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1st Year at BIGLAW seeks REAL ADVICE
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:47 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol At a V50 in California. Things are bad here. There's no work for 1st years, and everyone's morale is down and people are scared.
I'm hoping this firm will not go down the route of firing 1st years, but who knows.
However, my other concern is that I am learning NOTHING. I have been here 3 months and pretty much surf the internet all day. Pretty much all the 1st years are in the same boat. Actually, I should say we do Pro Bon half the day, and surf the internet the other half.
It's hard to learn anything really substantive doing Pro Bono stuff representing domestic violence victimes. I have been reading treatises and stuff, but that's just like being back in law school.
Forget Partner contact, the senior associates here are too worried about keeping their jobs to really show us anything.
So... what is a good way of learning the stuff that laywers know how to do? Basically, I do not want to be put in a situation where I'm let go after 1 year and know nothing.
I want to cover all my bases. I'd like to do Corporate work, so would like to know the basics of what Corporate lawyers do and such. But I am also realistic, if I get canned in a year I may be looking at Shitlaw, thus I want to know how to file a lawsuit and all that stuff.
What should I do? Read Rutter Practice guides? |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:51 PM Author: Adventurous very tactful meetinghouse mood Check out upcoming CLE classes. Ask some corporate attorneys NOT at your firm what methods they might recommend. Unfortuntaley, a lot of learning is doing, but I would think these things are second best. Also, look for corporate pro bono work, great way to get experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632858) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:54 PM Author: Concupiscible coffee pot whorehouse favorite hentai? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632904) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:54 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol I actually have gotten one corp pro bono assignment, it was pretty useful. However, things are so bad here in terms of work that even the juicy pro bono shit is getting snapped up by senior associates.
Dumb question, but how do I get in the loop regarding CLE classes? Bar website? |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:01 PM Author: Adventurous very tactful meetinghouse mood There are a lot of different outlets for CLE, but yes, your bar website is one. Also, the ABA has stuff. Check out http://www.ali-aba.org/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632983) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 7:37 AM Author: seedy turquoise stock car Talk to the attorney development folks at your firm to find CLE opportunities.
CLE classes are a pretty good way to network with people you otherwise wouldn't meet. I met some sole practitioners/small firm folks that I keep up with.
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:09 PM Author: frozen goal in life private investor nail a partner's daughter and hope she gets knocked up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633043) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:51 PM Author: dark pozpig Start on a MBA from Penn State? (Online/State College Campus) http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees.shtml |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:51 PM Author: Motley nudist dilemma too long. pls summarize, thnx. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632866) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:53 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Gaining no practical experience due to lack of work.
Senior associates no help.
Want to learn the shit corporate lawyers know how to do while also knowing how to file a goddamn lawsuit |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:55 PM Author: marvelous orchid chad locus Well, it looks like you just learned an important lesson concerning brevity. That's a good start. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632917) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:56 PM Author: Motley nudist dilemma 178 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632930) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:30 PM Author: Concupiscible coffee pot whorehouse 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633778) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:31 PM Author: Razzle partner stage A+ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634236) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:30 PM Author: electric wagecucks death wish lulz (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634677) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 3:07 AM Author: Violet Lodge 180. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10636982) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 4:39 AM Author: exciting sound barrier idiot TYFT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10637346) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 6:56 AM Author: angry geriatric property 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10637500) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:53 PM Author: Adventurous very tactful meetinghouse mood he's worried about being a glorified 3L after getting canned as a first year associate. Wants to know how he can learn corporate law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632896) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:55 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol AND litigation basics.
Ideally, if I am put in a situation where I have to do shitlaw (personal injury type shit), I would like to know how to file a complaint, how to answer, etc |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:13 PM Author: frozen goal in life private investor what about clerkships? even crappy ass state and local gigs have ok benefits sometimes. and they count as "litigation" experience, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633079) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:14 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Shitty grades 2L and 3L (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633099) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:23 PM Author: frozen goal in life private investor are you sure this rules you out? does your biglaw job count at all towards this? not that i know, but there are some pretty shitty schools out there that place ridic numbers of "clerks," and there is no way all those people were top 10%. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633179) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:24 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Well maybe my work experience might help me in terms of TTT state clerkships. Definitely something to look into (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633185) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:26 PM Author: galvanic gaped trailer park goyim What kind of school did you go to? This doesn't rule you out, necessarily, especially out of a magistrate judge. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634646) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:32 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol I was top 2% at a literal TTT, then transfered to a T25 and ended with below median grades (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634692) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:39 PM Author: galvanic gaped trailer park goyim Yeah... magistrate judge or bust. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634762) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:20 PM Author: Excitant Masturbator so leave. go putz around at a DA's office if you want actual litigation training/experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633152) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:21 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol They aren't hiring (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633160) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:32 PM Author: Excitant Masturbator DAs always hire tons of law noobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633247) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:33 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Maybe in Bumblefuck South Dakota.
But in any city you'd want to live in, DA jobs are really competitive |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:42 PM Author: Fantasy-prone generalized bond I am always amazed when people say something like, "Just go work for the DA" or "Just go get a job at the public defender".... I remember people going through multiple rounds of interviews to get those jobs during my 3rd year of law school. It didn't seem quite so easy. But hey, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to get a job as a public defender in Gary, Indiana... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10635180) |
Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:54 PM Author: Swashbuckling queen of the night macaca become personal injury attorney (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632901) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:54 PM Author: cordovan godawful sanctuary mother you're scaring the crap out of me. why do you think you'll end up in ShitLaw? i mean, your credentials were good enough to get BigLaw from the outset, no?
i'm sorry. i can't help you. but at least this post will bump your thread a little higher where people can help you.
<-- will furiously target government work |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:57 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol My credentials are not good. T25 law school, below median grades. (I transferred from a litteral TTT, where I was top 2 percent, hence how I landed the BIGLAW job in the first place). Once I got to my new school I stopped caring after I got the BIGLAW job.
You take that into acount with just 1 year (if I am lucky) of experience, and I am looking at Shitlaw. I'm realistic.
Some of my colleagues aren't as worried, since some of them are HYSCCN grads with COA clerkships |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:57 PM Author: talented point he probably went to USC.
WHERE'S YOUR ALUMNI NETWORK NOW, BITCH? |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:07 PM Author: Soul-stirring Mint Heaven Becky lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634057) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:30 PM Author: laughsome fuchsia french chef 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634681) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:04 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home Good enough to get biglaw when he got it doesn't mean good enough to stay in biglaw now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633008) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:05 PM Author: talented point wow fish, that was really insightful. what was your interview to callback to offer ratio again? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633014) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:10 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home It was unique. I don't think I've seen anything like it before or since.
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:12 PM Author: talented point in that it was...? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633071) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:17 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home Well, I took an offer I got on the spot and informed the rest to withdraw my name from consideration, so its hard to say (I had some scheduled, others that didn't get back to me). But it was still pretty pathetic. I don't remember the exact number but it sucked. At any rate, I ended up in NYC biglaw (yes, V100, yes market, etc.) so I can't complain.
EDIT: I think I had like 3 dings when I got the offer I wanted. In my defense, I stupidly applied to a bunch of regional firms as safeties. All the prior dings were from regional firms. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:19 PM Author: talented point in retrospect, do you think it was a social thing, lack of preparation or just bad luck? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633137) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:23 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home See above. It was crappy application management. I should have hit NYC biglaw earlier and harder. I should have pursued corporate rather than lit earlier. I should have written off markets I had no ties to (Milwaukee, Atlanta, TX) or were just hard as hell to get jobs in (DC, SF, LA) and focused on Chicago and NYC.
Basically, now that I've done interviews myself I see what killed me. They saw some guy who had basically no idea what he was doing, didn't care where he lived, he just wanted a high paying job. High probability that he'll realize that he hates it (it being either the job or the city) and will do/go somewhere else.
Then there was just a fit issue with some of the markets and the firms. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:25 PM Author: talented point why were you applying so broadly? did you have some half-baked idea you MIGHT want to live in all those cities (i knew people who thought like this in OCI). or was there a belief that that might be the better strategy to land biglaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633197) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:33 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home "why were you applying so broadly?"
Truthfully? Because I didn't really care where I lived. As long as I had a good job and decent pay I was thrilled. Most people HAVE to live in a certain city/location. I don't and never have. Now I'm in a part of the world few people would chooses to live in for any extended period of time and have no plans to leave.
"or was there a belief that that might be the better strategy to land biglaw?"
I did have this mistaken belief. Being a numbers guy, I took the OCI chart, looked at the GPA ranges of those who got callbacks, and grabbed a bunch of regional firms with lower GPAs. I figured that I should get some jobs from that, which will offset the risk on focusing on DC. It was an EPIC FAIL of a strategy - DC was too competitive and the regional firms didn't want anyone with no connections and who didn't fit in with the locals. After it was clear it wasn't working I rushed to apply to Chicago and NYC. Chicago hires earlier so it was too late. NYC was successful - I lived there before too, and personality fit as well. The regional firms were generally unranked or lower rank in Vault while the NYC firms ranged from top firms to decent firms, which I thought was shocking. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:52 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen This is absolutely true. My safety for OCI was a bunch of regional firms in the region where my V-50 was and had lower GPA requirements than I had. Despite my going to school there, my lack of connection for the region murdered me there. Zero callbacks. I was fucking baffled at the time, but looking back it was exactly as TMF said. I just wanted a decent job and was fine with smaller firms, but no one would believe you.
The top firms in the area would hire out-of-staters (to a limited extent, they hated California people), but the regionals went local connections only. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:55 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home They are blatant about it. Other firms might start by asking why you went to law school, what area of law you're interested in, etc. These firms: "why city X?" "do you have family here?"
I actually got callbacks, but they were a total waste of time. And many kept asking "so, why not NYC?" It gets pretty apparent why the stats align as they do. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:00 PM Author: talented point strange. i also applied to a bunch of random places and different markets and got a fair number of offers (SD, TX, ATL, a few others). my thinking at the time was "why the fuck not?" i'm not trying to be a dick and i've heard plenty of stories that confirm what you're talking about, my experience was just different. fwiw i go to a highly ranked school and was doing this in a good economy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633551) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:03 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home Weird. Do you have distant relatives or something? How did you field the questions that are basically about connections? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633581) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:09 PM Author: talented point in one of the cities i had one set of family friends, but i didn't oversell the story, i was just like "they'd never been here before and they love it" (this was SD, btw).
one of the states was kinda sorta close to the state where i had gone to HS. they seemed the most provincial, though i still got a couple offers there.
another I just said I heard great things about the city. did a 3 callback swing, got one offer.
i guess i will say i wasn't totally honest about the "where else are you interviewing" question. i always acknowledged i was looking at at least one other market, but didn't make clear how much i'd shotgunned 35 firms across OCI. mostly b/c i think that's a bullshit question: if i take their offer for summer employment i'm obviously serious about them. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:16 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home SD I presume is San Diego, not South Dakota. In any event, I think San Diego is a little better with that (I've known a guy who wasn't from there, had no ties, but got a great job there anyway).
It sounds like you were better at handling that situation. But I don't think I do well at selling "I've always wanted to live in Milwaukee! Its the only place I'd interview!" I basically just say "I've been here before and I've always enjoyed myself and would be very happy to settle down here." |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:19 PM Author: talented point i've heard SD is really provincial actually, but i have no idea. i can see places like milwaukee or madison that have like one Vault firm, no major law school and few if any major businesses being a different story.
my thought was that if worse came to worse i'd be able to land a job in/near my LS's home market and OCI sounded like a chance to scam some cool trips out of firms, but i ended up getting some pretty cool opportunities out of it. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:00 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen Yeah, if I could go back in time, I wish someone just had taken my to the side and told me how it really works. I.e. top-10% at a V-50 won't make you automatic for a local firm because there are so few top ones and the midsizes want locals, and because you're from one of the toughest legal markets there is (SF), you need to apply to every one before OCI.
Also, I have family from NYC and have been there thousands of times, but I had no idea that NYC is a much better market than SF, LA, or DC for law students. I totally would have spent a few years out there then moved back when I had experience. Seriously, if xoxo is good for anything, it should be explaining these facts to lawschool applicants. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:02 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home Well said. Basically, that's my reason for writing this. I'm hoping to prevent some poor lost souls from making the same mistakes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633573) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:08 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen Yeah, at least it worked out for you. Whether or not I have a legal career in the future is TBD at this point. On the other hand, keeping my pro-tax policy will be easier if I don't break 6 figures for a few years (though it was certainly nice when I had it). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633623) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:10 PM Author: talented point so you got laidoff, or what? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633643) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:12 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home To be honest, XO kind of sucks in terms of illustrating non-traditional careers in law that can lead to big bucks. Not everyone does law school --> biglaw --> partnership --> :)
If you get government --> biglaw --> partner/CLO/whatever that's not bad either.
But how the hell can anyone be pro tax? I'll tell you what, when I'm in NYC lets meet up and walk past all the project housing, and then we'll look at some apartments for rent, and you tell me how awesome the pro tax policies have been there. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:25 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen Actually, the government route was the one I always wanted, its just impossible to get. Not sure how you get California state government, and I did plenty of DC interviews for high profile agencies, but I always ran into the career guy and he grilled me on my political leanings and I was out. Basically, it was just the right time.
I'm not pro-tax in the sense that I like being taxed. I get annoyed as hell when I look at my paystub each week. And I totally agree that public housing wasn't the best idea. I just am pro-progressive income taxes and pro-social programs, and feel that at the upper ends of income, we still make plenty of money even with 50% going to various government entities. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:35 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home "but I always ran into the career guy and he grilled me on my political leanings and I was out"
If it makes you feel better, this might pwn me at some point in the next 8+ years as well.
"I just am pro-progressive income taxes and pro-social programs, and feel that at the upper ends of income, we still make plenty of money even with 50% going to various government entities."
Not really when you consider that those big salaries require pretty horrid lifestyles and at 50%+ taxes its just not really worth it. The result? You can't really get money unless you come from money. And the government programs? They all tend to look a lot like public housing. When welfare was the rage, was that better? Unless you feel military spending is too low. Personally, I'd slash 50% of military spending tomorrow but that's just me... |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:47 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen Well, I'm hoping an Obama administration is more inclined to not include political leanings in hiring career attorneys, but who knows. It won't be as bad as it was in 2007 (I talked to a few ex-DOJ attorney who quit in disgust).
I knew we'd agree on military spending. I do agree that welfare and similar programs have their problems and should definitely face fierce scrutiny, but my basic opinion is that you're really not going to solve poverty and such, too many people are just incapable of holding real jobs or being productive members of society. However, any country with as many resources as we have doesn't let those people die in the streets or otherwise. Is there a better way to do it - probably. Does it cost more - probably. Anyways, even if we cut military spending and the economy recovers, taxes are going to have to remain high to pay back the damage of the last 8 years.
Also, real wealth is a bit of an illusion. If you want to have a ton of money, either save up as a highly paid lawyer or get a small business loan and start a company (paid for by high taxes, btw). |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:59 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home "Well, I'm hoping an Obama administration is more inclined to not include political leanings in hiring career attorneys, but who knows"
Its hard to say what he'll do yet.
"my basic opinion is that you're really not going to solve poverty and such, too many people are just incapable of holding real jobs or being productive members of society."
I'm not sure about that - there are plenty of jobs that really require minimal skills. Walk around and look at what most people do - sweeping streets, operating hot dog stands, writing parking tickets, etc. And if people "can't" do jobs like that (absent total paralysis or total insanity) what does society owe them?
"However, any country with as many resources as we have doesn't let those people die in the streets or otherwise."
I don't disagree, not at all. I think society owes people a bed in a heated building and some basic food. Maybe basic medical care. That's all. However, that doesn't cost a ton. We could solve homelessness tomorrow if we eliminated public housing - sold all the buildings in attractive locations, and knocked all the walls down in the other buildings, and put beds all the way across so that the number of beds increased (basically like homeless shelters). There would be enough beds for EVERYONE that wanted one. But no, people wouldn't get a nice apartment paid for by the taxpayers. And it would be far cheaper.
"Anyways, even if we cut military spending and the economy recovers, taxes are going to have to remain high to pay back the damage of the last 8 years."
Well, remain high and getting raised are two different things. If you think we should cut out frivolous spending but not cut taxes because we need to pay down debt then I totally agree. Hell, I'll even raise you one balanced budget amendment. But I don't think we need to raise taxes to accomplish what you're talking about.
"Also, real wealth is a bit of an illusion. If you want to have a ton of money, either save up as a highly paid lawyer or get a small business loan and start a company (paid for by high taxes, btw)."
Well, small business loans lead to increased tax revenue, or at least that's their justification. The point is that you can't really save up money as a lawyer if taxes are extremely high.
Ironically, I'm not sure we disagree on all that much. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:04 PM Author: talented point this was a worthwhile post. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634036) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:11 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen Quite possibly. We're both rationale about it. I seem to remember that you liked russia because it has a flat rate income tax, which is something that I think is insane and socially unconscionable (in any modern society), but maybe I have you pegged wrong.
I dunno, my parents made far less money than you and Mandy make combined and they saved up quite a lot. They don't live an extravagent lifestyle, but they certainly lived a decent one. Two people saving on biglaw salaries (and whatever comes next, i.e. never below $100k a year) should be able to accumulate quite a lot by their mid-fifties. Being rich before then without being in the top-1% of a profession in this society is fairly unrealistic.
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:29 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home "I seem to remember that you liked russia because it has a flat rate income tax, which is something that I think is insane and socially unconscionable (in any modern society), but maybe I have you pegged wrong."
You're right, and we disagree here, but its actually not as big of a disagreement as you might think.
"I dunno, my parents made far less money than you and Mandy make combined and they saved up quite a lot. They don't live an extravagent lifestyle, but they certainly lived a decent one. Two people saving on biglaw salaries (and whatever comes next, i.e. never below $100k a year) should be able to accumulate quite a lot by their mid-fifties."
I'm going to take a wild guess that they don't live in a high COL area. Also, this is basically saying that you can die with money in the bank if you live a miserly lifestyle, but this isn't the same as saying that through hard work you can move up in class. I would think its desirable for people born into society to know that being hard working and smart will mean that they'll live good lives where the sky is the limit regardless of what they were born into. |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 3:26 AM Author: Burgundy business firm black woman these people aren't dying you fucking retard the debate is over the kind of lifestyle we're going to force people to provide them. and there aren't many people who CAN'T be productive. there are many more who just won't. their problem, not mine. you have no money to give so you don't deserve a voice in this debate you dirty failure poor. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10637047) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 3:41 AM Author: Violet Lodge Uh, couldn't you just lie about your political leanings?!? Seems worth it to get a decent job... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10637105) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:10 PM Author: frozen goal in life private investor no intent here to ever wind up in biglaw. but thanks for the great thread anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633636) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:34 PM Author: Razzle partner stage dood. this describes me.
how do you get around that "i don't care where i live" thing |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:35 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home I didn't. It utterly murdered me for everywhere except NYC, which doesn't care. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634280) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:57 PM Author: Amber trump supporter You need to chill the fuck out and realize what an awesome situation you have. You're getting paid bank to dick around at work all day, and yeah, you'll probably be let go after 1 year but you'll likely get a sweet severance package and you'll have an impressive job for your resume. Just don't be caught off-guard when they let you go -- start looking/planning for another job right now, and enjoy your high-paid vacation. Pussy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632943) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:00 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol I agree with all of this.
But I do not want to be 1 year into my "legal career" and know absolutely jackshit.
Yes, you can say that even in good times 1st years would be in that situation since all they do is Doc Review/ Diligence. But I am sure on the side they learn to do SOMETHING substantive |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:02 PM Author: Amber trump supporter When firms are deciding whether to lay off "unproductive" associates, do they look solely at your billable hours tally? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632987) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:03 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Who knows what management is thinking.
The only clue I got to this as a new associate is that (at my firm at least) you get judged more on your pure amount of hours as 1-2 years, and then the quality of your work as you get more senior |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:08 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home From what I've been reading and seeing they look at a bunch of things depending on firm including billable hours, future expectations of billable hours (some people that had awesome billables are being cut because they don't see that continuing), demands from the management committee for targeted cuts (if your billables are better than some douche in lit but you happen to be in real estate and real estate has to cut half its people you may still get cut, or if you're in office X and office X is required to cut a ton of people then you're screwed), and seniority (mid-levels and seniors are more expensive so they're an obvious target for cuts). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633036) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 4:57 PM Author: Gold greedy shrine dingle berry get a midlevel's closing set, get document ids, run blacklines (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10632946) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:06 PM Author: Adventurous very tactful meetinghouse mood This is good advice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633024) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:09 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home That's excellent advice. If you really have a mid-level who is a FRIEND and has spare time you can ask him to explain some of the changes you don't get. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633047) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:03 PM Author: awkward boistinker are you in the bay area? bend over and kiss your job goodbye soon
if in LA , you'll prob be ok |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:06 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol That's a stupid statement. I am sure the Thelen associates in LA were much safer than the Mofo associates in San Francisco.
Must BIGLAW firms are hurting wherever they are. I'd much rather be in Kirkland SF than Latham LA or something |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:09 PM Author: awkward boistinker all joking aside, from your decription i'd say you were at WSGR. they (along with fenwick, cooley, etc.) are gonna do cuts soon.
read your firm's training manuals, annotations on docs, etc. learn what you can, take your severance, and do something else for a few months until things settle down |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:11 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Pretty drastic for firms like WSGR, Fenwick, Cooley etc to all be cutting first years that just started.
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:15 PM Author: awkward boistinker i dunno, gunderson and orrick did it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633109) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:17 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Proskauer did, Orrick did not (unless ATL missed it).
So far, only Proskauer and Gunderson are on record as having cut new associates (Class of 08ers)
Of course, I would not be surprised if I did get cut, I mean like I said, all of us are basically useless to the firm right now. I hope I get some severance |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:27 PM Author: galvanic gaped trailer park goyim Treating associates this way would NOT be a drastic move for WSGR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634656) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:31 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol I am actually going to agree with this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634685) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:44 PM Author: hot sepia rigpig deer antler I spent my 1L summer there... the associates there are treated as completely expendable until about their 3rd or 4th years (which is true, I guess), when they are either fired or given a pat on the back for surviving the torture of the first few years (though this doesn't mean it gets better). The people were absolutely miserable and, on my final day there, my associate mentor took me out to drinks, told me how horrible the firm was, that he had found a new job and was leaving, and he implored me not to come back. I listened and am so, so glad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634807) |
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Date: January 3rd, 2009 3:43 AM Author: Violet Lodge Holy shit, this is the kind of post that XOXO needs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10637110) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:05 PM Author: impertinent set boiling water killself (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633013) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:33 PM Author: demanding irate marketing idea dont worry about not having any skills. tons of people in class of 07 have already spent more than a year sitting around learning nothing.
the best thing you can do right now is be proactive. schmooze with senior people who are in a position to give you work. keep bugging them for work periodically. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 5:57 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen This is basically true. I have friends in corp in LA and SF who basically haven't learned a damn thing. And while this may not be as true for corp (because there isn't a lot of small-law corp), in lit you can basically learn everything in 2 months at a small lit firm that you would in a year in big law simply because you get exposed to more than doc review and depo summaries.
I mean, I worked at a small firm for 4 months before getting laid off and I guarantee you I have more substantial writing samples than the 2nd year associates I do doc review with as a staff attorney. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:24 PM Author: demanding irate marketing idea you can't make generalizations about what kind of experience in get in a small lit firm vs. a biglaw firm. the responsibility at a biglaw firm is partly based on how it's staffed, your ability, your initiative in asking for responsibility, and the size/complexity of the cases you get on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633723) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:30 PM Author: Yellow Kitchen This is true from what I've heard. However, I've seen enough to know that major responsibility is the exception to the rule. (And by major, I mean drafting important pleadings within your first year). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633770) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:08 PM Author: demanding irate marketing idea the majority of people in biglaw have drafted a part of pleadings/motions (complaint, answer, MTD, motion to compel, class cert, etc) by the end of the first year. all have drafted some form of discovery requests/subpoenas or responses to them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634070) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:41 PM Author: boyish lime national fat ankles titcr. Most have done each of these things several times actually. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634777) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 6:50 PM Author: smoky school cafeteria Why don't you take on a pro bono case that will provide you with some real experience? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10633926) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:23 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Cause things are so slow that even the more plum pro bono assignments are being taken by more senior associates (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634628) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:26 PM Author: know-it-all free-loading place of business area GO find your own opportunities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634649) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:30 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol LOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634682) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:06 PM Author: Transparent Water Buffalo Another distraught Latham 1st year freaking out? Damn. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634048) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:22 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol V50, not V10 or whatever Latham is (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634625) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 7:32 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house Stop trying to do Corporate work. It won't exist again until 2014. Just learn to fucking be an actual lawyer (i.e. a lawyer who actual works on and with legal disputes) or kill self in face. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634249) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:22 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Read the OP, you fuckin moron. That's what I am trying to do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634623) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:26 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house And I'm trying to do BIGSLEEPINGINMYOFFICEFOR$270KLAW, but I still think I'm going to bill more hours next year than you.
HINT: I didn't read the OP. Also, do you post here?
HINT2: If you went to law school planning to "do corporate law," you probably deserve this. Sorry about your made up career. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:32 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Get off this thread. You are useless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634699) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:35 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house Sorry, you're thinking of your career as the guy who cleans town cars for the unemployed I-Bankers' car service.
V20 litigators are still busy and employable. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:38 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Lol, child. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634745) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:40 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house I work at a better firm than you, am a year ahead of you and am actually busy, but I am a "child?"
Sorry about your tiny pink career, bro. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:41 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Lol. You sound like an insignificant human being (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634774) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:47 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house LOL
LOL
LOL
Hilarious.
You're getting laid off and I billed 210 hours last month at a firm that actually has good work for young associates who aren't incoherent fagots with no future.
Go eat a bowl of $.30 dicks with your second to last paycheck, you pathetic piece of shit. You haven't even postured like you have meaningful options so don't feign it now. Its terribly unbecoming.
Just go jack off into your last pair of socks and then take 40 of whatever you can still afford at the drugstore. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:47 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol You are making it painfully obvious that not only are you not in BIGLAW, you probably aren't a law student (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634839) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:51 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house Anyone here who knows who I am knows I'm in "BIGLAW" but whatever you want to think, slugger. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634864) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:55 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:51 PM Author: Howard the Duck
Anyone here who knows who I am knows I'm in "BIGLAW" but whatever you want to think, slugger.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634864)
Haha, you are seeking validation from a bunch of anonymous message board posters. LOL at your life |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:23 PM Author: floppy submissive haunted graveyard Why are you so mean? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10635067) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:40 PM Author: Exhilarant hissy fit step-uncle's house Internetz.
Plus, 2 years ago everyone on here was all like "oh, hey, I haz third year associate job in PE at V80 and 13 offers to lateral to inhouse Hedge fund job for $900K, should I take it??"
Now they all fuck goats for nickles. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:28 PM Author: boyish lime national fat ankles take CLE's, thats the best advice in this entire thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634664) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:42 PM Author: Swashbuckling queen of the night macaca yeah so he can be lockstep with the 10000 other attorneys who want to do bankruptcy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634786) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:45 PM Author: boyish lime national fat ankles there are precisely zero ways available to actually differentiate yourself in this profession. You and 40,000 other people are all thinking the exact same thing. The most you can do is not be lazier than everyone else and do CLE's and beg for work. If you want to differentiate yourself you have to leave the profession altogether because law values conformity and prestige and nothing more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634819) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:43 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Two questions:
1) What is your firm's policy on moonlighting?
2) How easy is it to do work on spec at your firm? |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:51 PM Author: boyish lime national fat ankles no firm is going to knowing let a 1st year moonlight while he is on their insurance policy. They only allow the pro bono shit for the PR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634862) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 8:57 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Different firms have different policies.
One friend could do all sorts of stuff on the side, he just had to notify his firm and have a specific engagement letter. Though you're right, it's very rare. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:02 PM Author: vibrant cheese-eating home This seems like a terrible idea that would put you at the top of the list of people they would be more eager to can. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634954) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:05 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Just depends on the firm.
My friend did low end trademark work that the firm didn't want to deal with and used it to develop broader business with the client. Actually turned out to be a solid career play for him.
EDIT: Im just trying to get the lay of the land. Not recommending anything for him yet. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:10 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Not allowed, impossible (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634989) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:11 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Does your firm have a SV office or a emerging growth group? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10634998) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:15 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol No (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10635016) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:23 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets What group are you in currently?
How many people in your office?
Is it acceptable within the firm's culture to directly contact partners for work? |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:31 PM Author: painfully honest hairless principal's office pistol Corporate, but my firm "unofficially" allows you to take work from other departments in your first 2 years.
50ish
Yes |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:42 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Find the busiest partner and offer to write an article for him. Get it done in 3-4 days and make sure it is solid.
Does your firm have favorable client development rules? If so, then start wining and dining people to build a network. Start introducing the partners you want to get work from to contacts that they would be interested in. |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:44 PM Author: Cobalt jew 3-4 days for an article? Sounds hellish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10635195) |
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Date: January 2nd, 2009 9:45 PM Author: puce yapping nibblets Miserable. But 90% of the time an associate talks about doing an article with a partner and nothing materializes. He wants to make an impression; this is one day to do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=909183&forum_id=2#10635200) |