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CLS: I am a 2L in Fed Courts
Poast new message in this thread
Date: January 9th, 2007 11:38 AM Author: Sooty hall I am a 2L in Fed Courts
I did not realize this was all such a big deal until somebody pointed me to this message board. There are lots of classes that are over-subscribed. What is the big deal with Fed Courts and 3Ls. I would have thought it would be a bigger deal for 2Ls who did not rank it first and are on the waitlist.
I have not read all these posts, it is just too much, and there are so many non-CLS views on there that I really could care less about, but I will try to at least explain my position:
1) Did not know this was such a big deal (still not convinced that it is). But I would imagine plenty of the 2Ls still in the class have not given this much thought. Certainly not enough thought to mean anyone else harm. Dorf did send an e-mail about over-subscription to the class, but that happens in lots of classes. Should it be common practice for 2Ls who get into the classes they want to drop them for 3Ls who did not rank the classes as high (I know I ranked it higher than complaining 3Ls (I ranked it first) because 3Ls have priority in all classes in the class lottery).
2) Why do 3Ls have the moral high ground here. Even leaving aside the important fact that I ranked the class higher than you, and you had priority over me if we had both ranked it #1, it seems to me to be relatively important to take the class as a 2L. Maybe not crucial, but probably more important than 3Ls taking it. I would like to clerk somewhere...I'd be very happy if it ended up being in a federal court, and I (and all many other 2Ls) are about to apply for a clerkship. Most of the 3Ls have already applied. So, this is an important "last chance" of sorts for 2Ls too. This is the last chance to take the class before clerkship applications. Last chance to try to work hard and get a respectable grade in it to signal to potential judge employers. I mean, you can see how some 2Ls might think that is important right? More or less important than 3Ls who already have a clerkship and want to squeeze in the class in their last semester? I don't know. It's close. But the fact that I ranked the class with appropriate priority (Dorf has been clear that the class was in a small room and would be oversubscribed since last semester) I think really seems to cut against any argument that I have a moral obligation to yield my spot.
If I unsubscribe, I let in one student. Might be a 2L, might be a 3L, but it will almost certainly be someone who ranked the class lower than me. My reason for taking it now is because I hope it will help me with clerkships. Sure it might hurt me, but I think I am taking an informed risk, and I generally think it has a better chance of helping me than hurting me.
Am I wrong? |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:49 AM Author: infuriating comical cuckold heaven So am I, but I got in only because stupid 3Ls didn't rank Fed Courts 1 or 2. SRY, you've been GAMETHEORYPWNED, bite me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7381707) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:53 AM Author: salmon senate jew You make some good points, and while I might disagree with your overall conclusion, the only specific thing I'll take issue with is this: While I can understand wanting to take it as a 2L, I don't think you are correct in thinking that it's MORE important for a 2L to take it than a 3L. You're right in that it's your last chance to give yourself a marginal boost as a 2L. But many 3Ls have promised their judges that they would be taking Fed Cts as a 3L. (I know this doesn't dismiss the response of "then they should have ranked it higher" - this is just to rebut the idea that it's not important for them.) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:24 PM Author: Dun narrow-minded ticket booth affirmative action Any retard who promises their future employer one thing and then fails to make sure they can fulfill that promise deserves what they're getting.
And has anyone actually confirmed that a judge really did force a clerk to promise this? |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:35 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish I'm waiting for a 3L to claim that the judge not only promised to revoke the offer, but throw the 3L's entire family in jail. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7381979) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:51 PM Author: Mint Contagious Nibblets It's gunner douches like you that give law school a bad rap. You are everything that is wrong with law school. The world would be a better place if you killed yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382072) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:54 PM Author: Sooty hall That's really mean. I'm taking your post seriously. I'm outraged and will respond with a long justification for my place on this Earth shortly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382085) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:35 PM Author: shimmering chad You sound pretty dumb here.
1) You say that as a 2L you want to take Fed Courts to clerk. But there are 3Ls who have clerkships already whose judges expect them to take it and there are 3Ls who will be applying to clerkships in the future where judges will expect that they have taken it. This is their last chance to take it. You're a 2L, you still have another year and a guaranteed spot in the fall class. You really think that these 3Ls are taking Fed Courts only because it's a 4 credit class and they like the professor? Come on.
2) You say you're a 2L and you want to take Fed Courts so you can clerk. But you don't see why there's such a fuss about this class. Is there really any other class like Fed Courts that is so important and that judges want you to take before clerking?
Yes, 3Ls underestimated demand and underestimated class size. Sure, they don't have a moral high ground. But it really comes down to this: some of your fellow classmates made a mistake and need to take this class more than you. What's done is done: they're on the waitlist and you're not, but they need to take the class more than you do. So why are you being an ass?
If you want, you can try to justify your actions based on their mistakes. But they can't change what they did and their position on the waitlist. However, you can, and by not dropping the class and taking it next year you are knowingly screwing over your fellow classmates. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:55 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish Again, that's what makes this such an impressive move by the 3Ls. They knew they'd get in no matter how much they fucked up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382510) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:24 PM Author: zippy legend Rumor has it that a few 3L's who have clerkships are considering blackballing 2L's who held spots for no good reason. This alone is a good reason to drop. I don't know if its warranted, but it is something to consider. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382714) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:28 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish Maybe you should have encouraged them to use one of their first two choices on the course in the first place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382747) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:16 PM Author: Wine Impertinent Prole Bawdyhouse If this is true, it's well deserved IMO... not dropping this class given the circumstances says a *whole* lot about someone's character.
In fact I'd be tempted to go one step further and make the list available to all clerks (though I guess seeing Dorf's fed courts on a CLS 2008 grad's Spr. 07 transcript would be sufficient). |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:12 PM Author: salmon senate jew I wouldn't be surprised if someone posts the names here once drop/add is done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383416) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 1:08 AM Author: zippy legend That would be totally uncalled for. While they deserve local vilification - I don't know if they need to be nationally castigated. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7387391) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 1:31 AM Author: salmon senate jew I didn't say I'd do it. I just wouldn't be surprised - it's not like a small number of people know the names. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7387599) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 11:47 AM Author: Lake slippery death wish Don't forget: any 3L on the waitlist ranked a class they absolutely, positively had to take no higher than THIRD. Then they lied about it. Now they're going to get in anyway. Decadent or merely shrewd? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7381701) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:57 PM Author: fragrant chrome pit internal respiration Coming from a 3L on the waitlist, I agree with you. Getting an 'A' in Fed Courts as a 2L would be a nice boost to your upcoming clerkship application. There is no reason you should drop it for a 3L who was foolish enough not to rank it #1 when they promised a future employer that they would take it.
BTW - CLS has much more to gain from letting a bunch of 2L gunners take this course and giving them all A's and A-'s than letting a bunch of 3Ls who have proven themselves to be GAMETHEORYPWNED take it. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:19 PM Author: Wine Impertinent Prole Bawdyhouse Unless the 2Ls get B+s, Bs, and B-s, in which case their chances are severely diminished. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383058) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:10 PM Author: Provocative community account Perhaps this was bad advice, but I went to a clerkship panel where a number of past, current, and future clerks as well as unsuccessful clerkship applicants almost uniformly said that it would be extremely wise to take Fed Cts as a 2L and that judges look very favorably upon seeing it actually on the transcript, instead of vague future promises.
Granted, these people aren't the judges who make the decision. But they went through the clerkship process. I can't imagine how waiting to take Fed Cts could *help* anyone.
So I hold nothing against the 2Ls are are remaining in the class. There is no way taking the class now could hurt them, and there is a substantial possibility that taking it now will help them. I see no reason why they should suffer to correct for the poor planning and selfishness of a few 3Ls.
That said, the registrar should move the class to a bigger room and double its enrollment cap. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:21 PM Author: fragrant chrome pit internal respiration "That said, the registrar should move the class to a bigger room and double its enrollment cap."
Exactly. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:30 PM Author: Odious Brass Laser Beams "I can't imagine how waiting to take Fed Cts could *help* anyone."
My strategy (I think) will be to apply only to a few competitive NYC clerkships next year (SDNY + 2d Cir). If I don't get these clerkships, then I'll wait a few years and try again, casting a wider net. I'm doing this because I want to work in NYC for at least a few years and don't want to clerk outside of NYC and then move back; I'd rather work here for a few years, clerk somewhere else, and then stay there.
Given this strategy, waiting to take fed courts makes sense. I won't have a bad fed courts grade on my transcript during my first round of clerkship apps. If not having fed courts on my transcript hurts me then, it won't hurt me a few years down the road. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:41 PM Author: vigorous selfie I totally disagree. If its not on your transcript after your 2L year, a judge wont flinch. If it is and you dont get an A, they might. Definitely not worth the risk, or the selfishness by taking spots from 3Ls, who probably did assure (if not promise) their judges they'd take it. The stupidness of their ranking seems irrelevant at this point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382383) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:43 PM Author: shimmering chad "The studidness of their ranking seems irrelevant at this point. "
This is completely right. What's done is done. Here's what I wrote above which is relevant to this:
"Yes, 3Ls underestimated demand and underestimated class size. Sure, they don't have a moral high ground. But it really comes down to this: some of your fellow classmates made a mistake and need to take this class more than you. What's done is done: they're on the waitlist and you're not, but they need to take the class more than you do. So why are you being an ass?
If you want, you can try to justify your actions based on their mistakes. But they can't change what they did and their position on the waitlist. However, you can, and by not dropping the class and taking it next year you are knowingly screwing over your fellow classmates."
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:55 PM Author: flushed corner Quite frankly I agree with you, and it shows a mean spiritedness of some of the people at CLS that is simply disgusting. Sure the 3Ls dont have the moral high ground, but we should be looking out for each other at the end of the day, because:
a) When more people do clerkships, the school looks better, and thus, so do we all.
b) These same people who are being screwed over are the same people who may one day be our professional contacts.
To all of the holdout 2Ls: Do the right thing. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:21 PM Author: Wine Impertinent Prole Bawdyhouse "Granted, these people aren't the judges who make the decision. But they went through the clerkship process. I can't imagine how waiting to take Fed Cts could *help* anyone."
It helps the people who are going to get mediocre or less than stellar grades (which will make up the bulk of the class). Better to get a B in fed courts after you have a clerkship offer in hand than before. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:14 PM Author: dark temple lettuce Yeah, law schools aren't full of gunner douchebags who use every opportunity to screw over everyone else. Not at all.
Sounds like 99.99999% of CLSers have a great head start to their futures as lawyers. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:43 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish That's the funny part; every side looks terrible. The 3Ls fucked up entirely and are fully responsible for their plight, but have a ridiculous sense of entitlement. The 2Ls don't really have a compelling reason to stay in, but would rather fuck the 3Ls than drop the class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383652) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:48 PM Author: Costumed plaza Isn't Fed Courts a four credit class? Those are hard to come by during drop add. It would suck for any 2L who had to replace it with a couple of seminars just to meet the residency requirement and appease some myopic 3Ls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383684) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:52 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish I'm pretty sure the residency requirement is only 8 credits, so that much is probably not a huge deal. And they would be guaranteed fed courts for next semester. But it does suck to have to find something at this point and will suck even more if fed courts next term winds up conflicting with something they were hoping to take. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383708) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:57 PM Author: Costumed plaza I think it's 8 points in law, 12 points overall. A 2L doing two 3 point classes and a seminar will be screwed by dropping it. Maybe Dorf should offer to take them all on as RAs, too... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383742) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:05 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish Yeah, I think they're holding out for Dorf to send an email saying, "OK, I called Justice Kennedy, and he's promised clerkships to all the 2Ls who drop the class." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383819) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:13 PM Author: Costumed plaza Sadly, I can imagine some of them staying in thinking an A this very semester will give them a better shot at the justice of their choice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383876) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:58 PM Author: dark temple lettuce Absolutely credited. The 3Ls obviously are at fault (although they do evoke some sympathy, as opposed to the 2Ls that get no sympathy at all).
2Ls who are holding onto the spots because it will 'get them that much closer to a clerkship' are absolutely retarded. It didn't seem to hurt the 3Ls that are taking it this year, did it? People like this deserve the fiery pits of hell, and each one will be scorned by every single one of his/her classmates in the years to come while applying for their own clerkships. Karma's a bitch. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:59 PM Author: flushed corner TITCR. I know good 2Ls staying in the class, but it IS a douchebag move, and yes, what goes around comes around. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383764) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:05 PM Author: Free-loading Deranged Parlor Quadroon When does Columbia release the class schedule for next semester? Because the 2Ls could end up screwed if this guaranteed Fed Courts class conflicts with some seminar they've planned on taking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383822) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 7:48 PM Author: Wine Impertinent Prole Bawdyhouse I'm surprised the 2Ls aren't concerned about getting blackballed by current 3Ls, their friends, clerks who've heard about this situation, etc. when they go through the clerkship process. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7384952) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:04 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish I don't really see how the 3Ls evoke any sympathy at all. This is completely their fault. I think some of the 2Ls are legitimately upset that they're being asked to inconvenience themselves because the 3Ls fucked up. Rather than showing any gratitude, the 3Ls have acted like assholes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7383808) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:15 PM Author: dark temple lettuce I never said that they weren't mostly/completely at fault. Yes, some of the 3Ls have been terrible (hey, this is xoxo), and some of them have proven to be inconsiderate regarding the matter
That does not change the fact that the 2Ls who don't drop the class are 1) complete douchebags 2) assholes and 3) deserve to be karmapwned in their own clerkships. There is no reason for the 2Ls to keep their spot, except to BE complete douchebags about the situation. It's this kind of thinking that makes the world realize that, yes, lawyers are assholes, and I will maintain that regardless of the spurious reasons anyone gives for the 2Ls staying in the class.
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:27 PM Author: Lake slippery death wish Right, that's what makes it a funny situation. Both sides either could have or can take care of the problem, and both have behaved about as poorly as possible. It's just that I have more sympathy for the 2Ls, who would have to take some shit class they don't want this semester and might have their planned 3L schedule screwed up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7384014) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 12:02 AM Author: blue mother As a fellow student, it is now perfectly clear to me that CLS is infested with secret, super-aggressive gunner douches. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7386726) |