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Why the fuck do Christians act so persecuted all the time?
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:42 PM Author: Vigorous brass locus useless brakes This "war on Christmas" crap is getting out of hand. What the hell is your problem?
You got your prez.
You got your war in Iraq.
What else could you possibly want from the rest of us? |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:44 PM Author: buff adventurous resort You are clearly part of the "secular-progressive left." Why do you like euthanasia so much? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441088) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:33 PM Author: Chrome gay wizard because humanity sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441625) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:47 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life War on Christmas?
My christian-fundie-hypocrite aunt tried to get me all outraged once about how people were crossing out Jesus when they wrote X-mas, and I explained to her that X is the greek letter "chi" and it is an orthodox symbol for Christ and it is in no way disrespecful. She didn't believe me. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:48 PM Author: buff adventurous resort http://mediamatters.org/items/200511210003 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441127) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:49 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life Christ.. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441144) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:47 PM Author: Underhanded locale wagecucks I think you meant "x". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441836) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:51 PM Author: pea-brained costumed garrison Uh oh, they're onto us.
Regardless of whether these religious fairytales are true, religion is a tool whose primary purpose is and has been to control the behavior of the masses.
Not to sound like a total sociopath, but I think in some ways the bottom 3/4 of people wants certainty in their lives, and the more unbelievable it is, the better. As long as you tell them what they want to hear, it's fine. It doesn't even have to match up with the facts. The religious right figured this out. You just have to realize that in a democracy you are battling for the minds of idiots and people who don't enjoy the prospect of facing reality. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:06 PM Author: odious casino yeah that's pretty much it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442124) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:47 PM Author: sapphire contagious partner they do this every year? i thought this was a one time thing last year (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441843) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:51 PM Author: lemon cerebral menage corn cake they have learned the benefits of victimhood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441164) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:54 PM Author: Emerald Vivacious Potus because they're hanging upsidedown from CROSSES all the damn time, that's why. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441200) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:55 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I think that their complaints are unjustified in many cases, but I can see where they come from. Despite being a large group with a lo tof political power, they don't have much influence on the media or popular culture or the entertainment industry, and are probably frustrated that their views are rarely reflected there.
And I think - like a lot of people of all kinds of political viewpoints - they don't think much about differences in the public and private spheres. If someone tells them to take their Nativity Scene off the courthouse steps or to stop classroom prayers, I think it comes across as "Religion is bad" rather than "This is good, but this isn't the right place for it." |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 3:58 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life Your second point is a good one, and one that is irritatingly persistent in american culture -- namely that mentioning something is equivalent to endorsing it, and that refusing to endore something is the same thing as wanting to ban it. See also: evolution, abortion, gay marriage, pre-emptive war, school prayer, etc., etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441239) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:09 PM Author: rebellious dun hominid whose side are you on, anyway? you're either for us or against us. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441345) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:10 PM Author: Histrionic base (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441349) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:03 PM Author: boyish business firm I actually sympathize with the fundies on the Christmas issue. This is an overwhelmingly Christian nation (including both practicing Christians and non-practicing but who come from clearly Christian heritage), and this whole "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" pisses me off. The whole fucking point of the end of December being a holiday season is because of Christmas, not because of New YEars or Hanukka(which isn't a very important holiday to Jews anyway).
It's like the Jews pissed at the introduction of the Hanukka bush-leave my holiday alone and I'll leave yours alone.
To try to completely secularize Christmas by taking away every reference to Christmas or nativity scenes or christmas carols is offensive. I'm not too upset about the happy holiday bit, but I still find it offensive and annoying. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:08 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life You are entirely free to put plastic reindeer on your lawn and huge MERRY CHRISTMAS lights on your roof. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441334) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:17 PM Author: boyish business firm True.
But I'm annoyed that the stores are willing to take advantage of my dollars at Christmas time without acknowledging why I'm spending those dollars in the first place.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:17 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life So...shop elsewhere. Not hard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441440) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:19 PM Author: boyish business firm Gets harder every year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441460) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:22 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life http://www.bronners.com/
hth |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:13 PM Author: odious casino Wait, the stores are "taking advantage of" your dollars? Only go to the store and make a transaction if you are better off. If you think you are being taken advantage of, go somewhere else. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442215) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:08 PM Author: hyperactive gay office factory reset button "To try to completely secularize Christmas by taking away every reference to Christmas or nativity scenes or christmas carols is offensive"
How, in any way, does this secularize Christmas? This is secularizing December, if anything. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:14 PM Author: boyish business firm By taking away every reference to Christmas (as opposed to the Happy Holidays) you are ignoring that the holiday has a religious origin. Secularizing the holiday season essentially destroys the purpose of celebrating Christmas. We might as well just pick a day at random and say that'll be the time when we have lots of parties and encourage kids to be greedy.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:17 PM Author: Histrionic base Christmas has been secularized long before this.
It has been a way retailers have gotten customers to spend gobs of money for years. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:19 PM Author: boyish business firm True, Christmas has been overly secularized-December's become a month where the American Christian population spends tends of billions on buying crappy gifts. It wouldn't hurt for the store owners to play along with the pretentions and actually acknowledge that the reason the money is being spent is because of "Christmas." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441458) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:21 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Why? If people want to celebrate Christmas in a secular way, that's their business - I'm not sure why the stores should be responsible for reminding them of the true meaning if there's not a market for that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441485) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:26 PM Author: boyish business firm It's not a question of a lack of a market. In many ways, there's no choice. Malls puts up signs saying happy holidays even though 90% of the customers are shopping for Christmas gifts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441552) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:28 PM Author: buff adventurous resort So...?
If this is honestly getting your goat, just shop at xtian bookstores, or whoever is out front promoting the "xtian xmas." |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:28 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Perhaps they do so because they want to be more welcoming to the other 10% who are not shopping for Christmas gifts, and to people who are shopping for Christmas but who don't enjoy seeing religious images in stores. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441579) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:30 PM Author: boyish business firm But it's not necessarily the holiday for the other 10% of the population? It's not exclusion as being welcoming to the 90% of the shoppers who'll be celebrating Christmas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441596) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:32 PM Author: buff adventurous resort "But it's not necessarily the holiday for the other 10% of the population? "
How do you mean? |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:41 PM Author: boyish business firm For some people (Muslims) December is not a holiday. Bhuddists and Hindus don't celebrate holidays at this time of the year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441709) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:42 PM Author: buff adventurous resort Many take part in xmas celebrations, though. Xmas isn't necessarily a religious thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441732) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:42 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Not all holidays need to be religious. There is an official, secular "holiday" on Christmas in the sense that most people don't have to work on that day. That's enough to make a lot of other days "holidays." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441735) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:44 PM Author: boyish business firm The reason December 25th is a day off is because of Christmas. IF there was no Christmas, we wouldn't have the 25th off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441767) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:47 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann But it's an official government holiday, and all the Buddhists have a day off then too. So it's a holiday to them, just a non-religious one.
If you don't want anyone else having a holiday on your religious day, lobby to have it taken off the list of official holidays and take personal days when you want to celebrate it. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:51 PM Author: boyish business firm A day off is not a holiday for most people, it is a vacation.
I enjoyed days off in my non-Christian country because most people were celebrating their holiday. I didn't call it "my" holiday.
And, the whole reason the gov't recognizes December 25th as a day off is because of the Christmas holiday. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:56 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann A day off that occurs on a specific date is a holiday to many people. That's just how it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441973) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:06 PM Author: boyish business firm Yes. So Christmas is a holiday as opposed to a vacation... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442116) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:08 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Yes, and it's that even for many people who don't give a shit about Christ being born on that day. If you give people an officially sanctioned day of rest, they're going to make something out of it, even if they don't care about the underlying meaning.
If we had non-Christian religious holidays off, I suspect you'd start to see Christians treating them like holidays too. Again, look what happened to Memorial Day and Labor Day. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:14 PM Author: boyish business firm Memorial Day and Labor day are still celebrated as Memorial Day and Labor day. I've been to Memorial Day sales, not Happy Holiday sales, on May 31st. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442237) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:21 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann They're still called by those names, but people have taken the days and done totally different things with them than were intended. Who celebrates unions and such on Labor Day? How many people go to military cemetaries on Veterans Day? People were given time off, and made them into barbecue and trip to the beach days. People given time off on Christmas do the same. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442313) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:26 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew The major difference, you must admit, is that no one has attempted to ignore "Memorial" or "Labor" when promoting sales or other schtick. There's been nothing comparable to replacing Merry Christmas with Happy Holidays. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442384) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:30 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann True, though "three day weekend" is used fairly often to describe those days.
I guess my broader point is that you don't really have a property interest in your holidays. There are a lot of things being celebrated at that time of year besides the birth of Christ, and I don't think it's people's right to hear a specific form of address rather than a more generalized one. If you don't want to patronize businesses or hang out with people who do so, that's your choice, but it's not really an outrage. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:38 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew You could also be overstating what other occasions are being celebrated at that time of the year. Jews have Chanauka, but it is hardly a major holiday and most certainly don't go to the extremes of Christmas shopping and parties. Muslims celebrate Ramada at the very end of December, but it is not by any means a materialistic holiday. The people going to the mall and buying a shitload of crap are celebrating, for the most part, Christmas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442545) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:49 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann The occasions themselves are often fairly minor holidays (with perhaps the exception of New Year's), and Christmas has corrupted them to a degree. But some reasonable portion of the US is celebrating them, so people generalize sometimes.
The "Christmas shoppers" are for the most part celebrating Christmas. But other people shop too, and I think stores worry about alienating them. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:57 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew True. But how would Merry Christmas be alienating to the non Christmas shoppers as opposed to Happy Holidays, especially if Christmas is, as people have pointed out, already so secularized and commercialized. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442763) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 6:03 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I can see how people not shopping for Christmas might be irritated by having other people's symbols in their faces for weeks at a time, especially if their own traditions don't get that kind of attention. Merry Christmas may or may not be alienating - I don't think time has shown the experiment this year to be successful. Other things probably are alienating - more overt symbols like nativity scenes and references to Jesus and Mary probably would make at least some shoppers uncomfortable (too much of that would probably make me go to the next store in the mall). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442847) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:28 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what people do on those days. You have shown that on both memorial day and christmas, some people don't celebrate the original reason for the holiday. But then why has "merry christmas" been replaced with "happy holidays" when the same hasn't happened with other holidays? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442413) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:36 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann It hasn't exactly been replaced. Some people are using a more general greeting - one that extends to people who are celebrating a secular holiday and those who aren't celebrating one at all. It's just language adopting to fit current customs.
(It's not as if Merry Christmas is an essential part of the celebration in any case, it's only been in use for a few hundred years. It probably displaced another form of greeting.) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:39 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew A few hundred years of tradition is nothing to be laughed at.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:39 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit Honestly, that is nice spin but doesn't hold up. Look in the ads, go to the stores, "Merry Christmas" has been replaced. Which maybe is just fine, but at least be honest and admit it. Changing to a more general greeting is replacing "merry christmas," no matter how you dice it.
you can't really call it a custom in this context if it only reflects the viewpoint of a small minority of the population. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:50 PM Author: buff adventurous resort So? This is 2005, not 1875, or whenever the holiday was enacted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441892) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:32 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann They have no obligation to do so. Businesses are free to cater to tiny niche groups if they wish, or to try to make their messages as broad as possible so that no one is left out. If they've chosen the wrong strategy, people will be turned off and they'll go out of business. No need to be upset about it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441615) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:50 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann In any case, more to the point: the people who don't celebrate the holiday still have to shop in the month and a half before Christmas. Stores have an interest in balancing their wishes with those of the Christmas shoppers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441889) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:31 PM Author: buff adventurous resort It's also a matter of marketing - "Merry Christmas" signs look horribly out of place by December 26, or before Thanksgiving, even though many stores have post-xmas sales that extend into the first couple weeks of January. "Happy Holidays" or "Winter's Greetings," etc. reduces their menu costs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441606) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:40 PM Author: boyish business firm Christmas lasts until January 6th, the day of Ephiphany, or the day when the Wise Men arrived at the manger.
The entire 12 days between the 25th and Epiphany is Christmas. There's a song called the 12 Days of Christmas, and in other countries most of the Christmas parties and celebrations are during this time period. London stores have their Christmas sales during this time period.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:41 PM Author: buff adventurous resort "Christmas lasts until January 6th, the day of Ephiphany, or the day when the Wise Men arrived at the manger."
Wrong. Christmas as a federal and marketing holiday is confined to December 25. This is America, not London. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:42 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life That's Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican shit that no one in the US knows or cares about. 85% of all days are some sort of holiday in the Catholic church. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441725) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:20 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I'd agree that they're not really celebrating the same holiday you are, but why should they be banned from celebrating? Ignore what they're doing, celebrate your own holiday, and your purpose won't be harmed at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441469) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:21 PM Author: hyperactive gay office factory reset button "By taking away every reference to Christmas (as opposed to the Happy Holidays) you are ignoring that the holiday has a religious origin." No, it's including the other religions at this time of year that also have holidays. By only saying "Merry Christmas" at Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart is explicity excluding these religions. Even if Wal-Mart ignored any holiday whatsoever, this would not be persecuting or ignoring Christmas, as Wal-Mart is not a Christian church nor is Wal-Mart preventing you from worshipping Christmas. "Secularizing the holiday season essentially destroys the purpose of celebrating Christmas. We might as well just pick a day at random and say that'll be the time when we have lots of parties and encourage kids to be greedy. " They're not really even secularizing Christmas, as saying "Happy Holidays" is wishing everyone who is celebrating a RELIGIOUS holiday to have a good time. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:29 PM Author: boyish business firm Walmart can put up signs saying "Happy Hannukka" or Happy whatever that African holiday's called alongside the Christmas signs. No one's going to bat an eye.
I've lived in countries where the heritage and the vast majority of the population was of a different religion, and hell, was I offended at the relative scarcity of Christmas signs and whatnot in December? Hell no.
This is still an overwhelmingly Christian country. Many of these people may not go to church, but the heritage of 90% of this country's population is still Christian. To pretend this is sort of not the case while still taking advantage of the Christmas holiday is offensive. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:34 PM Author: buff adventurous resort "To pretend this is sort of not the case while still taking advantage of the Christmas holiday is offensive. "
Who is taking advantage of what? The free market it out to make money, not make some kind of social statement. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:36 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Stores don't take advantage of the Christmas holiday. Consumers shop there freely. Stores will adjust their marketing to strike the right balance between consumers who are very interested in religious Christmas symbols, those who prefer non-religious Christmas symbols, and those who don't care about Christmas at all. If they get it wrong, they'll lose business and either fail or change their strategies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441653) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:42 PM Author: boyish business firm Give me an example of a non-religious Christmas symbol.
Walgreen's already apologized for not calling their trees "Holiday Trees" and will return to calling them Christmas trees next year. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:46 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann evergreen trees, reindeer, elves, santa portrayed as a fat man in a red suit rather than a european saint, snowflakes, etc.
If they lost shoppers because people wanted to see Christmas trees instead of Holiday trees, then they made the right decision. But there's no need to get mad about it. For the most part, stores are just providing decorations they think will lead to the most profit. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:54 PM Author: boyish business firm You got me on the non-religious holiday symbols.
But the decorations ARENT ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE DECORATIONS when the stores were still using "Merry Christmas."
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:00 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann They aren't at the moment, because stores are balancing the desires of consumers. Some consumers would probably wish to see a nativity scene, or pictures of mangers instead. Some probably wish they didn't have to see any special decorations. Stores settle on the more secular decorations because they satisfy the Christmas celebrators without scaring away those who like non-religious displays.
The wording has the same distribution - you can go from an extremely religious message to the subtler Merry Christmas to the more secular Happy Holidays to ignoring the holiday altogether. Consumers are going to be distributed among those groups, and the stores are responsible for balancing needs in accordance to their numbers and the strength of their preferences. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:14 PM Author: boyish business firm I do agree with you that stores are going to accommodate the needs of as many shoppers as possible. However, we have a circumstance where having a nativity scene isn't going to be offensive to 80% of the shoppers in the store. To eliminate the nativity scene so not to offend the other 20% (and frankly, who's offended enough at a nativity scene to not shop at a standard department store) is a slap in the face to many of the 80% of the shoppers. It is still accommodating the wishes of a few at the expense of the many.
A store has every right to do what it wants, I'm a conservative and a free market economist, but it still doesn't mean I can't disagree with the storeowner. I certainly do NOT support a federally mandated law requiring nativity scenes. And you're right, Christmas has been commercialized for a very long time, but there was a honesty in that stores of the past acknowledged the purpose of the holiday and its origins, and a hypocrisy in today's stores in willing to take advantage of the holiday without acknowledging that its existence is because of Christmas.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:16 PM Author: buff adventurous resort I don't see the "hypocrisy." I live on a mountain that was created by tectonic subduction. Tectonic subduction is the only reason my hillside views exist. And yet, I don't care. I don't sacrifice puppies to the earthquake God as a form of thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442262) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:19 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann "I do agree with you that stores are going to accommodate the needs of as many shoppers as possible."
That's not what I'm asserting. I'm claiming they're going to seek out the most profitable outcome. That doesn't always mean accomodating as many people as possible. If some shoppers care more or have more money to spend, their preferences will be more important.
"To eliminate the nativity scene so not to offend the other 20% (and frankly, who's offended enough at a nativity scene to not shop at a standard department store) is a slap in the face to many of the 80% of the shoppers."
It's not the store's business to make everyone happy, it's its business to make as much money as possible. If the 80% aren't so offended that they'd stop shopping if the nativity scene was removed, but the 20% wouldn't enter a store with such a display, the 20% will have more influence. If the 20% is richer or more interested in a certain type of item than the 80%, they'll again have more influence. It's a market, not an election where everyone has an equal say.
"It is still accommodating the wishes of a few at the expense of the many."
That can be a perfectly valid marketing strategy. Luxury items - items that satisfy the wishes of the few while making the many unhappy they can't affod them - can be very profitable. So can running a niche shop, like a Christian bookstore. Most people don't read Christian books, but if the few are loyal and profitable customers, accomodating them instead of the many can be a good business.
"but it still doesn't mean I can't disagree with the storeowner"
I think you're incorrectly viewing this as an ideological battle. It's not. It's just the market trying to deal with people's different preferences. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:34 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew You guys both overstate your case. I actually see very little market preference for a totally secular happy holidays in the place of merry christmas, which leads me to suspect that many of the decisions are made by a group of people who are exposed to a more diverse element than the typical churchgoing American. Look at where my parents live-an affluent east coast suburb. A good chuck of the residents are Jews. Many of my father's peers at the hospital are JEwish. Easily a third of my classmates were Jewish. If you live in New York or California or a few other major metro area where much of this country's movers and shakers live, it's easy to live in an environment with a substantial Jewish and other non=Christian population, and that certainly affects how you perceive the holiday season.
Consequenly, I say happy holidays more often than not because my crowd includes a lot of Jews and a few muslims as well. But Burgh's right, the vast majority of Americans don't live in that kind of environment, and I agree that what he called the powers that be are making decisions based on what the market is like in New York, not in bumblefuck, Oklahoma or ramdonville Suburbia, Ohio. I can observe how the denizens of such place could feel suddenly ignored and rejected even though they constitute a substantial majority of this country's population. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:42 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I don't actually think there's a strong market preference for a totally secular happy holidays (especially since merry christmas is the norm). My guess would be that the market inclues a small number of people with a very strong preference for one or the other, and a bunch of people who kind of like Merry Christmas but aren't willing to stop shopping at stores that don't use it.
I don't think that it's necessary that the market be perfectly aware of the preferences of consumers from personal experience. If people who felt ignored and rejected acted on the impulse and avoided such retailers, things would change very quickly. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:48 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit "I don't think that it's necessary that the market be perfectly aware of the preferences of consumers from personal experience. If people who felt ignored and rejected acted on the impulse and avoided such retailers, things would change very quickly."
I think there is a lot to this statement. First, the replacement probably is partly a result of the market not being perfectly aware of consumer preferences. Second, I think most Christians, while dissapointed, aren't outraged over it, and that's why you don't see some sort of boycott. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:53 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I'd agree that the replacement was probably a mistake. As others have stated, a lot of retailers have changed their policies as a result.
Strength of preferences does tend to screw the Christians over, in this and many other respects. If they don't care enough to stop buying if they don't get what they want, and other groups do, their preferences aren't going to be reflected in proportion to their numbers. But complaining about being persecuted doesn't really do much unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:56 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit I completely agree. As you point out, it's very true that many Christians will complain but won't back it up with action. Maybe because, like we have said, it's not that really big of a deal and so it's only worth a few groans, hisses, boos. But, then of course, you do look like a bunch of whiners. I don't quite fit into this group. i really don't complain, but i wish stores would do a better job a striking a balance of tolerance and political correctness. Maybe that's just too much to ask. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442752) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:10 PM Author: Histrionic base I really dislike you not only as a poster, but a human being. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441359) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:15 PM Author: boyish business firm *rolling eyes*
Like I care, dude. You're only pissed because I was the one who found your Carneige Mellon picture and actually called you a dumb shit for dropping out of college. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:16 PM Author: Histrionic base No, that's really not it.
If you only knew the half of it. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:16 PM Author: hyperactive gay office factory reset button You dropped out of college? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441423) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:17 PM Author: Histrionic base Fuck off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441434) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:17 PM Author: boyish business firm He flunked out, so he says. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441435) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:18 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann But you're not leaving their holiday alone, if non-Christian secular people are included in the definition of "their". You're telling them that they can either celebrate Christmas in your way, or they should refrain from celebrating anything at all during that time period.
There basiclaly are two Christmases - a secular holiday and a religious one. It's not unique to Christmas either - Thanksgiving wasn't originally about turkey, Memorial Day isn't supposed to be about going on short vacations, etc. It's something that happens when people put their holidays out there in public - sometimes other people take them and celebrate them in their own way. There's nothing really wrong with that, and the Christians did it too - they placed their holiday on top of a pagan one that occurred at the same time of year.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:24 PM Author: boyish business firm I'm not opposed to other people celebrating Christmas, of course not. I've been to my share of Hanukka parties in the past, and was quite adept at cheating at the dreidl at one time. But I don't go to these parties saying "happy holidays," here's my "holiday gift." I say Happy fucking Hannukkah and gimme the gold chocolate coins. I don't care if atheists are receiving christmas cards with Jesus in the manger on them-the whole point the atheist is receiving the card is because of Christmas, so just acknowledge the fact that it's Christmas.
If it's secular, what's the point of calling it a holiday, anyway? Why not just say "happy vacation!"
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:27 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I'm suggesting that there's a second holiday that you're not recognizing - a non-religious Christmas that has to do with giving gifts, Santa, being cheery, seeing one's family, etc. This holiday borrows some traditions from the religious Christmas and has some of its own as well.
If you're uncomfortable with the borrowing aspect of it, I think you need to look at your own religion a little more closely - much of your Easter and Christmas imagry was taken from pagan religions. Should the pagans be able to step in now and inform you that you really shouldn't be putting holidays celebrating your god on top of their solstices, or using fertility symbols at Easter, or evergreen trees at Christmas? |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:35 PM Author: boyish business firm I am well aware where many of Christianity's traditions are grounded, and of secularists celebrating Christmas. Holidays do evolve over time, there's no doubt about that. But Christmas is still celebrated by the bulk of this country's population as a Christian holiday, and to accommodate the needs of a relatively small group of people at the expense of the larger majority is not fair.
Keep in mind that most people in this country do not 1) live in New York City, and 2) are not Jewish or Muslim, or 3) atheist, 4) are likely to be regular church goers.
Why should the sensibilities of a few have a disproportionate influence?
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:40 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann It's not a matter of being fair. Private businesses will do what is profitable. If Christian buyers demanded to see nativity scenes in stores and had enough buying power to back up that preference, you'd see more religious displays in businesses. My guess would be that a lot of your fellow Christians don't care about the issue strongly enough to avoid stores that don't have religious displays - if they did, stores would cater to them more.
I think you're focusing too much on religious labels here. Ask people how they celebrate Christmas, and see how many of the emphasize the religious story, going to church, and Christian values. Compare them to the people whose Christmas is mostly Santa and visiting grandparents. The first group is still large, but it's not a crushing majority. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:49 PM Author: boyish business firm I don't avoid stores that don't have religious displays. I'd actually be pissed if every public place had a nativity scene because that would be commercializing the spiritual side of the holiday, even though I am not a spiritual person.
But I do sympathize with people when they say they have no choice if all the malls in the town have banned overt recognition that Christmas is a Christian holiday. That's the case in many places, so avoiding shopping there is defeatist. I still need to get the damn gift, and frankly you need to keep in mind that the shift from Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays is a relatively recent one. There hasn't been time for the consumer/market to fully stake their grounds.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:54 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann "I don't avoid stores that don't have religious displays."
That's why stores are drifting away from the religious meaning, because people with your preferences don't vote with their wallets. If more secular people and people who are of other religions care enough to stop shopping if there are religious symbols, their preferences are going to carry more weight than their numbers would suggest.
"But I do sympathize with people when they say they have no choice if all the malls in the town have banned overt recognition that Christmas is a Christian holiday."
That's nonsense. There are Christian stores. There are websites with Christian displays. If Christians only shopped at such places one year, there'd be a ton more the next year.
"frankly you need to keep in mind that the shift from Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays is a relatively recent one. There hasn't been time for the consumer/market to fully stake their grounds."
Christmas has been commercialized and secularized for my entire lifetime, and I suspect for much of the lifetime of my parents. People's purchasing preferences shift pretty quickly, and there's been a good amount of time to adjust. I think that a lot of Christmas shoppers either are reasonably secular themselves, or are making their purchases based on other grounds. That's their business.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:04 PM Author: boyish business firm You've argued two things here. 1) Christmas is essentially a very secular holiday for many people. 2) Stores are looking to accomodate the wishes of secularists.
So what's the big deal with having "merry Christmas" as opposed to "Happy Holidays." Given that most of the secularists still say Christmas, use the words Christmas, associate with Christmas symbols, both secular and religious, then there can't possibly be something offensive about saying "Merry Christmas" or having "Christmas Trees" as opposed to Happy Holidays or "Holiday Trees."
There wasn't a customer demand for "Happy Holidays" to begin with. It just crept up and quietly replaced Merry Christmas. I'm not going to stop shopping at a store because, hey, "happy holidays" still refers to a holiday, especially if it's with red and green trims. Most people aren't. But it doesn't hide the fact that the decision-makers and powers that be (who, on a personal level, operate in a society that has far more non-Christians than for the typical American, namely Jews) overstated the need to accommodate non-Christians, and doing so, managed to ignore a large sector of the American public.
And as I pointed out, some major stores have already shifted back to using Merry Christmas. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:12 PM Author: buff adventurous resort If it hurts you that much, go tell the manager you'd rather see "Merry Fucking Xmas" than "Happy Fucking Holidays." This is how free markets operate - by demand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442203) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:14 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann I'm not personally offended by "Merry Christmas" so I'm just guessing, but I'd imagine that certain populations who don't celebrate Christmas at all get tired of having it shoved in their faces. If these people cared enough to avoid stores for the month of December, stores might try to accomodate them by offering a less blatant celebration of the holiday.
I'm guessing there is one, or at least a demand for a softened Christmas display. It costs money to change signs, and businesses are generally pretty rational in pursuing profitable outcomes. They almost certainly did it because they felt that a certain group of customers would prefer a softening of the Christmas message. And if they turn out to be wrong, the pendulum will swing back the other way and stores will instead say "Merry Christmas". It's just the market seeking its equilibrium, it's nothing to get mad about. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:00 PM Author: Histrionic base Basically, Rowan handed your ass to you on a "Christmas" platter, bitch.
Now kindly slip into the background again. It's a natural state for you. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:40 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life You overestimate the number of people who want to see religious shit in the public sphere and who even notice/care when a store says Happy Holidays as opposed to Merry Christmas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441703) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:20 PM Author: boyish business firm http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442299) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:23 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann Christians =/= people who care enough about "Happy Holidays" to stop shopping at a store that uses the phrase (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442345) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:42 PM Author: boyish business firm If 80% of the country's population identifies themselves as Christian, that is a substantial, very substantial, majority.
I'm not so offended to stop shopping at stores but I still perceive it as a sign of disrespect that the store owners are taking advantage of my spending lots of cash as well as almost all the Christmas symbolism and traditions without acknowledging that it is a Christmas holiday. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:55 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann That's why you're not getting what you want from stores. Other groups are willing to leave the store if they're not happy with the symbolism, and you're not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442740) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:45 PM Author: Electric high-end shrine jew In most other countries where 80% of the population is of one religion, you rarely get the same degree of accommodation to the other 20%.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:59 PM Author: cruel-hearted lay boltzmann In many of those countries, the 80% may be either wealthier or more passionate about its preferences than the 80% here. Additionally, governments chosen on a 1 person 1 vote basis may intervene more in the markets of some countries than they do in ours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442790) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:24 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life Where in that article does it say that those people want to see religious paraphernalia in the public sphere? Or are you assuming that anyone who identifies as Christian would want to? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442350) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:48 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit It doesn't, but to be fair, your original assertion has no support either. It would be helpful to find some polls on this particular issue. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442669) |
Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:06 PM Author: hyperactive gay office factory reset button And O'Reilly's argument that this hurts Jews is the absolute best.
"to get Christianity and spirituality and Judaism out of the public square. " |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:12 PM Author: Painfully honest twinkling uncleanness He's so stupid it makes my head hurt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441377) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:23 PM Author: Big market faggotry (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441517) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:26 PM Author: buff adventurous resort This is Fox's cynical attempt to help that fag John Gibson sell books, and for O'Reilly to sell his shitty xmas merchandise. Fox's "news" coverage is incestuous - John Gibson has been on several other Fox programs aside from his own, pumping his book. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441549) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:31 PM Author: violent shitlib personally, I don't give a fuck what people do.
Crucify a Jesus lookalike in Times Square, I don't give a flying goddamn fuck. |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:33 PM Author: orange boiling water forum I want to point out how many good points Rowan made in this thread. She has helped reinvigorate my responses to whiny religious people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441623) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:47 PM Author: odious casino Yeah, good posts. I liked the ones about how retailers are just trying to strike the balance between religious and secular advertising that will sell the most shit. To impute some sort of statement on religion to their choice of symbols is a misunderstanding of what they are as a corporation and what they're trying to do.
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:35 PM Author: orchid useless pistol Hey Christian wackjobs, the African-American community called, they want their victimization schtick back. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441644) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:38 PM Author: chestnut kitchen love of her life It is a bit odd to see all of the liberals (myself included) defending free market economics. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4441682) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 6:02 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit Doesn't the idea of free markets include the majority complaining that companies don't cater them enough? It's not the Christians that are calling for government intervention here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442827) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 4:58 PM Author: sapphire contagious partner Rowan you cleaned up in this thread. I wish i had matched you up with someone hotter. Happy Holidays Everyone! I'm going home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442004) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:20 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit at least try to be somewhat objective if you are going to chime in as in irrelevant third party. Rowan's points were well articluated, but so were Edinburgh's and he easily held is own. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442311) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:49 PM Author: Translucent Sanctuary Roommate i agree with them. let people do what they want. if they want a christmas tree, let them have one. would we prevent a store or town from having a gay flag or pic of M.L.K. to show support for gays and blacks? this is the same thing. people need to chill the fuck out. freedom of expression baby. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442673) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2005 5:51 PM Author: charismatic orchestra pit I agree. If you want to be tolerated, it seems that you would be in a better position to ask for it if you give it out yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=310382&forum_id=2#4442702) |