the way I picture you--please stop. I like the idea of you beading happily, mean J messes with my fragile reality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217656) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:27 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I'm not bitter.
Fish is just an unlikeable fuck, and apparently a million out of a million lawyers agree. He has no problems piling it on me, and thus I have no problems piling it on him.
He is an asshole through and through. But please, guys, keep building up his confidence and telling him how great he seems like on the board. It will make his rejections from New York all that more enjoyable.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:34 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard For some reason I just don't see why it matters enough to you to spend the time decrying him here. It's apparent he's getting pwn3d, and I figure that's enough without the added salt on the wounds. Yea, you take a lot of shit here, but it always seemed to me that it wasn't a big deal to you. It just strikes me as odd that you've begun such a violent lash-out against some of the people on the board.
It's entirely your perogative, but I liked you a lot better when you beaded and gave excellent analysis on various musicians. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:38 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse Begun?
What the fuck? Where have you been?
I was actually sympathetic to Fish at the beginning as I was having trouble finding a job as well. But he showed himself to be an asshole and I have treated him as such ever since.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:39 AM Author: floppy house You know what? If I get one of these NYC jobs I'm going to be nice to you, despite how mean you've been to myself, Mandy, and others.
I figure I need a sacrificial lamb here and this is it. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:41 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse Making promises to God is neither amusing nor funny, it's just pathetic, Fish.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:44 AM Author: floppy house I am at my most pathetic hour right here, right now.
You want pathetic? I nearly cried when I got the ding. I kept myself from doing so, but it was close. Now that's pathetic. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:46 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse See, now you're back to being funny and amusing. Good on you. It would have been much funnier had you bawled, but I'll take what I can get.
What was the name of the thread where you were bragging about how well you did in this interview and how you were going to get the job? I'd like to bump it now.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:48 AM Author: floppy house Geez, I honestly don't remember. I don't think I started my own thread for this. If I did maybe I put "Fish" in the title. Happy hunting.
But if you're looking for fun stuff to bump the "Meanest Fish, the feel good story of 1L" thread is great. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:50 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217794) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:51 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse You're really starting to fucking annoy me.
I'm doing absolutely nothing to Fish that he hasn't done to me a thousand times.
Take your self righteousness elsewhere, asshat. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:53 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard If I was around he has was giving you shit under similar circumstances I'd say the exact same thing to him.
No need to be so violently defensive, I've never attacked you. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:54 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse He has given me shit under similar circumstances, so go fuck yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217804) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:58 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard If I was around was the operative phrase there. I haven't seen him do it to you elsewhere, but I don't dispute that he has done so. Normally the threads of yours that I click on don't have him on there. Either way, let me re-iterate that I am not attacking you. Not everyone on this board thinks of you poorly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217816) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:43 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217776) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:45 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse Better start thinking of a new screenname. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217779) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:47 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217788) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:08 AM Author: aphrodisiac pearly church building ratface You're such a bitch. Enjoy hell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217838) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:13 AM Author: floppy house You just might get your wish. Sadly, I doubt I'll make the suicide post so you won't know when I die. Sorry about that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217630) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:16 AM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse Well that's just rude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217649) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:18 AM Author: floppy house Sorry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217657) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:48 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Saucer of milk, table 3. MEEE-OWW (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217516) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:07 AM Author: Indigo exhilarant really tough guy Your willingness to help out people on fire by spraying them with gasoline is refreshingly honest. If I made a list of posters who suck, you wouldn't be on it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217592) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:08 AM Author: citrine main people hunting ground Too bad the interviews aren't conducted via XOXO posts. You'd come off as a fundamentally decent guy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217600) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:14 AM Author: floppy house Haha, thanks. Great concept, by the way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217636) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:16 AM Author: citrine main people hunting ground Perhaps Renada could give you (us?) some pointers-- I'm probably going to suffer from the same difficulties in interviews.
Of course, this does presume that he actually exists. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:33 AM Author: floppy house Yeah, advice is always good. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217727) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:29 AM Author: snowy laughsome idea he suggested meetinghouse it's difficult to be sure exactly what's going on. obviously something is going wrong at the interview. i haven't done interviews for a while, but thinking back, in all honesty, if someone like a middle-of-the-class person from northwestern came in, they would tend not to look as good as the great majority of people who came from harvard, yale and stanford. most generally, those who have, or are likely to have, numerous offers tend to ask real questions.
by contrast, consider how plainly disingenuous a question that purports to yearn for "early responsibility" is. you are effectively saying: i want to work more (even though the prospect of 2100 minimum billables is my primary source of a bleak outlook on life), and i want lots of "responsibility" in a job i know nothing of. better interviews basically take up the same sorts of questions people ask here: does working in a firm blow, how much do you actually have to work, what happens to people who don't make partner, etc.
there have to be places where your credentials are distinguished, rather than ordinary, or worse. just as everyone wants a girlfriend a little better looking than themselves, there's a tendency to seek out a job that represents some defiance of the odds. sooner or later, everyone is well served by coming to an accommodation with the fact that you're not always going to end up somewhere that makes your prestige trajectory an increasing function.
and for what it's worth, while "fish" seems like a decent guy, he exudes nothing like the qualities of someone who would seem to have long-term value to a law firm. i imagine him being well-intentioned, but having not much of an eye for detail, and not a great capacity for complex analysis. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:42 AM Author: chartreuse mexican school You: consider how plainly disingenuous a question that purports to yearn for "early responsibility" is. you are effectively saying: i want to work more (even though the prospect of 2100 minimum billables is my primary source of a bleak outlook on life), and i want lots of "responsibility" in a job i know nothing of.
For the sake of discussion, can't the question fairly be interpreted to be an inquiry about the quality of the work, not its quantity, which, as you rightly said, is fairly settled? Maybe he sincerely wanted to know how much document review lies ahead. (At this point, it probably doesn't matter so he can scratch the question on the grounds that it's moot but not because it's disingenuous.) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:54 AM Author: snowy laughsome idea he suggested meetinghouse that's a reasonable point. but embedded in it is a caricature of what "document review" is. i waited all day today for some discovery responses to arrive today -- documents -- because they might answer questions i have had about a case for several months. to find out, i'll have to "review" them. a failure to understand what document review usually is if you're doing meaningful work utterly undermines any pretense to "early responsibility." by contrast, if there's even the slightest danger of being sequestered in the clasically monotonous document review, which really is a numbingly dull administrative and organizational task, then you're probably talking to the wrong firm -- wrong, that is, unless you are willing to trade doing heinous work for whatever the thrill is in telling people you work at a somewhat more prominent firm.
"early responsibility" is an empty phrase that law firms invented as a marketing device. while they might find some satisfaction in their slogan having attached to the minds of law students, they don't really want to hire people who seem to adopt it uncritically. the fact is, they are looking for people who can find an accommodation with the jadedness that's pervasive among those who work in firms, not do a second-rate job of pretending not to share the skepticism common to all but some of the very best students, who set an almost impossible interviewing standard for those who are conspicuously groveling to work in "biglaw," anywhere that will take them.
again, if you really want to play in the majors, but have only triple-A skills, even if you happen to find your way onto the big team, there will be a lot of time sitting on the bench. it's an "exit strategy," just not a very good one.
a really important qualification to this is that the only reason i might have anything at all useful to say is that i am describing my own misconceptions and fears around the time of interviewing for jobs, not suggesting that i was free of all the common delusions. now, sitting on the other side of it and with the advantage of time having passed, something very close to definite answers tends to come easily and obviously. bit it's impossible to convey in a believable way the key point to all of this, which is: it is an unusually complex job, in that ther eis a great deal to learn. there's a reason not even the greatest student in the history of harvard is not, and never will be, made a partner immediately upon graduating. there's at least two solid years' worth of learning just the fundamentals of the job, and at least another few years to grasp the nuances and come to the point of being genuinely and independently useful. it is within that passage that you either quit in despair, find a way to survive in mediocrity, or become truly good at it. and only the last of these possibilities holds the prospect of actually liking it. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 8:43 AM Author: hairraiser hell au,apfri,oc,tcr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218206) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:21 AM Author: charismatic swollen candlestick maker nursing home are you in law and econ this semester (colloquim)? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217670) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:22 AM Author: floppy house Yes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217676) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:27 AM Author: charismatic swollen candlestick maker nursing home me too. i think i know who you are. i'm guessing that i'm not that hard to figure out either. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217692) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:30 AM Author: floppy house I don't recall you ever releasing any info on the board so I can't tell, other than you're one of the guys...
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:28 AM Author: chartreuse mexican school Where is your office of career services in all this? Can't they intervene for you like in a way that a guidance counselor might help out a student who can't close the dea? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217699) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:31 AM Author: floppy house What are they going to do? Other than tell me to stop being an "unlikeable fuck" as J. so eloquently and correctly stated. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217720) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:40 AM Author: chartreuse mexican school They must have developed relationships with some firms over the years - they can go to bat for you, assure them of your solid qualifications. It's hard to believe that every firm demands a sparkling personality as a prerequisite for a job. Career services may have "ins" at smaller firms or firms operating below radar. Somebody out there wants someone who's simply a worker and not a dinner party partner. You're paying a lot of money for the school's resources, you might as well exploit them to the fullest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217754) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:45 AM Author: floppy house I've got 3 more great callbacks. If these dry up I'll come on all fours there begging for anything they got. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217782) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:52 AM Author: chartreuse mexican school Good luck. The idea is not for you to go crawling but to get someone from your school to intervene.
I don't mean to be facetious when I say that your personality might be more well-suited to the NYC market. (not from what you post here but from your description of what's going on) Also, if worse comes to worse, NYlawyer.com has a fairly large, active online classified ad section. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:59 AM Author: floppy house Oh, I meant to crawl to the OCS.
Oh yeah, I'm hoping this is the case. Actually, multiple firms have asked why I'm not going to NYC.
Ooooh, thanks for the info. I'll check that site out.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 8:36 PM Author: chartreuse mexican school Also check this one -
The Association of the Bar of the City of NY
http://abcny.legalstaff.com/jobs/cobrand_job_search.asp
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:34 AM Author: Tripping fragrant property cuck Goddamn, that sucks. Sorry, Fish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217729) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:37 AM Author: floppy house Yeah, but its half time and my best (by far) opportunities are still ahead of me. I know what I'm doing wrong, and I think that combined with a market that suits my personality more I can pull through. At least they didn't say "damn, your resume just sucked and no one will hire you, loser..." Because I can't change that. I think I made a few critical mistakes that he detailed that I can avoid in future. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217737) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:45 AM Author: Disgusting center All right! I confess! I've been posting flyers all over your interviewing towns with your photo and the words "[Meanest Fish's real name] has airborne SuperAIDS! Plus, he's a communist! With rabies! DO NOT HIRE DEAD OR ALIVE!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217781) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:46 AM Author: floppy house I'd think that would have been mentioned in the email. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217784) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:47 AM Author: Disgusting center Nobody's gonna tell you they KNOW you have rabies and superAIDS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217790) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 2:49 AM Author: floppy house *wipes foam from mouth*
Good point. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:00 AM Author: Disgusting center You might wanna think about drinking some Rug Doctor Anti-Foam before going into your next interview. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217824) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:00 AM Author: excitant gaped den Do you want people to feel sad for you? I will shed a tear and make a prayer for you... not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217823) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:06 AM Author: floppy house I was hoping for impressions and advice, which I got. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217830) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:09 AM Author: excitant gaped den You seem way too hung up on going to biglaw. Maybe all these dings is fates way of telling you that it's not for you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217845) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:18 AM Author: floppy house I need cash. Hence biglaw.
If I was rich and had no debt I'd be less worried right now. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:09 AM Author: Disgusting center I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks Fish is an utter asshole! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217844) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:11 AM Author: chestnut ticket booth gay wizard Are there any particularly notable threads where you picked this info up? I totally missed this aspect of his personality. Only thing I remember was him and mandy getting into some random XOXO fight a few weeks back where she aired the dirty laundry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4217853) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:51 AM Author: obsidian pistol he was arrogant in the typical xoxo way. doesn't mean he is a bad guy, and certainly doesn't mean people should enjoy his problems at present.
personally, i think his willingness to chronicle his saga is pretty cool. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:50 AM Author: Apoplectic electric immigrant range ouch. sorry, man. what kinds of questions are you asking interviewers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218263) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:59 PM Author: floppy house Just about their experiences, about associate training and development, getting responsibility early. I mean, that's what I care about. I'm not asking questions just to ask questions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218747) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:57 AM Author: territorial legend native I apologize if these questions seem obvious, but:
* Do you make eye contact with your interviewers? In a non-threatening way?
* Do you smile? Pleasantly? Ghoulishly? Are you sure?
* How's your handshake? How long do you hold the other person's hand when shaking?
* Do you check out your female interviewers?
* Do you use proper table manners during lunch? Do you slurp soup?
* Do you remember to use deodorant and to take a shower before your interview?
* If you have an afternoon interview, do you just shave at 6 AM in the morning, or do you come clean-shaven?
* Do you shine your shoes?
It might just be bad luck; some people just get screwed by the process. But there are some obvious things you can do that will put people's backs up, and you may be unaware that you're doing them. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:48 PM Author: Dull Keepsake Machete Community Account I haven't been checking out my female interviewers; should I have been? I had trouble making eye contact with one because she looked like freaking Halle Berry. I had trouble making eye contact with another because her nose looked like an Idaho russet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218700) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:48 PM Author: floppy house Check out the female interviewers? I have to admit that at this stage sex is the furthest thing from my mind at these interviews.
I actually pretty much always order something that's fool-proof at lunch - like a steak. No soup that can spill or salad that can get dressing on things or sandwiches that can fall apart.
Shit, I don't shine my shoes. Okay, I'll do that next time.
So far they've all been morning.
The first three - its one of those where I think I'm alright but what do I know. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:05 AM Author: Poppy low-t corner O.K. Here's my impression about what you're doing wrong: You're too high on yourself and your abilities. You stated above that you try to convince them of what you can do for the firms. This is the absolute wrong track to take in your interviews. At this point, you (and all of us) know absolutely nothing and can do very little. You should be trying to convey humbleness and a willingness to learn. The first step to conveying this is trying to get to know your interviewer and appear interested in who they are and what they have to say. Don't just treat them as a vehicle for information about the firm or a way to convince them of how great you are. Try to get them to talk about what they do in a typical day, outside interests, etc. and listen to what they have to say. Have a conversation with them, not an interview. Remember, you know nothing and if you're not interested in listening to them in the interview, they'll think that you're not going to listen to them at work. FWIW, I had 10 interviews, 8 callbacks, and 7 offers (no tech background). Good luck! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218269) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:49 PM Author: floppy house "You're too high on yourself and your abilities."
Are you kidding? My self esteem hasn't been this bad in years. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:54 PM Author: Poppy low-t corner Your self esteem may be in shambles, but your comments on this thread suggest that you're not coming across with the right attitude at interviews. Here's a couple of the things that you said:
"I have a lot of extras that make me a pretty qualified candidate"
"But I guess I had a very 'here's what I can do for the firm, here's what experience I have...' I mean, I always figure that you sell yourself at interviews"
Seriously--this is the wrong attitude to take. All of us know very little about the law and add very little to the firm. What you're selling is the capability to learn more and the willingness to work hard for the firm. All you need to convince them of is that you're not an ass and that you'll listen to what they'll tell you.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:11 AM Author: Ruby institution Question: are you saying stuff like when they talk about client relationships you say "yeah that's like when i was working at XXX and my clients would do blah blah blah" or are you just randomly throwing in "Well my bosses all loved me and thought i was supersweet."
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:59 PM Author: floppy house More like "I realize that client relationships are very important and I have some experience in dealing with clients from the clinic." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218744) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:24 AM Author: Pale vibrant digit ratio scourge upon the earth Why are people feeling sorry for this putz? There's nothing particularly sad about his story. Lots of people don't get high-paying 2L jobs, and his sense of entitlement on this board is long-running. Fuck him, his TTT, and his dumb slut of a girlfriend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218294) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 11:26 AM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression I don't feel sorry for him, but I don't contest his sense of entitlement, either. He's at the median at a top-10 school, so he has a reasonable expectation of BIGLAW. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218444) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 11:27 AM Author: Pale vibrant digit ratio scourge upon the earth top-10. lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218450) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 11:31 AM Author: slimy harsh indian lodge indirect expression Would you care to share the joke? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218456) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 11:35 AM Author: Pale vibrant digit ratio scourge upon the earth NU is the joke. Fish shouldn't have gotten the worst grade in his section in most of his first semester classes if he wanted a job despite his utter TTT of a personality. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:57 PM Author: floppy house Most? Try 1 class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218740) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:23 PM Author: pea-brained cream rigor whorehouse I didn't realize he was only applying to top money jobs. I thought he was slumming it and applying to places beneath him - he certainly made it seem that way.
Well, this makes him all the more deserving of his situation. Eat shit and die, Fish. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 12:57 PM Author: floppy house I applied everywhere. Its just I have only big money job possibilities ahead. So this summer its either big money job or non-paying job. Weird but true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4218738) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:01 PM Author: Charcoal Toaster Senate Hey Fish,
Did you go to NU for money? If so, what schools did you turn down? Would you do it again? |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:49 PM Author: floppy house Yes, though my alternative wasn't ranked higher and also gave money (though considerably less). The alternative was Duke.
I was also on a lot of WLs but when the money was offered I just took it.
Honestly, its hard to say. I'm not picking Duke instead of NU would have saved me here. I should have applied to UChicago, though I probably would have gotten dinged. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 1:21 PM Author: territorial legend native Fish, now that I've read this thread in greater detail, I have the following things to say.
If you *never* mention yourself once in the interview, you'll probably do better. Ask them about the interviewers, what they do in a day, what decisions they wish they'd made differently, what they think about and so forth.
You're *not* trying to sell yourself in the interview. They have your resume and your grades, and they know that you're adequate. You're trying to make them feel good about being around you. So talk about your interviewer, and not yourself. Ask what they do when they're not at work, and if people in the department hang out, and what the atmosphere is like.
Admittedly, most people can mention themselves more than once in an interview, but if you're talking about yourself to sell yourself, and you're coming off as arrogant, drastic measures may be called for.
One other question: when people ask you "who else have you talked to today," do you remember? |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:54 PM Author: floppy house "One other question: when people ask you "who else have you talked to today," do you remember?"
No one has ever asked this.
But I see your point, I'll focus more on the interviewer.
Did you interview mainly in NY or somewhere else? |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 3:59 PM Author: territorial legend native I only did one interview in NY. I concentrated in Chicago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4219895) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 4:16 PM Author: passionate violent blood rage pervert Have you had any callbacks in NYC yet? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4219967) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 5:29 PM Author: floppy house No. They've all been in secondary markets - which has me a bit concerned. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4220321) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 8:38 PM Author: chartreuse mexican school Is it possible that a failure to demonstrate sufficient local contacts sunk your applications? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4221587) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:17 PM Author: floppy house For 2 yes, but not for the last one.
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:01 PM Author: passionate violent blood rage pervert NYC has a much higher ratio of offers to callbacks than other markets (at least from my limited experience). You should get one there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4221774) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 10:18 PM Author: floppy house That was my understanding as well and that's also my hope. The only problem is that the firms I'm interviewing with are also significantly better than anywhere I've been before. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4222332) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 4:33 PM Author: Jade locus Question about the "who else have you talked to" bit:
Do you mean that self-absorption would lead to a response in the negative, or that answering no to this question would have adversely impacted his chances?
Edit: Because if it's the latter, I don't think it would be a problem. Everyone knows callbacks are hectic and tend to run together. I've never been able to give an adequate answer to that question, and no one has cared. |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 4:38 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone state voyeur I always just try to remember the name of the one or two bigshot partners and then just weasel my way through the rest. Usually this is basically a rhetorical question as the attorney looks at your schedule, so having one or two names handy is more than good enough in my experience. I'm really bad with names though, so I'm pretty experienced at ad-libbing my way out of situations where I can't remember someone's name. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4220063) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 6:54 PM Author: supple rough-skinned university Always know the name of the person you're with at the time. Reasoning...someone asks you whom you've met with. You say argh, I'm terrible with names. Person asks, what's my name? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=292011&forum_id=2#4220791) |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: scarlet brunch "when people ask you "who else have you talked to today," do you remember?"
This question killed me once. :( |
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Date: November 5th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: nighttime dashing kitty public bath I hate this question too. I had a lot of trouble with it but woul dalways managed to pull one first or last name out or I'd remember the on-campus interviewer, that was enough. At the callback if you have the list of names I just pull it out and look at it (because you wouldn't really memorize the people you had coming up later int he day)
Also sucks if they ask about other firms you have offers at, and who you interviewed with there if they know people at that firm. |