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NYT: CLS graduates struggle in job market (link)
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: April 26th, 2015 10:19 PM Author: Bateful menage messiness http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/business/dealbook/burdened-with-debt-law-school-graduates-struggle-in-job-market.html?_r=1&referrer=
By ELIZABETH OLSON APRIL 26, 2015 Jonathan Wang has not practiced law since he graduated from Columbia Law School in 2010, but he did not plan it that way.
When he entered law school, the economy was flourishing, and he had every reason to think that with a prestigious degree he was headed for a secure well-paying career. He convinced his parents, who work in Silicon Valley, that he had a plan. “I would spend three years at school in New York, then work for a big law firm and make $160,000 a year,” said Mr. Wang, 29. “And someday, I would become a partner and live the good life.”
Mr. Wang, who works in Manhattan as a tutor for the law school admissions exam, is living a life far different from the one he envisioned. And he is not alone. About 20 percent of law graduates from 2010 are working at jobs that do not require a law license, according to a new study, and only 40 percent are working in law firms, compared with 60 percent from the class a decade earlier. To pay the bills, the 2010 graduates have taken on a variety of jobs, some that do not require admission to the bar; others have struck out on their own with solo practices. Most of the graduates have substantial student debt.
Even as law school enrollment was peaking in 2010 — reaching 52,488, according to American Bar Association figures — those graduating were not receiving job offers from firms where they were interning. And offers to some students were rescinded.
“None of this was on my radar,” Mr. Wang said, “but it began to be obvious by the time second-year summer internships were over. We knew things were depressed, but then the legs were cut out from under us.”
After the economic collapse in the fall of 2008, corporations began to cut spending on legal matters, and law firms, in turn, began to reduce their hiring and even laid off employees. The legal profession was undergoing the early wave of turbulence that left graduates in subsequent classes facing a harsher job market that has shown few signs of a robust recovery. But the class of 2010 was the first to experience it full force.
At the time, legal scholars predicted that when the economy turned the corner, the new graduates would find jobs. But the checkered job outcomes for the 2010 law graduates could be predicted by their early employment numbers, said Deborah J. Merritt, a law professor at Ohio State University’s Moritz College of Law.
She wrote “What Happened to the Class of 2010? Empirical Evidence of Structural Change in the Legal Profession,” a study published in March that examined the careers of those graduates and the legal marketplace.
Professor Merritt combined public data, including court records and the employment outcomes of more than 1,200 lawyers who received their law degrees in 2010 and then passed the Ohio bar, with information from the National Association of Law Placement recorded for the same class nationally. She concluded that the 2010 class had not recovered in the ensuing years.
“Employment has improved only marginally for the class,” she said, “with unemployment at 6 percent, many fewer lawyers working at law firms and a leap in the percentage of solo practitioners.
“These outcomes contrast markedly with those from the 2000 graduating class, which was also shadowed by an economic recession but were later able to better their positions,” she said. “But that type of progress has not occurred for the Class of 2010.”
With law firms cutting back, she said, most available positions “fall within modest-paying categories: solo practice, small firms, government work and business jobs that do not require bar admission.”
And they might be the lucky ones, according to some 2010 graduates who said they were “too ashamed that I have not found a legal job” to allow their names to be mentioned. One law school graduate who said he did not want to draw attention to his lack of permanent employment said he was “doing rote legal temp work on the side to pay rent.”
Jonathan Wang has not practiced law since he graduated from Columbia Law School in 2010, but he did not plan it that way.
When he entered law school, the economy was flourishing, and he had every reason to think that with a prestigious degree he was headed for a secure well-paying career. He convinced his parents, who work in Silicon Valley, that he had a plan. “I would spend three years at school in New York, then work for a big law firm and make $160,000 a year,” said Mr. Wang, 29. “And someday, I would become a partner and live the good life.”
Mr. Wang, who works in Manhattan as a tutor for the law school admissions exam, is living a life far different from the one he envisioned. And he is not alone. About 20 percent of law graduates from 2010 are working at jobs that do not require a law license, according to a new study, and only 40 percent are working in law firms, compared with 60 percent from the class a decade earlier. To pay the bills, the 2010 graduates have taken on a variety of jobs, some that do not require admission to the bar; others have struck out on their own with solo practices. Most of the graduates have substantial student debt.
Even as law school enrollment was peaking in 2010 — reaching 52,488, according to American Bar Association figures — those graduating were not receiving job offers from firms where they were interning. And offers to some students were rescinded.
“None of this was on my radar,” Mr. Wang said, “but it began to be obvious by the time second-year summer internships were over. We knew things were depressed, but then the legs were cut out from under us.”
After the economic collapse in the fall of 2008, corporations began to cut spending on legal matters, and law firms, in turn, began to reduce their hiring and even laid off employees. The legal profession was undergoing the early wave of turbulence that left graduates in subsequent classes facing a harsher job market that has shown few signs of a robust recovery. But the class of 2010 was the first to experience it full force.
At the time, legal scholars predicted that when the economy turned the corner, the new graduates would find jobs. But the checkered job outcomes for the 2010 law graduates could be predicted by their early employment numbers, said Deborah J. Merritt, a law professor at Ohio State University’s Moritz College of Law.
She wrote “What Happened to the Class of 2010? Empirical Evidence of Structural Change in the Legal Profession,” a study published in March that examined the careers of those graduates and the legal marketplace.
Professor Merritt combined public data, including court records and the employment outcomes of more than 1,200 lawyers who received their law degrees in 2010 and then passed the Ohio bar, with information from the National Association of Law Placement recorded for the same class nationally. She concluded that the 2010 class had not recovered in the ensuing years.
“Employment has improved only marginally for the class,” she said, “with unemployment at 6 percent, many fewer lawyers working at law firms and a leap in the percentage of solo practitioners.
“These outcomes contrast markedly with those from the 2000 graduating class, which was also shadowed by an economic recession but were later able to better their positions,” she said. “But that type of progress has not occurred for the Class of 2010.”
With law firms cutting back, she said, most available positions “fall within modest-paying categories: solo practice, small firms, government work and business jobs that do not require bar admission.”
And they might be the lucky ones, according to some 2010 graduates who said they were “too ashamed that I have not found a legal job” to allow their names to be mentioned. One law school graduate who said he did not want to draw attention to his lack of permanent employment said he was “doing rote legal temp work on the side to pay rent.”
“I dare not put it on my résumé because it makes you instantly nonprestigious and unemployable,” he added.
Others, like G. Troy Pickett, 44, of Houston, who worked as a bartender in Austin before going back to school with the intent of becoming a big-firm mergers and acquisitions lawyer, opted to set up their own practices.
“I began to realize that I had set the bar too high, but I kept thinking that if I could get my foot in the door, I could do it,” he said of his decision to attend South Texas College of Law in Houston.
Then he saw that fewer firms were recruiting on campus and job offers were evaporating.
“It was a double whammy. Our class was also competing with third- and fourth-year associates who had been laid off,” he said. He took the Texas bar exam six months early while still in law school to save time and money. The same day he passed, in June 2010, he and a fellow student formed a law practice, which handles family law issues like divorces and child custody.
Another 2010 graduate, Hyatt Shirkey, 30, who received his diploma in May 2010 from Ohio State’s law school, moved to Virginia, where he passed the bar the following July, and decided to open his own practice after juggling several jobs.
“When I started law school, it was still a great era,” he said. “I had some good experiences, including working for a federal judge in Columbus, Ohio. Then, the end of my second year in school, I saw that law firm offers were being pushed back.”
“There was a glut of people in the job market, and the only job I could find did not require a law license,” added Mr. Shirkey, who first ran the paralegal studies program for a private college in Roanoke, Va. He eventually found work at the Roanoke public defender’s office but kept his part-time job at the paralegal program and another as a server at a Cracker Barrel restaurant.
Since then, he found a job teaching contract law at a local community college and opened a solo practice in criminal defense to “build up my experience and reputation” so he could qualify for an opening in the United States attorney’s office. For now, he receives referrals for cases that the public defender cannot take on, but he said practicing on his own was uncertain financially. And, like more than 80 percent of law school graduates, he has substantial student debt.
Over all, nearly 85 percent of law graduates have taken out student loans, according to the website Law School Transparency, and 2010 law graduates accumulated debt averaging $77,364 at public law schools and $112,007 at private ones.
Many have received financial hardship deferments or, like Mr. Shirkey, who accumulated $365,000 in student debt, including some undergraduate loans, received credits for public interest work. Federal government rules, revised last year, allow student borrowers who work in nonprofit and public sector jobs to have their loans forgiven after 10 years and to pay back their college loans based on their income and expenses.
“Otherwise, I would be very, very much in a pickle,” Mr. Shirkey said. “I anticipate that I will wind up working for the government or a nonprofit because I will need the credits to take care of my loan burden.
“Every time I look at the debt amount,” he said, “my heart beats a little harder.”
After he graduated, Mr. Wang had a yearlong fellowship with a state court judge, but when that ended in 2011, the “market was still awful,” he said. After he was admitted to the New York State bar, he turned to tutoring and law school advising to pay his rent and loans.
“I thought the LSAT tutoring gig was going to be a temporary thing, but five years and one bar admission renewal later, here I am,” he said. His business has greatly expanded and he makes $100 an hour, but that is far below what he would make at a law firm. And, he said, “I waffle constantly, but I’m still in the mind-set that I need to find a real job.” |
Date: April 26th, 2015 10:21 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit non-white LS grads always get shit esp NOWAGS who cant stand up for themselves, even when the economy was good i knew NOWAGS like this who didnt get real jerbs even from t14 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767404) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:21 PM Author: cream home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767405) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:24 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit LJL
Many have received financial hardship deferments or, like Mr. Shirkey, who accumulated $365,000 in student debt, including some undergraduate loans, received credits for public interest work. Federal government rules, revised last year, allow student borrowers who work in nonprofit and public sector jobs to have their loans forgiven after 10 years and to pay back their college loans based on their income and expenses. |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:26 PM Author: startled trust fund nibblets how is that possible to rack up that much debt in law school? is she renting like the nicest 4 bedroom apartment she can find just for herself? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767434) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:31 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit ppl r fuking dumb shits, but TBF 50k a year tuition for seven years is 350k
ljl at amerikkka |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:25 PM Author: Soul-stirring mahogany gas station I know a lot of CLS students. They're bitter and jelly as fuck of b-school students. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767421) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:43 PM Author: swashbuckling sepia national legal warrant No idea why you keep trying this CBS schtick after being told thousands of times nobody cares, JJC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767573) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:51 PM Author: disturbing ladyboy fat ankles nobody is jealous of cbs students lmao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768032) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:25 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting Why hasn't he tried to go solo?
There's really no reason for a law grad who actually wants to practice to not attempt to go solo. It doesn't even cost that much to get started. |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:26 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit 99% of lawyers are pussies, even actual lawyers who have been in BIGLAW for years are scared to go solo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767439) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:27 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting Sure, but this guy has absolutely NOTHING to lose. Why be scared of nothing? It's not like he's a biglaw associate and afraid to risk leaving $160k+ a year to go solo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767448) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:31 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit he's a NOWAG too (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767493) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:35 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting True, but not attempting to go solo in almost 5 years when you want to actually practice law is absolutely ridiculous.
If I were in his shoes, I would have attempted to go solo if I couldn't find a decent legal job within a year of graduation. |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:35 PM Author: Flickering hissy fit None of these fucks really want to practicce law, they want to make 160k for doing jack shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767524) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:36 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767534) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:38 PM Author: charismatic native (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767549) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:39 PM Author: Bateful menage messiness CR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767552) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:06 PM Author: Maniacal iridescent library (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767716) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:19 PM Author: comical indian lodge regret (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767801) |
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Date: February 1st, 2018 3:34 AM Author: Trip blathering business firm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#35294147) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:27 PM Author: charismatic native "A startling 35% (thirty-five percent) have donated what's remaining of their tormented bodies to the sidewalk adjacent to 120 Broadway," one expert added. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767447) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:48 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting How does this happen? I thought pretty much everyone from CLS gets a decent job (even those at the bottom of the class). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767605) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:51 PM Author: Adventurous Fiercely-loyal Locale Round Eye Pretty much everyone does. Real employment in JD-required jobs at CLS is at or around 95% now, but in 2010 it was probably around 85-90%, so that leaves 10-15% of fucked up dudes like this. . . If he were smart, he'd have just hopped into a decent tax llm program in 2013 or so when the job market bounced back, and he'd be at a firm right now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767628) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:12 AM Author: curious embarrassed to the bone university lol. just take on MOAR debt for a tax llm. what could go wrong? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768164) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 10:52 PM Author: Floppy azure jew ooof
Others, like G. Troy Pickett, 44, of Houston, who worked as a bartender in Austin before going back to school with the intent of becoming a big-firm mergers and acquisitions lawyer, opted to set up their own practices.
“I began to realize that I had set the bar too high, but I kept thinking that if I could get my foot in the door, I could do it,” he said of his decision to attend South Texas College of Law in Houston. |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:07 PM Author: Maniacal iridescent library lmao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767720) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:10 PM Author: canary market famous landscape painting ha (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767735) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 3:45 AM Author: cocky 180 theater stage shitlib How often do South Texas grads go into biglaw M&A? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768784) |
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Date: January 23rd, 2020 10:38 AM Author: Stirring coldplay fan kitty cat yeah that's the point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#39475717) |
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Date: February 1st, 2018 2:55 AM Author: cream home wonder if he has debt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#35294093) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:10 PM Author: histrionic frisky son of senegal corner Yes, but among our alumni we count Dare Devil. (see episode 3) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767739) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:11 PM Author: exhilarant center "And someday, I would become a partner and live the good life."
I'm 100% sure he's poasted on XO. That's Estrada wording.
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:20 PM Author: stimulating psychic glad I wasn't the only one to notice all of the parallels between Mr. Wang and Estrada, down to word choice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767806) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:14 PM Author: Maroon casino CLS takes something like 900 tranafer students a year. They aren't all getting good jobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767761) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:31 PM Author: dull base headpube that guy tutors for $400/hr. wtf? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767870) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:38 PM Author: Adventurous Fiercely-loyal Locale Round Eye He tutors for $100/hour, but still. If he could do that 8 hours a day all year, he'd make $208,000 a year. That's far more than biglaw, which is about the same money on average from years 1-5 for 12 hours a day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767915) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:42 PM Author: Green Supple Forum Codepig he's not coming close to 8 hours a day (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27767948) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:46 PM Author: Bateful menage messiness CR.
LSAT prep work is like 20hours per week |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:49 PM Author: Beta apoplectic box office private investor oh wow... $100k for a 20/hr per week jerb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768023) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:55 PM Author: dull base headpube no, his website says $400/hr for live tutoring. $200/hr for web tutoring. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768057) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 7:20 AM Author: Vivacious abode Who actually pays those rates for LSAT tutoring, especially to a guy who couldn't get biglaw from cls? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768934) |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:56 PM Author: Cerebral Pearl Bbw Marketing Idea Went to CCN, but got a named scholly ayy lmao.
Of course, my career and life are still shit.
My parents actually had $200k in a 529 that they wanted to spend on me going to HYS, so they were actually mad. |
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Date: April 26th, 2015 11:58 PM Author: racy school how did you manage to get nojerbpwned from CCN? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768079) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:00 AM Author: Cerebral Pearl Bbw Marketing Idea Mediocre grades, like 40th percentile. No work experience. Short. Paedomorphic.
Getting NOOFFERED was pretty much guaranteed. This world is only for chads. There's no hope for the rest of us. |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:01 AM Author: racy school what are you doing now? doc review? are your parents paying your rent? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768102) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:10 AM Author: Cerebral Pearl Bbw Marketing Idea In theory, I am a litigator. In practice, all I do is endless research. I have almost no contact with other human beings or the actual court system. Which is to be expected, because I basically failed civil procedure.
Not quite, but basically. I live in a unit that's in a building that my parents own. So I don't pay real rent. |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:27 AM Author: swashbuckling sepia national legal warrant Surely you don't mean to imply that 75% of CCN each year are Chads? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768244) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:27 AM Author: Cerebral Pearl Bbw Marketing Idea Of course not, but the CHADS can get low grades and still get offered because of CHAD.
Also, women pretty much just get a free pass. |
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Date: January 30th, 2018 12:45 PM Author: Concupiscible Elite Cruise Ship Depressive 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#35277408) |
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Date: February 1st, 2018 3:24 AM Author: Trip blathering business firm TY for respecting my authority (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#35294134) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:29 AM Author: glittery magenta ratface how do you explain all the beta azns from the t10 who have biglaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768255) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 12:31 AM Author: Cerebral Pearl Bbw Marketing Idea Biglaw firms probably want just want them as SLAVES with literally NO chance of any career advancement. It's not exactly a win for betas if they are fattened up before they are devoured. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#27768261) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 6:30 AM Author: Hateful public bath hunting ground Jesus dude. You guys make all these excuses for yourselves. I'm freaking 5'6" and went to a non T-14 and am objectively ugly. I got good grades and have a good personality so I got a lot of good biglaw offers.
Fucking man up. |
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Date: September 28th, 2017 3:10 PM Author: Odious Property holy fuck what a find (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#34318582) |
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Date: September 28th, 2017 3:12 PM Author: Chest-beating Pit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#34318596) |
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Date: August 11th, 2023 6:27 PM Author: Irate station gaming laptop (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#46658238) |
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Date: September 28th, 2017 3:18 PM Author: Passionate at-the-ready old irish cottage Date: April 27th, 2015 6:30 AM Author: Link Gaetz*
Jesus dude. You guys make all these excuses for yourselves. I'm freaking 5'6" and went to a non T-14 and am objectively ugly. I got good grades and have a good personality so I got a lot of good biglaw offers. Fucking man up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2#27768913) |
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Date: April 27th, 2015 6:16 AM Author: titillating giraffe telephone You faggots make me laugh and then cry.
At what point are you fucks gonna say enough is enough?
These CHAD bros with 1/8 of your intellect are fucking you in the ass. Grow a fucking pair. You pussy fucking betas. You are just punching the clock and waiting for your the hour of your death. |
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Date: June 30th, 2018 9:12 PM Author: Galvanic philosopher-king shrine It would probably help if lolschools taught their students how to practice law, but that would make too much sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2864762&forum_id=2...#36342462) |
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