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If you want to have a management/business career...
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Date: January 21st, 2007 12:31 PM Author: burgundy senate incel and you are already halfway in or more to getting your law degree, should you bother finishing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7460903) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 12:47 PM Author: burgundy senate incel bump (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7460993) |
Date: January 21st, 2007 12:53 PM Author: mind-boggling office i say finish what you started. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461023) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 12:56 PM Author: burgundy senate incel Why?
"Generally, a law degree will not help you in the world of business. Business people do not trust lawyers or law degrees. Law students, for the most part, deal with words, not numbers, whereas in M.B.A. programs it's the other way around."
http://www.legalcareer.com/faq.html#2 |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:09 PM Author: embarrassed to the bone psychic Total bullshit. Smart business people realize the value of a law degree and there's no rule that says you can't be good with numbers AND words. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461129) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:27 PM Author: Deranged private investor school there is a LOT of horrible information on that site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461288) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:16 PM Author: frozen lascivious theater stage karate "If you want to have options in planning your legal career, you have to be in the top 10% (the top 25% to 33% at the most prestigious schools)."
LOL ... a new definition of "prestigious" I guess |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:09 PM Author: Deranged private investor school seriously. not to mention the implication that top10% @ uconn is comparable to top 1/4 at "the most prestigiou schools" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462967) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 9:29 PM Author: Sadistic state legal warrant the guy who wrote that is a fucking idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7464103) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:05 PM Author: burgundy senate incel And does finishing what I start include practicing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461095) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 2:27 PM Author: rambunctious school cafeteria telephone i'm in a similar position, although i'm out. for me "finishing what i started" included 2 yrs of practice. 1 yr at an NYC office of a V10 and another yr or so at a V50 in DC in a practice area that will be useful when i transition to the health sciences business world... i looked at the 2 yrs as a learning experience ... of course i've been paid for that learning experience... so its kinda nice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461633) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 4:32 PM Author: burgundy senate incel Was that because you wanted to pay off your loans or because of something else? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462271) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:07 PM Author: Wonderful ratface I'd say finish. The degree isn't worth the three years and $150k if you're going into business, but it might be worth the one extra year you have left, and that's the only decision you have to make at this point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461112) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:08 PM Author: burgundy senate incel So you think non-legal employers would actually be more likely to hire me with a JD than with half of one? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461119) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:12 PM Author: Wonderful ratface No, however I think there may be a time when having that extra degree will be something of a boost, and you will be glad you spent the extra year getting it.
And at least employers won't wonder why you wasted two years of law school just to drop out. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:39 PM Author: burgundy senate incel Well, all things being equal, will dropping out after 2 years or after 1.5 years look better to an employer than someone who got the JD and never practiced. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461379) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:40 PM Author: Deranged private investor school ???? a law degree is a good thing |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:41 PM Author: burgundy senate incel I am not sure what this post is supposed to mean. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461392) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:19 PM Author: Iridescent stag film maybe you should try to claw your way into the JD/MBA program. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461219) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:39 PM Author: burgundy senate incel That would be an extra year of schooling, however. I am not sure I can afford that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461374) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 1:58 PM Author: burgundy senate incel What I should have done is try to claw my way into it in the middle of last year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461473) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 2:23 PM Author: indecent soul-stirring depressive mother I work in business, and I hire lawyers. Even though passing the bar isn't required for the job, I look down on anyone who hasn't done it - I certainly would look down on someone who didn't even finish the JD. Of course, I also ask people how hard they had to work to do well in school, because I like people who did well without working too hard - and I don't want people who are workaholics - so I might not be the normal manager.
For the record, I don't have a law degree - I'm thinking of going back to school, possibly starting in Fall 2008. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 2:24 PM Author: burgundy senate incel What do you hire for? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461614) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 2:39 PM Author: indecent soul-stirring depressive mother They work with software license contracts (so law related, but they don't represent the company as lawyers). I get a mix of people from law firms who hate the hours (and they take a pretty big pay cut, but work fewer hours), or people who studied finance/business ugrad before law school. I joined when our company was really concerned about revenue recognition and wanted finance people, but we only hire lawyers now, which gives me the impression my long-term advancement options are limited, despite the recent promotion to management. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7461677) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 4:31 PM Author: burgundy senate incel That sounds like shitty work too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462264) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:00 PM Author: indecent soul-stirring depressive mother I agree. These are people that graduated from undergrad before I did, went to Tier 1 law schools (20-50 range), and now work for me. The pay for them is average (based on the numbers from their schools) for graduates who go into business. Hopefully me being the boss of people like that won't limit my options when I apply. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462415) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:11 PM Author: burgundy senate incel How much are these former lawyers being paid? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462486) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:18 PM Author: indecent soul-stirring depressive mother They start at $70k, and annual bonus will probably be less than $15k. If they stuck it out at the firm a few more years and joined us as inside counsel they would make 3-4X that. If they're good they can move to management in less than a year, where it took me 3X as long - but some will be in the same position until they leave the company. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462538) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:03 PM Author: blue appetizing corner I was in your position and I dropped out after 2 years of law school. I was at a T2. Worked this summer as a clerk at a small law firm for $13/hr. Hated my job and realized that I made more money last summer than probably 60-70% of my class. The legal job market is glutted right now. So many people at my T2, many of whom had better grades than I, were working for free at the State's Attorney, Public Defender, for a judge, etc. Before dropping out, as an experiment, I placed a fake job ad on a website advertising an associate position paying 35K/year. I got about 20 responses, including graduates from Penn, Notre Dame, U of I, Loyola, DePaul, George Washington. These people were working crappy jobs, some as substitute teachers, one guy went from one volunteer legal aid position to another, and another had been working for the past couple years as a paralegal. Now these people may have had other problems, maybe they've been arrested 20 times for DUI (it took the Penn guy 2 years to pass the bar), but that was enough for me to conclude a law degree is highly overrated. My personal opinion, and I realize there will be people who will say this is a flame or attack me for posting a fake job posting, etc., is that employers see someone with a law degree as overqualified and inexperienced. My guess is the guy who is working as a substitute teacher is in that position because school districts, unaware of how awful the legal job market is, fear that he would leave a full-time teaching job for a highly paid job at a law firm. Just my thoughts. Based on my experience after dropping out, the initial job offers you'll after dropping out will range from Loan Officer to Investment Bank Research Analayst to Financial Advisor (aka call up your friends and family and guilt them into signing up an account with you). Good luck in making your decision. I was in your position and it's an awful place to be. Just my thoughts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462430) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:13 PM Author: burgundy senate incel What are you doing now? Debt load? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462493) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:26 PM Author: blue appetizing corner I took the research analyst job. It's amazing how much smarter law students are vs. business people. If you're smart enough to get into a good law school (T2 or above, I'm biased of course :-)), you're smart enough to be a success in business provided you have people skills (and most lawyers have awful ones). Additionally, most law students look down on blue collar jobs, but some of the most financially well off people are dry cleaners and car wash owners (both cash biz btw). Re: debt, I have none, but that's because of familial circumstances. Otherwise, I'd have 60K+. It seems to me that law school is a huge scam and law schools are extremely disingenous when marketing schools. The reason I picked 35K is that's the same salary my cousin made starting out at Hertz. If you want to learn to be rich, I highly recommend Millionaire Mind by Thomas Stanley. It has wonderful insights on selecting careers. It helped me realize the mistake I made in choosing law school. Again, this is my personal experience. For some people, but I don't think most, law school is a smart financial decision. There is no doubt in my mind that I'm making more money now than I'd make with a law degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462594) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:32 PM Author: burgundy senate incel How much do you make? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462647) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:47 PM Author: blue appetizing corner I make 55K which I'm happy as a 24 y/o liberal arts major. My cousin who started out at Hertz is 32 and makes 6 figures. I'm happy with my career potential. I have no idea what type of school you go to, what type of personality you have, etc. so I can't advise you on what is right for you. I think it's important to keep in mind that even if you are in line for a $135K law job out of school, the high attrition rate at those firms. My personal observation from living in a luxury condo building in law school is that "biglaw" associates are some of the most miserable people you'll ever meet. Most of the female lawyers at those places are desperate to find a rich guy to marry him so they can have a few kids and she can leave law forever. The guys seem to always be on the lookout for exit options. Law is not conducive to most people's personalities. It was my experience that law is an awful profession filled with miserable people. There's a reason lawyers have such a high alcoholism/depression rate. In some ways, I think dropping out after going to law school looks better than not going at all. For instance, in interviews, I was asked why I dropped out. I say it wasn't conducive to my personality. I tell them the past summer I sat in an office 50 hours a week doing computer research and realized that was not something I wanted to do the rest of my life. Then the interviewer always makes some comment like "that must be why lawyers have such weird personalities" and laughs. But by dropping out, and this may be me rationalizing my decision, you show people that your not a typical boring lawyer but people still respect you for having the smarts to get into law school. Most people think of lawyers as smart, boring, sneaky people. By dropping out, I think people still see you as smart, but you're able to distance yourself from the negative stereotypes most people have about lawyers. Again, just my thoughts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462773) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:55 PM Author: burgundy senate incel That's pretty good for a liberal arts major. How long were you unemployed? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462859) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:08 PM Author: blue appetizing corner I was underemployed for four months. But if you're in law school, odds are you're unemployed and paying thousands in tuition. I know I'm better off than some Penn, Notre Dame, U of I law grads so that makes me feel comfortable in my decision. Personality, hard work, and results are paramount for success in business. In law, it's the opposite. You're hired based on purely grades and lateral to firms that are equally prestigious as your first one (there are exceptions of course). Looking back in from the outside, it's a really peculiar profession. In no other profession are good grad school grades essential to getting a good job. Bottom of the barrell med students, pharmacy students all do fine. Also, I didn't take the first job that came along and took some time to work some relaxing jobs (I refereed basketball games and worked in a pharmacy for a guy I knew all my life to see if pharmacy was a job I wanted to pursue). Again, you may or may not make 55K coming out. But as long as you get a full-time job, you'll always have opportunity for advancement or use what you have learned in your entry-level job and parlay that into your own biz (like going from Hertz to owning your own car wash). The main thing I underestimated in choosing careers (and picking law school), is that it is extremely important to pick a job that is filled with fun/nice people. That was not my experience in law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462959) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 5:34 PM Author: burgundy senate incel How did those interviews go when you dropped out? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7462662) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:23 PM Author: Deranged private investor school Youd have to be socially retarded and dead last in your class at Penn to not be able to get a $60k job. Same for even ND. I go to a school in the ND range and people w/ at least mediocre (top 1/2) grades OR a decent personality/connections easily get jobs for close to $100k. Some get more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7463035) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:29 PM Author: blue appetizing corner do you really think so? there are penn, notre dame people who get jobs at state's attorney, public defender, etc. Do you really think they are all doing it because of choice? I hope so, because if not, law schools are really misleading college students. i know in illinois, the department of labor projects 900 job openings a years. About 500 people graduate from john marshall alone. Add depaul's grads, and that's about 900 right there. For me, dropping out was the right decision. 55K was more than I could have made starting out in law. I was the opposite; got jobs because of my personality. my law school grades were awful. that's why business seems to have be a better fit. my cousin at hertz is the same way. awful college grades from mediocre college but was president of his frat, etc. But I saw people with much better grades than I, who seemed socially adept, working for free or not working at all this past summer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7463069) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:49 PM Author: Deranged private investor school There are few to no people at Penn who cant do better than working in the DAs office. There are likely a handful at ND that cant do better, but its a very small number. The average person will do much better than $55k. people way below average may or may not. thats not law schools 'misleading' people. Anybody who was done a minimal amount of research about a given school can figure this out. The legal profession has a ton of transparency about starting salaries, much more than 'business' fields.
People who do really bad at John Marshall are certainly fucked. The same for DePaul, but again, thats not the result of some scam. Its pretty easy to figure this out well in advance of going. The mistake people make is assuming they will be at the top of their class. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 6:53 PM Author: blue appetizing corner i meant misleading people in that some naive college students look at depaul and john marshall who claim their average salary is 55 k or whatever, and the students don't realize that 55K includes contract attorneys and is based on a survey that has a 50% response rate. the 55k is technically true, but probably isn't indicative of the typical grad which is what lots of naive students who think life as a lawyer is like what they see on l.a. law probably believe. wouldn't you agree that there are people who in law school who don't belong and society would not notice or suffer if the bottom 50 law schools shut down tomorrow? the small firm i worked at last summer had three attorneys and had three clerks making $10-15/hr. doesn't that seem indicative of a glut? the penn guy's problem i referenced graduated from a top college with honors, got a summer associate position at a pretty large d.c. firm, but it took him 3 years to pass the bar which screwed him over. and like i was telling the op, this was just my opinion, and going to law school is in some people's best interests but not a financially wise decision for many (I would argue most) people (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7463207) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 7:11 PM Author: Deranged private investor school you are combining arguments, some of which are clearly true and some of which are clearly false.
Will ttt grads who do shitty have trouble getting a decent job? Yes
Are there people who 'don't belong' as a lawyer? Yes
Does this mean Penn grads will have trouble getting jobs that pay $100k (much less $55k)? No, unless theyre in the .01% who fail the bar 3 times.
Essentially, ttt schools like John Marshall that may or may not produce a glut in the legal market are irrelevant for someone at Penn or even ND. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 7:23 PM Author: blue appetizing corner ok dude didn't mean to get in a debate with you. my point to the op was that law wasn't for everyone, there's a glut of lawyers, becoming a lawyer makes one overqualified for some jobs, and there are quality of life issues that may make business preferable to law. i could care less what path he chooses and didn't mean to insult nd or penn. what surprised me is that when i put up the fake job posting i had a guy w/ a 3.2 from u of i apply. he said he had family issues he had to take care of but who knows whether that's true or b.s. the penn guy obviously had shitty grades if he took a couple of years to pass the bar, and the nd applicant wasn't a top student. these people, who three years before law school were top students would have been better off skipping law school and going directly into the job market. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567302&forum_id=2#7463354) |