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someone summarize the whole PENSIVE thing please
Poast new message in this thread
Date: December 6th, 2005 6:27 PM Author: cracking office brethren (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4480481) |
Date: December 6th, 2005 6:45 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Pensive and Media Kid are both Mike Church, a recent Carleton grad and current Wisconsin grad student who started posting on the law board after the college board got tired of him.
He recently had a huge-ass mental breakdown after an all-night posting spree making fun of Joe from Caltech, the preferred target for his jealousy. You may know pensive as the guy who views human relationships as equations, believes that if a girl doesn't like him she's "unprestigious" (the corollary to this, of course, is that "nearly all women are unprestigious"!) and apparently has something called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He believes his invention of the game called "Ambition" to be a significant achievement--on par with founding a successful business--and expends a lot of energy trolling for it on the internet, trying to plant references to it in Wikipedia, etc., without too much luck. (Refusing to believe that the game is without merit, he attributes this to un-named forces out there in cyberspace conspiring against him, making repeated reference to a bunch of people he pissed off at Carleton whom he believes are behind this.)
He promised to leave and seek mental help after his all-night ragefest (which he professed not to remember at all the next day), and he actually did briefly stop posting--as pensive, at least. Remarkably, the posting rate for "Media Kid" skyrocketed right about this time, with MK's number one topic being, of course, how misunderstood and maligned "pensive" really is.
After a few days of being subjected to this, a fed-up Carleton alum on the board who knew Mike in person from school started posting excerpts from Mike's online "User File," a Carleton web board where he often argued with people at his school, the main topics being things like his card game, why he can't get a date, and how most women are stupid compared to him. Anyway, he did this in the form of a very funny Onion column by "taking questions" and then answering them with excerpts from Mike's writing.
A few days ago Mike abandoned all pretense and started making the occasional post as pensive again. That's more or less where we stand now.
I hope I've been able to bring you up to date! |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 6:47 PM Author: Startling lodge That was surprisingly extensive, given how riddled it was with inaccuracies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4480613) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 7:51 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Subject: Hi, pensive. How about I annotate it for eveyone out there, OK? In this post, I backup EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING I SAID, and you stop making stuff up. Thanks.
Pensive and Media Kid are both Mike Church, a recent Carleton grad and current Wisconsin grad student who started posting on the law board after the college board got tired of him, outed him--he initially denied it-- http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=163098&forum_id=1#2528449 (and pwned him repeatedly). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=181066&forum_id=1#2774252 and below are pretty entertaining, especially GTO.)
Also, he believes he's an "objective 8.0"--and will not be told otherwise!--despite looking like this: http://www.math.wisc.edu/~apache/gallery/foto/Church.jpg see: http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=304598&forum_id=2#4371777
He recently had a huge-ass mental breakdown http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=305712&forum_id=2#4379625 after an all-night posting spree making fun of Joe from Caltech, the preferred target for his jealousy, on a thread that didn't mention him to begin with. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=305275&forum_id=2#4374491 You may know pensive as the guy who views human relationships as equations, believes that if a girl doesn't like him she's "unprestigious" and thus insults her to her face http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=273774&forum_id=2#3989162 (the corollary to this, of course, is that "nearly all women are unprestigious"! http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=279655&forum_id=2#4058162 ) and apparently has something called Narcissistic Personality Disorder http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=294161&forum_id=2#4239031 . He believes his invention of the game called "Ambition" to be a significant achievement--on par with founding a successful business http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=291884&forum_id=2#4312448 --and expends a lot of energy trolling for it on the internet, trying to plant references to it in Wikipedia (where he was banned http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=307383&forum_id=2#4401177 ), etc., without too much luck. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=300536&forum_id=2#4315837 (Refusing to believe that the game is without merit, he attributes this to un-named forces out there in cyberspace conspiring against him, making repeated reference to a bunch of people he pissed off at Carleton whom he believes are behind everything that goes wrong in his life. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=163098&forum_id=1#2528962 )
He promised to leave http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=304929&forum_id=2#4369858 and seek mental help http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=305712&forum_id=2#4379818 after his all-night ragefest (which he professed not to remember at all the next day http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=305712&forum_id=2#4379625 ), and he actually did briefly stop posting--as pensive, at least. Remarkably, the posting rate for "Media Kid" skyrocketed right about this time, with MK's number one topic being, of course, how misunderstood and maligned "pensive" really is. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=306925&forum_id=2#4395534 There was also a funny episode where "Media Kid" tried to claim that his absolutely extensive knowledge of Mike Church came from the fact that Mike was writing a book about his life, which "MK" had gotten ahold of. This idea was roundly mocked by all parties on the law board: http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=306966&forum_id=2#4395865 http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=308818&forum_id=2#4429043
After a few days of being subjected to this, and people getting frustrated http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=306628&forum_id=2#4391468 , a fed-up Carleton alum on the board who knew Mike in person from school started posting excerpts from Mike's online "User File," a Carleton web board where he often argued with people at his school, the main topics being things like his card game, why he can't get a date, and how most women are stupid compared to him. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=307799&forum_id=2#4406857 and http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=309285&forum_id=2#4425958 Anyway, he did this in the form of a very funny Onion column by "taking questions" and then answering them with excerpts from Mike's writing. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=307727&forum_id=2#4405637
A few days ago Mike abandoned all pretense and started making the occasional post as pensive or obvious derivatives again (see: this thread, http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=309519&forum_id=2#4429009 and similar). That's more or less where we stand now.
I hope I've been able to bring you up to date! |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:00 PM Author: black theatre becky holy fucking pwnage, batman... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481234) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:04 PM Author: pearl swashbuckling ticket booth hominid one fucking eighty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481266) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:05 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Thank you. It took some effort, but now all of the references are assembled in one place for the board's convenience.
Some of those links are actually pretty entertaining, by the way. I recommend them. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 2:12 PM Author: Chestnut indecent trailer park preventive strike Subject: Now that is an impressive display of OCD (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4487562) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:31 PM Author: supple giraffe Better OCD than NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491379) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:48 PM Author: Chestnut indecent trailer park preventive strike Subject: Very true (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491588) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:06 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum Well, that pretty much ends things. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481290) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:07 PM Author: indigo station community account This is the most impressive thing I have ever seen on this board. 180! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481298) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:10 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Thank you. I honestly do consider it a public service.
(And also, as with the above poster, recommend those links--the first one, for example, is when he was first outted by a College Board poster named Surely Funke--used to be "use a toothbrush"--who went to Carleton and recognized his posting style immediately. Later pwnage, as in Renada Deshada's work on Media Kid = pensive, is also entertaining.)
Google is amazing. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: Exhilarant Tan Clown This is getting a 180 in 25 minutes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481467) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:23 PM Author: Red multi-colored hall ape I'm blown away.
Incredible. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: Charcoal mental disorder Great work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481466) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:41 PM Author: Geriatric provocative step-uncle's house famous landscape painting Awesome. The early college board pensive stuff is the best, probably because there he was immediately ridiculed from day 1 whereas here he lasted a little longer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481572) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater They may have been more perceptive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481601) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:44 PM Author: Geriatric provocative step-uncle's house famous landscape painting They had use a toothbrush. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481614) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:47 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater That's a good point. It's hilarious that he's that much like he is in real life to be noticed immediately by someone from his school once he started posting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481642) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: lake exciting stain fortuitous meteor A+++++++++++++++++ WOULD READ AGAIN (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481594) |
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Date: March 27th, 2006 8:34 AM Author: maniacal pit philosopher-king Nice eBay reference. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5437844) |
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Date: March 27th, 2006 8:51 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater I missed that the first time round. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5437898) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:44 PM Author: Startled library This is so beautiful that I actually shed a tear. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481606) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:22 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Thank you, CD. I'm touched. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4482024) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:33 PM Author: Diverse striped hyena compelling. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4482127) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 2:14 PM Author: carnelian self-centered national wrinkle noice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4487578) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: supple giraffe This is pretty fucking awesome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491363) |
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Date: September 7th, 2008 12:33 AM Author: offensive violent indirect expression tattoo holy fuck, this is one of the greatest pwnings in XOXO history (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#10134222) |
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Date: September 7th, 2008 4:36 PM Author: Alcoholic unhinged kitty plaza A lot of the shit he said actually failed on checking. He was mad because I "outed" the fact that his mother actually wasn't dead, despite his trolls for sympathy. I actually sent his family some of his postings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#10136015) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 6:50 PM Author: pearl swashbuckling ticket booth hominid bravo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4480628) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 2:33 PM Author: smoky indian lodge sad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5236242) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 6:46 PM Author: Startling lodge In five words:
No one cares about it anymore.
I lied. That was six. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 7:52 PM Author: topaz cruise ship hi pensive! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481151) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:01 PM Author: black theatre becky titcr
the man likes nothing more than talking about himself |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:06 PM Author: topaz cruise ship i really do wish he would just go away. the fucker is sick in the head, and i dont like dealing with the mentally ill, online or otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481288) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:16 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space i'd still say he's a decent guy who is put to having to justify himself to such an unrelenting extent that it would alter anyone for the worse. when he's just allowed to participate normally among eveyone else -- and when he doesn't attempt to separate himself - he's quite funny and perceptive. something like inventing a card game is a relatively interesting pasttime. but here it's only portrayed as either idiotic (by everyone but him) or heroic.
he's constantly observing things, and does have a unique, intelligent take. for a math person, he's got an exceptional literary sensibility. it would clearly be better to have his better self around than to drive him away.
still, OTJ has done a remarkable job memorializing this moment in board history. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:19 PM Author: topaz cruise ship he may say something perceptive here and there once in a while, but largely it's just about elite this and elite that, without even any hint of comedy. final verdict: he's seriously fucked-up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481389) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:21 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater This is, of course, the credited response. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481400) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:22 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space check out where he drops the self-promotion. obviously, i see your point. "media kid" is a particularly abysmal creation. but i find the true imbeciles -- e.g., "okay" -- to be a far greater menace. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481410) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:24 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater The true imbeciles (like okay or &# or .... or whatever that fool is calling herself today) mark themselves out pretty easily. Mike actively intends to deceive, and won't even admit to his very, very, very obvious multiple monikers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481423) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space it does sort of run aground when he gets adamant about that. i think he has a stake, as any of us might, in being able to create credible alter-egos. admitting that he is media kid is also an admission that he's not very good at doing that. a lot of people inside the writing world denigrate the ability to render onself, and equate true talent/skill with writing in a different voice. so it could be that he's not merely being obstinate in the face of having been obviously exposed. maybe that's too charitable. but i'd be inclined to give him a free out from all this and allow him to start anew. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481470) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:37 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater I don't think he's ever really admitted that he's bad at anything, or that any significant "flaw" in his profile is actually 100% his fault. There's an excuse for everything--like the way he insists that he would've gotten into any undergrad school in the country (despite the fact that he only applied to Harvard and about 3 other not-too-competitive places, and was rejected at Harvard), or the fact that he goes to the #13 math school (claims that people from LACs can't get any higher than that), etc.
The multiple monikers are just another example of that. His very first post on the board was under another moniker "secret21" and he denied that even after it because abundantly obvious that it was the same as pensive, who was the same as Mike Church of Carleton, etc. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 10:53 PM Author: Passionate stag film "There's an excuse for everything--like the way he insists that he would've gotten into any undergrad school in the country (despite the fact that he only applied to Harvard and about 3 other not-too-competitive places, and was rejected at Harvard), or the fact that he goes to the #13 math school (claims that people from LACs can't get any higher than that), etc."
It's pretty much a wrap that I could have gotten into Harvard undergrad if I hadn't semi-intentionally blown the interview by admitting I didn't want to go. In any case, it doesn't matter because I was a lock on a more prestigious undergrad, Princeton, if I wanted to go. (At the time I didn't.) This was on account of knowing a top professor there who would have green-lighted me.
Students from LACs can get in higher than #13. In fact, I got into Michigan (#8) and, in a very close decision, chose Wisconsin. My reasons for this were complex and it truly was a 51/49, last-minute decision.
It is somewhat harder to get into the top 5-10 math or science departments from an LAC, but it can be done; I wasn't a strong enough applicant to do so, but I know people who would be. Anyone who wants my thoughts or advice on the matter should contact me in private and we'll chat about it. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:02 PM Author: supple giraffe Just shut up. You've been discredited. "Pretty much a wrap"--completely laughable.
The above post pretty much lays you bare to the world, with all the cites right there for everyone to see, from the first lie (called "secret21") to the last (called "Media Kid"). |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:04 PM Author: Passionate stag film Fuck you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483145) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:06 PM Author: supple giraffe You're right, I was imprecise: "Media Kid" is likely not the "last" lie (they seem to be going on and on), but only the most recent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483166) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:09 PM Author: Passionate stag film Why am I Media Kid because I know him offline? By that logic, I would also be useatoothbrush. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483198) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:13 PM Author: supple giraffe Use a toothbrush doesn't make posts repeatedly defending you and saying preposterous things that only you believe, all while writing in exactly the same style you do.
You really don't realize how obvious you are, do you? Back when it was "secret21," she picked you out of the crowd immediately. When you switched to "pensive," GTO and some others knew it had to be you, too. By the time you got to "Potential," "JohnTheJanitor," "Media Kid," and all of your myriad other recent monikers, essentially the entire board knew instantly that they all had to be you. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:05 AM Author: Passionate stag film JohnTheJanitor is DeanRobbins, the retired community account. I have no idea who Potential is, though it is irksome that he uses the account only to talk about me. Media Kid I am not, though I suppose I should just claim to be him, since it would make both of us more prestigious. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483803) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:09 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space this probably isn't a great place to repeatedly claim to have effectively picked carleton college over harvard and princeton. but, whatever; i'd genuinely prefer to hear stuff about ambition or moe of the interestingly offbeat stories that turned up in the question&answer thread.
and credit is due for giving an entirely credible take on the choice of a grad school |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:13 AM Author: Passionate stag film I would still pick Carleton over Harvard.
Carleton is the top LAC in the Midwest; so if we classify schools according to model and location, it's the best in its class. Harvard loses to Princeton, Yale, and if you place MIT in the same "group", MIT too. Harvard, while hard to get into, is the mediocre college that rides on the coattails of a university that is actually great. Without Harvard University's graduate and research programs, HC wouldn't even be top 20 because its name would erode in status to that of a "merely good" New England college. So, with a choice between Harvard and Carleton, I'd pick Carleton and I'd advise anyone wanting to get a top-notch academic education to do the same.
The only thing Harvard has on Carleton is that it's somewhat harder to get into, and honestly I don't care about ~100 points in the average SAT scores (which is really the only significant difference). You can find great students at both.
Carleton vs. Princeton would be much more balanced, and a very difficult choice. At 17, I would've picked Carleton (obviously) but at 22, I honestly don't know. They're both great and intractibly different. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:15 AM Author: lake exciting stain fortuitous meteor 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483904) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:20 AM Author: topaz cruise ship that's like saying a mercedes loses to lamburgini and ferrari, so in a choice between a brand new mercedes and a honda civic, since honda civic is a pretty good car for its class and has no immediate inferiors (let us suppose this for the sake of the argument), you'd pick the honda over the mercades. and that doesnt even address the fact that harvard doesnt lose out to yale or princeton, but i wont even bother arguing with you on that point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483955) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 1:00 AM Author: Passionate stag film I think it's hard to compare a northeastern university to a Midwestern liberal-arts college, and that's why I place them in different classes. Teaching will be better at Carleton, but Harvard will have more research opportunities. It's a toss-up and depends on the type of student. Harvard College is actually quite mediocre. Do some research, n00b. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4484368) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:29 AM Author: black theatre becky "Harvard College is actually quite mediocre."
virtually no one says that but you, especially with respect to carleton.
"Do some research, n00b."
the only people he'll find who will agree with you will be other bitter rejects. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:18 AM Author: Passionate stag film Wrong. Everyone elite knows that, for getting an education, Princeton is the best of the Ivies. Yale is next. Moreover, MIT is better than Harvard. Harvard is a great university, but the College has shitty morale among its students, and is basically a four-year yacht party for rich people who don't want to have to work hard (with a few hard-working kids who utterly resent the general atmosphere). There's nothing wrong with that-- for some people it's quite a valuable experience-- but it's not ideal if you want a serious academic education. For that, you want one of the "academic five": Chicago, Princeton, Swarthmore, Carleton, and I forget what the other one is (one of the LACs). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486192) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:20 AM Author: Azure Disgusting Therapy LOL, Carleton. Before you turned up, I hadn't even heard of Carleton. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486206) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:20 AM Author: Passionate stag film It's very small, and obscure on account of location. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486213) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:25 AM Author: lake exciting stain fortuitous meteor a Google search for {"academic five" Carleton} turns up 7 results, none of which is a list of five schools that offer a "serious academic education" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486266) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:27 AM Author: Azure Disgusting Therapy Wait, are you saying pensive just made that up? Fuck, my world has been shattered. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486284) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:28 AM Author: lake exciting stain fortuitous meteor welcome to the desert of the real (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486295) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:30 AM Author: Passionate stag film I've heard the phrase before, and I didn't invent it. I didn't claim it was widespread, or that every page that mentioned it had a magically high PageRank. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486321) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:45 AM Author: Seedy halford associate It doesn't count if you heard it from Media Kid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486425) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:49 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater You know you've got a track record of doing this, right? Just making shit up and pretending it's part of the cultural lexicon? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486465) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:02 PM Author: Passionate stag film STFU, doucheczar. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486553) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 3:20 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Exactly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4488204) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:13 PM Author: Saffron dashing incel school cafeteria Didn't you say you were permanently changing your password into some set of random numbers so you couldn't log in again? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483238) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:14 PM Author: Geriatric provocative step-uncle's house famous landscape painting Media Kid changed it and kept it a secret form pensive until pensive decided he wanted it again. An effective plan on several levels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483259) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:17 PM Author: supple giraffe Particularly so since all entities involved exist only in one young man's fevered imagination. Maybe he really does believe they're all independent. His psyche might be that messed up--like a partitioned hard drive, except human. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483287) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:29 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum Extraordinary literary sensibility? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481463) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:38 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Yeah, that's a little ridiculous. He likes to use big words and then claim that that's his "upperclass blue-blooded diction." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481546) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:40 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum His writing isn't special. But maybe he has really good taste? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481558) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:42 PM Author: Drab State Really Tough Guy I wonder if he is even really that good at math. The math PhDs I know are way to hardcore to be futzing around on a law school chat board all day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481581) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum Maybe you only know top 12 math phds (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481593) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:46 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater He didn't get into any of the top math programs. Went to a softbatch LAC for undergrad, the number 13 (yawn) school for grad school, and brags incessantly about once getting honorable mention in a math contest based on work not aligning particularly well with what is considered "real" academic math.
You put it together. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:59 PM Author: Drab State Really Tough Guy You know, when you put it that way, I am actually more prestigious than pensive. I went to a softbatch LAC, and then got into a physics phd program that was ranked 10 at the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481773) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:00 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Yup. He thinks people from LAC's are somehow blacklisted from those kinds of programs because LAC's don't have classes that go far enough, or something. (It's basically just an excuse.)
You're way the hell more prestigious than pensive, for sure. Didn't you build a goddamn laser? |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: Drab State Really Tough Guy I forgot about the laser thing.
That "not enough classes" thing is silly. Anyone looking at grad school from a LAC should be doing all independent study/research by senior year. If anything LAC kids have an advantage cause its easier to get a first authorship. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:24 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater laser = pwned. pure and simple.
the rest of what you say is true too, of course. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 10:55 PM Author: Passionate stag film Yeah, I would also agree on the advisement that an LAC student seeking top grad school placement should pursue several independent studies, as well as the Budapest Semester in Mathematics program (a great undergraduate math program.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483015) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:29 AM Author: Drab State Really Tough Guy Horrible advice. You need to be around for the full senior year to get a publication done. Publishing should be your single minded focus for your final year of school. No wonder you ended up at UW. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486311) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:31 AM Author: Passionate stag film I should have clarified: BSM should be done in sophomore or junior, rather than senior, year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486327) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:50 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater It's not that key at all for anyone. You're just trolling because you happened to do that particular study abroad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486471) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 9:18 PM Author: Passionate stag film It's not "key"-- as in necessary-- at all, but it helps because BSM offers some graduate-level courses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491921) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space "Author: Evan-2001
Extraordinary literary sensibility?"
perhaps he induces hyprbole |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 12:08 AM Author: Judgmental Ultramarine Kitchen Sneaky Criminal The card thing would be awesome if he didn't try to impress us with it, or constantly promote it, or constantly exaggerate its popularity and so on.
I don't know what you mean by literary sensibility, but his writing style sucks ass. I find it near impossible to suffer through his pomposity and extremely sterile way of wording things (don't call a woman outstanding and attractive...just say you wanted to bang her).
You keep saying he's great when he drops the self-promotion and such, but when the fuck does he do that? Even when he was claiming severe depression, he remarked about how prestigious mental illness is. That's absurd.
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Date: December 8th, 2005 12:17 AM Author: Passionate stag film I only brought up Ambition during the Joe Caltech flamewar, though others bring it up (usually to ridicule it) on occasion.
If I find a woman outstanding and attractive, I'll describe her that way. I agree with your comment on my writing style to the extent that I seem to lack as much range as I wish I had. I have a tendency to insist on precision and correctness from myself such a degree that my writing style becomes somewhat fustian, pedantic if you will. My speech is slightly more colloquial, but really just as bad. I only feel comfortable in one style of diction, which some receive as elevated but most as arrogant.
I didn't have severe depression; I have mild anxiety and depression, and as for "prestigious", I was trying to tie these facts into the prestige schtick, but I don't think it worked. In fact, they're reasons why I need to end the prestige schtick some time soon. |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 4:50 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater "I only brought up Ambition during the Joe Caltech flamewar,"
And it made you look damn stupid to do so, too. In the "real world" (you know, the one we, not you, live in) inventing a lame-ass card game ain't no Rhodes Scholarship. |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 9:44 AM Author: Passionate stag film You're a loser and an idiot. Please shut up, because you'll never accomplish anything close to what either Joe or I have. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495908) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 4:49 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater "Even when he was claiming severe depression, he remarked about how prestigious mental illness is. That's absurd."
Yeah, he's never off his game. |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 12:09 AM Author: Judgmental Ultramarine Kitchen Sneaky Criminal I've managed to double post even when double posting is supposedly impossible.
Prestigious. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:02 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space "Author: Media Kid
I've already gone over this: the family is considering publishing a book concept of his, so I know a lot of the details of his life."
that has to be a candidate for the most preposterous post of all time. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:05 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Yes, it does. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481270) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:31 PM Author: Razzle Mother Tanning Salon "the family"....that's a lie right there (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481483) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 10:57 PM Author: Passionate stag film I withdrew the material from consideration. It will not be published. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483055) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:00 PM Author: Emerald Psychic I heard Media Kid's dad hated the manuscript and threatened to disown him for making him waste his time with such trite crap. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483097) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:08 PM Author: Passionate stag film He said I could do better, and I agree. The opportunity cost of writing 400 more pages on a depressing subject matter is pretty huge. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483188) |
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Date: April 27th, 2006 7:08 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum BUMP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5666574) |
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Date: April 27th, 2006 7:38 PM Author: black theatre becky nice bump
the op should add the bit about mike harassing kaavya and then it being revealed that she also won the writing award he brags about all the time
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=406741&mc=14&forum_id=2 |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:01 PM Author: supple giraffe Dude, you got fucking pwned on this thread. Pretty unanimous decision. I think it's time you put this whole thing to rest and just left. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483106) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:14 PM Author: Saffron dashing incel school cafeteria If you actually wrote something (didn't you say in the other thread that you had absolutely no time?) I highly doubt it ever got to the desk of anyone who matters. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483258) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:16 PM Author: supple giraffe The manuscript, Media Kid, and the "rich media family" are all figments of Mike's admittedly rich imagination. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483275) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:16 PM Author: Geriatric provocative step-uncle's house famous landscape painting The User File could probably get published. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483284) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:18 PM Author: supple giraffe That's actually true. But not for the reasons Mike would think.
It could definitely at least become an internet cult favorite. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:02 AM Author: Passionate stag film I am a better writer than you will ever be. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483762) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:16 AM Author: supple giraffe GTO's had stuff published. (And no, not in Japanese online gaming magazines or high school poetry anthologies, either.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483917) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:18 AM Author: Passionate stag film As have I. Though his admissions studies are quite reputable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483933) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:19 AM Author: supple giraffe Note the part about not Japanese online gaming magazines, high school poetry anthologies, or student newspapers.
He's way out ahead of ya, pardner. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 1:01 AM Author: Passionate stag film Yeah, I know. I've been published in other places. I'm done with your shit, though. Find a new argument or you bore me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4484379) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:29 AM Author: black theatre becky care to name a few? we already know where GTO's been published. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4485704) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:19 AM Author: Passionate stag film I guess I can't count carving my name in your mom's uterus, no? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486205) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:51 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Is your schtick now getting logically pummeled and then tossing out low-brow non sequiturs instead of actually rebutting? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486483) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 12:03 PM Author: Passionate stag film No, I'm just tired of his shit. If someone I respected asked me a question, I'd reply. However, can't edit me away! is effectively worthless so there's no point in replying with anything but a parry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4486561) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 3:21 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater But it wasn't a parry--that's just it. It was more like tossing your rapier aside and baring your chest to be skewered (while screaming mom insults). I mean, yeah, you told a (pretty pathetic) "your mom" joke, but you still got totally pwned on the facts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4488223) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 7:13 PM Author: Passionate stag film Nah, just sick of these stupid stomping contests. Both GTO and I are more prestigious than you, trash-fucker, so the outcome of this little spat doesn't even matter from your perspective. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4490616) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:34 PM Author: supple giraffe Looks to me like you can't come up with any substantial publications. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491412) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 8:53 PM Author: Passionate stag film I'm trying to quit the nasty habit of bragging, but now that you've baited me... national contest anthology (#3 entry out of thousands), a couple of publications internal to prior employers (but at the quality level of PRed academic pubs) including one of which I was the primary author, an influential magazine on game design, and Ambition was published (in Japanese) in a Japanese print magazine with circulation in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds. Bang! You lose. Now stop annoying me and shut the fuck up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4491633) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 9:01 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum Those internal memos were a shoe-in for publication. If only Harvard and Princeton could see them now!
Also, "national contest anthology"? |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 9:54 PM Author: black theatre becky i believe the original criteria excluded "Japanese online gaming magazines, high school anthologies, or student newspapers."
this leaves him with only... hmm... those memos. damn. i've written some memos in my day. even interns get to write memos!
sorry pensive. |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 11:58 PM Author: Passionate stag film They weren't memos you stupid fuck, they were internal research papers that were to be held to the same standard as PRed magazines. Why don't you go accomplish something instead of annoying me over the Internet? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4494008) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 4:51 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater OK, nice writeups. GTO still beats you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495638) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 9:46 AM Author: Passionate stag film Well, the matter being discussed was writing talent, not publication record. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495910) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 9:48 AM Author: bespoke sandwich forum I hope you understand that neither practically publishable internal reports nor published academic papers have anything to do with "writing talent." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495920) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 9:54 AM Author: Passionate stag film Yes, clearly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495939) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 1:29 PM Author: Sable Rough-skinned Puppy Menage you're delusional. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5235574) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:45 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space kind of like harvard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483580) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 11:49 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Heh. Of course it "would've" been published for sure, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4483625) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 9:59 AM Author: Irate Vermilion Space you can't fire me; i quit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4485804) |
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Date: December 7th, 2005 10:39 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Exactly. Preposterous. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4485973) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:05 PM Author: Adulterous massive travel guidebook my god man! job well done, 155! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4481277) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: Lascivious Box Office Keepsake Machete http://ambition-game.blogspot.com/
it says he has a friend named Max Leibowitz at Carleton, someone facebook message him all this hilarious pensive stuff |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 1:17 AM Author: Tripping Black Woman Base pensive is cool. v. smart guy too. i don't know why he began posting on this law board in the first place (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4494786) |
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Date: December 8th, 2005 4:51 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Obviously you're not familiar with his work for four years at a place called "Carleton College." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#4495641) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 2:38 PM Author: ivory greedy garrison You fuckers should all know that this thread is the effort of one person congratulating himself under a bunch of different monikers (Old Tom Joad, can't edit me away!, et al). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5236296) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 2:47 PM Author: Sable Rough-skinned Puppy Menage You take this board too seriously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5236371) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 2:45 PM Author: Irate Vermilion Space "For that, you want one of the "academic five": Chicago, Princeton, Swarthmore, Carleton, and I forget what the other one is (one of the LACs)"
i think the fifth is muskingum, in ohio |
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Date: March 12th, 2006 8:41 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Bump for relevance. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5320485) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 10:24 AM Author: Tantric headpube Weird. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325056) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 10:26 AM Author: bespoke sandwich forum mike was doing pretty well for a while. now he's back to his old tricks. :( (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325064) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 10:27 AM Author: Tantric headpube What are his old tricks? I'm still pretty new to this whole autoadmit.com thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325065) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 10:32 AM Author: bespoke sandwich forum mike's a smart guy capable of uncommon insight. unfortunately, most often his head is a swarm of insecurity and delusion. to me, the bizarre recriminiation and lashing out always seemed pretty comical - a rat trying to chew himself out of a steel cage - but lately i've felt bad for the guy. to get a flavor for his neurosis, follow the links in the annotation old tom joad provided toward the beginning of the thread. http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&mc=136&forum_id=2#4481142 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325085) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 10:34 AM Author: Tantric headpube That poor dude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325093) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 11:03 AM Author: bespoke sandwich forum it's a sad story :( (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325273) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 9:15 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater It's a pathetic story. He could begin to cure himself by just leaving this board, admitting that he's got a real problem that he can't blame on others, and getting some serious counseling. That it doesn't happen is very unfortunate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5329964) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 12:45 PM Author: ivory greedy garrison I'm amazed that people still care about this thread. Old Tom Joad's writing skills are so insufferably poor that there's really no point in reading anything he writes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325938) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 12:47 PM Author: Primrose heady church building azn no attention is bad, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5325962) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 12:51 PM Author: ivory greedy garrison Yeah, I guess. I don't mind getting attention. I just hate when coprophiles like Old Tom Joad and can't edit! try to steal the attention I get. Can't those fuckers get attention on their own merits rather than on mine? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5326002) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 12:55 PM Author: Primrose heady church building azn It seems as though the attention that they get is indirect. Like, by posting in this thread, I'm obviously getting some level of attention, but it's all in the context of "pensive". Everything for you, Pensive! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5326028) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 12:59 PM Author: ivory greedy garrison That's a good point. Without me, Old Tom Joad would just be a dirty man in a cardboard box somewhere, masturbating all over himself. Yet, because of me, he's a celebrity. He owes his fucking life to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5326066) |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 1:00 PM Author: Primrose heady church building azn Yeah... exactly
*backs away very slowly* |
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Date: March 27th, 2006 8:30 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle fishy theater Given that he keeps issuing veiled threats to have me killed, maybe I do owe him my life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#5437834) |
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Date: November 17th, 2006 2:15 PM Author: bespoke sandwich forum lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7012557) |
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Date: November 17th, 2006 2:12 PM Author: Sable Rough-skinned Puppy Menage bump (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7012547) |
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Date: December 8th, 2006 4:17 AM Author: Ruby home Someone should update this by summarizing the past year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7168289) |
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Date: December 8th, 2006 4:18 AM Author: Judgmental Ultramarine Kitchen Sneaky Criminal You're still a loser, Pensive. There's nothing to update. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7168292) |
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Date: December 8th, 2006 4:21 AM Author: Ruby home Interesting way to pretend you are not pensive. Where did you get the picture from by the way? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7168298) |
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Date: December 8th, 2006 4:26 AM Author: Wild adventurous mediation So he's a big joke? I had gotten the idea he was respected. But I'm incapable of understanding sarcasm and it's usage. And that is real fun, actually it's not, see what I'm talking about? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#7168308) |
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Date: April 21st, 2008 12:26 AM Author: alcoholic jet orchestra pit affirmative action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#9657875) |
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Date: September 7th, 2008 12:13 AM Author: smoky indian lodge (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=313634&forum_id=2#10134136) |