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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
arousing hospital really tough guy
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
Claret Filthy Library
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
Claret Filthy Library
  05/29/25
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Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obs...
Mischievous sooty boistinker business firm
  07/12/26
cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though ...
Claret Filthy Library
  07/12/26
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nyuug
  08/04/26
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nyuug
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Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
Blathering dead house toaster
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
ultramarine lay
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
Blathering dead house toaster
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
ultramarine lay
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
Blathering dead house toaster
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
excitant set
  07/01/25
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primrose provocative mad cow disease
  07/13/25
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Sienna flatulent half-breed kitty cat
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
free-loading brilliant persian
  05/29/25
cq
Aphrodisiac national security agency
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
Diverse athletic conference stag film
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
excitant set
  07/02/25
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Violent mediation crotch
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
Swashbuckling death wish
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Mind-boggling frozen point
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
jade histrionic lodge
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
self-centered base
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
fighting vigorous digit ratio dopamine
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
self-centered base
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
jade histrionic lodge
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
Apoplectic navy boltzmann church
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
Apoplectic navy boltzmann church
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: arousing hospital really tough guy

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49995176)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:04 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49995527)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:18 PM
Author: Mischievous sooty boistinker business firm

Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whites?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49995563)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:21 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library

cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though for sure

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49995567)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2026 5:50 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49997293)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 19th, 2026 9:36 PM
Author: Claret Filthy Library



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#50011037)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2026 9:58 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#50046030)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 5th, 2026 5:46 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#50047618)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: Blathering dead house toaster

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: ultramarine lay

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: Blathering dead house toaster

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: ultramarine lay

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969954)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: Blathering dead house toaster

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48971066)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: excitant set

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065184)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: primrose provocative mad cow disease



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098592)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Sienna flatulent half-breed kitty cat



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098608)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: free-loading brilliant persian

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48970037)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: Aphrodisiac national security agency

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: Diverse athletic conference stag film

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: excitant set

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: Violent mediation crotch



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: Swashbuckling death wish

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Mind-boggling frozen point

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: jade histrionic lodge

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: self-centered base

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: fighting vigorous digit ratio dopamine

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: self-centered base

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: jade histrionic lodge

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Apoplectic navy boltzmann church

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Apoplectic navy boltzmann church

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838410)