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MUNGER TOLLES MANAGING PARTNER DIES AT 58 W/ NEPHEW

that she loved to spend time with https://www.mto.com/law...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  04/25/19
>>Ms. Seville-Jones is survived by her father Cliff, t...
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
Read this as "And she is mourned by her colleagues and ...
mind-boggling hall mother
  04/25/19
she made lots of money at munger tolles tho
Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin
  04/25/19
xo's #tennis crew lost a good one >>She possessed a...
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
Locked down legal engagements on the clay court; copped dat ...
Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office
  04/25/19
wtf is this SJW shakedown op? >>Under her leadershi...
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
Gotta be fun ignoring the elephant in the room of a person w...
Flesh center
  04/25/19
...
Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin
  04/25/19
why's that an elephant in the room? not exactly unheard of t...
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
obit says "complications from surgery"
180 sadistic quadroon
  04/25/19
not a c section i'm quite sure.
Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin
  04/25/19
...
180 sadistic quadroon
  04/25/19
...
Irradiated godawful cruise ship
  04/25/19
...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  04/25/19
...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  04/25/19
Looks like a lipless reptile w/ shitgenes
Thirsty Appetizing School Cafeteria Depressive
  04/25/19
I think she was interviewed by some mag a couple of years ag...
well-lubricated trump supporter
  04/25/19
pics? ttt green clay or red clay imported from europe?
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
People with more $ than time often make this kind of wistful...
Sapphire address goal in life
  04/25/19
...
180 sadistic quadroon
  04/25/19
...
mind-boggling hall mother
  04/25/19
...
well-lubricated trump supporter
  04/25/19
I love tennis and spend hours on Xo poasting about it instea...
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
Absolutely devastating
Irradiated godawful cruise ship
  04/25/19
Of course you never know when a commercial grade tuna oven w...
cyan hell laser beams
  04/25/19
Great poast. I know a middle-aged ortho surgeon who has to ...
fiercely-loyal stage
  04/25/19
...
Irradiated godawful cruise ship
  04/25/19
Xo does this but with knives
lemon volcanic crater
  04/26/19
...
Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce
  04/25/19
...
olive voyeur step-uncle's house
  04/25/19
lulz. such my dad's O/U shotguns and boat he used to keep at...
Effete Useless Brakes Crotch
  04/25/19
...
razzmatazz hominid
  04/26/19
Yep. I remember ridiculing her on this bort.
Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce
  04/25/19
That's why lawyers should be into mechanical keyboards as a ...
cruel-hearted patrolman
  04/26/19
Amazingly, here's an article about her from 1982. Seems like...
Silver Chapel
  04/25/19
the child is father to the man
Sapphire address goal in life
  04/25/19
Interesting. She actually was a perfect personality fit for ...
Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce
  04/25/19
...
Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office
  04/25/19
What's important in this is that, beyond doubt, she advanced...
fiercely-loyal stage
  04/25/19
...
olive voyeur step-uncle's house
  04/25/19
*Other partners quickly dialing (and competing with each oth...
Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office
  04/25/19
this is not even parody
Sapphire address goal in life
  04/25/19
...
Supple Bat-shit-crazy Station Ape
  04/25/19
...
Irradiated godawful cruise ship
  04/25/19
...
Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin
  04/25/19
Is munger still the most prestigious biglaw litigation firm ...
Supple Bat-shit-crazy Station Ape
  04/25/19
Not surprising that a law firm would issue an obituary that ...
curious talking friendly grandma
  04/25/19
Meow!
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/25/19
you're a munger for your miserable life and then there are t...
Bateful mustard preventive strike abode
  04/25/19
...
Jade Electric Sandwich
  04/25/19
What's a Munger Tolles?
titillating meetinghouse
  04/25/19
...
multi-colored medicated den people who are hurt
  04/25/19
Sad
cyan hell laser beams
  04/25/19
"Throughout her tenure, she promoted women attorneys an...
Bistre locus dingle berry
  04/25/19
...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  04/26/19
she was a high school debate GOD
sable stage
  04/26/19
HUG --> UCLA JD LOL
sable stage
  04/26/19
Maybe she moved to LA for her husband. Oh wait.
Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life
  04/26/19
...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  04/26/19
...
Obsidian hot property puppy
  05/04/19


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:00 AM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy

that she loved to spend time with

https://www.mto.com/lawyers/Sandra-A-Seville-Jones

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138704)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:08 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

>>Ms. Seville-Jones is survived by her father Cliff, to whom she was devoted, and by her three siblings, Peter, Dawn and Dyan, and her nephew Derek, with whom she loved to spend time. And she is mourned by her colleagues and many dear friends who know they will find no one like her.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138721)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:19 AM
Author: mind-boggling hall mother

Read this as "And she is mourned by her colleagues and many dear friends who know they will find no one liked her."

Then felt bad. :(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140206)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:01 AM
Author: Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin

she made lots of money at munger tolles tho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138706)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:06 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

xo's #tennis crew lost a good one

>>She possessed an abiding love of competitive professional sports from tennis to basketball,

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138716)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:06 AM
Author: Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office

Locked down legal engagements on the clay court; copped dat BBC on the hardwood.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140106)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:07 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

wtf is this SJW shakedown op?

>>Under her leadership, the firm became one of the first to garner Mansfield Certification Plus, recognizing the significant representation of women and attorneys of color in leadership positions at the firm. She

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138717)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:14 AM
Author: Flesh center

Gotta be fun ignoring the elephant in the room of a person with top healthcare at her disposal dying at 58. Amazing to me that the law community still ignores this, time for someone else to make money I guess.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138728)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:24 AM
Author: Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138741)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:27 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

why's that an elephant in the room? not exactly unheard of that wealthy ppl in good shape and in apparent good health suddenly drop dead at 50+

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138748)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:11 AM
Author: 180 sadistic quadroon

obit says "complications from surgery"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138820)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:16 AM
Author: Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin

not a c section i'm quite sure.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138826)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:17 AM
Author: 180 sadistic quadroon



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138828)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:26 AM
Author: Irradiated godawful cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140259)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:07 AM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138817)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 10:36 AM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38139877)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 10:38 AM
Author: Thirsty Appetizing School Cafeteria Depressive

Looks like a lipless reptile w/ shitgenes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38139890)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:11 AM
Author: well-lubricated trump supporter

I think she was interviewed by some mag a couple of years ago for some "women and the law" spread. Maybe it was a different biglaw partner. She was xo catnip (divorced, no kids, worked 24/7, weathered unhealthy look). I just thought she was a really sad person. She had this big house that looked dark, empty, and unused. She had a clay tennis court in the back that was pristine and unused. The funny thing about it was that there wasn't enough space in the backyard (and it was sloped) so the short walls surrounding the court went almost to the boundary lines of the court. The court was basically for show.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140142)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:15 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

pics? ttt green clay or red clay imported from europe?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140167)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:17 AM
Author: Sapphire address goal in life

People with more $ than time often make this kind of wistful purchase. I love tennis, so I will have a tennis court. But it doesn't get used, because they don't actually love tennis, or at least they don't love it as much as they love the latest PPP numbers. You see the same thing with people buying commercial grade ovens, even though they order seamless 4x a week, and boomer partners buying $4,500 custom shop guitars that hang on the wall. It's a symbol of the kind of person they used to be, not the kind of person they are.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140186)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:18 AM
Author: 180 sadistic quadroon



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140190)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:19 AM
Author: mind-boggling hall mother



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140200)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:20 AM
Author: well-lubricated trump supporter



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140212)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:54 AM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

I love tennis and spend hours on Xo poasting about it instead of making enough money to buy a court that I can't use :(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140483)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:57 AM
Author: Irradiated godawful cruise ship

Absolutely devastating

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140496)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:02 PM
Author: cyan hell laser beams

Of course you never know when a commercial grade tuna oven will come in handy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140523)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:04 PM
Author: fiercely-loyal stage

Great poast. I know a middle-aged ortho surgeon who has to spend 10k per year, probably more, on custom guitars made by a small batch maker he's enamored with -- real "craftsman." And legitimately, the guitars are beautiful, intricate, handcrafted. He literally does hang them on the wall in a room down in his basement. I've asked him several times to play with me, just for fun, and he always demurs because he "doesn't have the time to practice" and "isn't good enough anymore." "Why do you buy the guitars then?" Because he's "building a collection." Maybe they'll put the guitars in his coffin.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140530)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: Irradiated godawful cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140831)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 12:51 AM
Author: lemon volcanic crater

Xo does this but with knives

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38144525)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:09 PM
Author: Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140555)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:10 PM
Author: olive voyeur step-uncle's house



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140566)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:51 PM
Author: Effete Useless Brakes Crotch

lulz. such my dad's O/U shotguns and boat he used to keep at Dana Point

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141089)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:30 PM
Author: razzmatazz hominid



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147011)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:57 AM
Author: Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce

Yep. I remember ridiculing her on this bort.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140501)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 3:24 PM
Author: cruel-hearted patrolman

That's why lawyers should be into mechanical keyboards as a hobby.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147285)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:34 AM
Author: Silver Chapel

Amazingly, here's an article about her from 1982. Seems like she was always going to end up like this.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1982/6/10/an-early-retirement-pfor-sandra-seville-jones/

For Sandra Seville-Jones, four years at Harvard have provided great swings of intensity, from fulltime dedication to high-level debating to disenchanted passivity with the College's size and impersonality.

Seville-Jones arrived at Harvard as a heralded public speaker who had been recruited, by schools across the country, known to the nation's large and dedicated circle of debaters for her "absolute, total commitment to the activity," according to Chris Wood '83.

"She was a great, great high school debater and a legend nationally," Wood says. Seville-Jones' "legend" was assured, in fact, in her senior year at the Harvard High School Debate Tournament, when she won the Individual Top Speaker award with a near-perfect score.

Seville-Jones debated at an extremely competitive level in high school, with hours of research, rehearsing, and professional coaching. Lots of travel and fundraising were involved. And she thrived on it. Her reputation and talent continued to grow so dramatically that in her freshman year at Harvard, she and Bill Foutz '80 earned a number one national ranking before losing in the quarter-finals of the championship tournament that spring.

Her debating had become very rewarding but also nerve-wracking because of the demands college competition places on creativity, memory, discipline, and most of all, time. She and Foutz spent months researching the nationwide topic that year, "employment."

"We employed people by building nuclear power plants across the country." she remembers. They prepared extensively to defend the plan's environmental consequences, saying "we had 20 or 30 pages on why nuclear waste was the greatest thing We were going to glassify it, send it to outer space..."

Though she and Foutz placed among the top eight teams in the country Seville-Jones realized after her freshman year that she was missing a lot, and she decided to "take the next year off," referring to debating, not college.

She never did compete seriously again, save for an abortive comeback junior year. Support for debating from the Harvard administration waned, and she grew more and more alienated from the College itself. "The wear and tear on you can be really bad," she explains. "I met no one here my freshman year except my roommates and my roommates' friends."

Today Seville-Jones lives off-campus, deliberately separating herself from the day-to-day life of Harvard. A bad rooming experience sophomore year and frustration over the distance she perceived between herself and her advisors and tutors drove her towards other interests, and towards a lifestyle emphasizing pleasure more than pressure. And with few regrets.

"I was dull. I think getting out of debate has helped me do other things," she says. She has become an avid sports fan with cable television hookups that allow her to follow several baseball teams on a daily basis, and she counts a trip to Los Angeles to see Fernando Valenzuela pitch in the World Series as a highlight of her senior year.

But Seville-Jones misses the intensity and exhilaration that debating brought her, and she hopes her enrollment in Law School this fall will reintroduce challenges she has missed the last three years.

"Law School's competitive, and that's what people in debate want," she explains. "It's that adversary spirit again. It seems like a lot of work, immense. It's a challenge," and apparently one that she is eager to accept, albeit at her own pace.

Seville-Jones still blames Harvard for drastically cutting the debate council's funding, which eliminated coaching and research and discouraged her from competing with the same energy she had shown freshman year. But she does not regret her three-year "retirement."

"There are a lot of things I never would have thought of doing if I were still in debate," she concludes. "I can see where Law School may revert me back to that single-minded self."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140332)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:59 AM
Author: Sapphire address goal in life

the child is father to the man

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140505)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:00 PM
Author: Ruddy Hissy Fit Lettuce

Interesting. She actually was a perfect personality fit for Biglaw. Guess she really was living her dream.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140515)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:13 PM
Author: Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140589)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:08 PM
Author: fiercely-loyal stage

What's important in this is that, beyond doubt, she advanced the business and litigation interests of the firm and its clients and was rewarded richly for doing so. A life well lived.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140551)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:11 PM
Author: olive voyeur step-uncle's house



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140571)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:16 PM
Author: Histrionic Cheese-eating Box Office

*Other partners quickly dialing (and competing with each other for) Ms. Seville-Jones' clients reassuring them that her matters are expeditiously being handed over to them for continuation*

I picture it like that scene from Jerry Maguire where he and the sports agency that just fired him are hurriedly calling Maguire's clients to either retain or poach them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140605)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:09 PM
Author: Sapphire address goal in life

this is not even parody

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140857)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:24 PM
Author: Supple Bat-shit-crazy Station Ape



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140646)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: Irradiated godawful cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140836)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:13 PM
Author: Adventurous unholy idiot cumskin



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141260)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:24 PM
Author: Supple Bat-shit-crazy Station Ape

Is munger still the most prestigious biglaw litigation firm in the country?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140648)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:14 PM
Author: curious talking friendly grandma

Not surprising that a law firm would issue an obituary that is more an ad for its diversity and inclusion efforts.

Of course she was only managing partner because she is unmarried and had no children. I wonder if on her deathbed she had any regrets in dying alone.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140889)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 4:30 PM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

Meow!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38142037)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:26 PM
Author: Bateful mustard preventive strike abode

you're a munger for your miserable life and then there are tolles to pay

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140948)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:28 PM
Author: Jade Electric Sandwich



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:29 PM
Author: titillating meetinghouse

What's a Munger Tolles?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140962)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:29 PM
Author: multi-colored medicated den people who are hurt



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140965)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:14 PM
Author: cyan hell laser beams

Sad

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141273)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:28 PM
Author: Bistre locus dingle berry

"Throughout her tenure, she promoted women attorneys and attorneys of color in the firm and the larger community. During her tenure, more than 60 percent of the firm’s newly elected partners were women and/or attorneys of color. Under her leadership, the firm became one of the first to garner Mansfield Certification Plus, recognizing the significant representation of women and attorneys of color in leadership positions at the firm. She helped revamp the MTO Fellows Program, an initiative aimed at increasing the diversity of the legal profession by helping first generation minority college graduates find their way to and through law school. She spoke frequently at conferences focused on women in law."

Good riddance

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141375)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:24 PM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38146976)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:27 PM
Author: sable stage

she was a high school debate GOD

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38146997)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:37 PM
Author: sable stage

HUG --> UCLA JD LOL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147050)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 4:48 PM
Author: Alcoholic wonderful regret love of her life

Maybe she moved to LA for her husband. Oh wait.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147743)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 7:46 PM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38148488)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 4th, 2019 12:41 PM
Author: Obsidian hot property puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38185922)