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Is Nikola Jokic a top 5 player in NBA history at this point?
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:49 PM Author: Dark prole piazza I know it's early but projecting his career even a few more years and he's right there imo. Guy puts up video game stats and makes it look effortless, it's hard to think of anyone more impactful to a basketball game in my lifetime besides Jordan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911818) |
Date: May 7th, 2025 5:54 PM Author: chocolate parlor Top 3 is set for me
MJ Bron Kareem
After that he will have to beat out some tough competition. He’s on track to be top 5 for me. I have to see a couple more seasons play out but I could certainly see him getting there.
People are really taking for granted what he’s doing. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:02 PM Author: Dark prole piazza seems like you heavily weight longevity which has a huge luck component to it, bron's career was full of moments where he was either not the best player on his team in pivotal spots and his peers only begrudgingly accepted him as the best player in the league even during his prime. same thing with kareem, got swept in the 1983 finals with a prime magic johnson on his team and the mvp of that series was the opposing center moses malone who was significantly better.
i personally cannot comment too much on kareem's era or before because i wasn't there. i know in my lifetime my top 5 is jordan, duncan, kobe, jokic, and hakeem. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse sup MJ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911868) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:40 PM Author: Galvanic fluffy hospital I agree.
where do you rank Curry? |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:55 PM Author: Light submissive principal's office sweet tailpipe He's not even a top 5 player right now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911829) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM Author: chocolate parlor He’s top 5 in legit almost every statistical category (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911835) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:03 PM Author: excitant marketing idea senate Counterpoint: statistics are faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911855) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:56 PM Author: Walnut Disturbing Garrison Famous Landscape Painting Is this the fat guy or id that the other guy?
Nobody watches NBA imo |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM Author: floppy unhinged state hes #1 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911836) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM Author: Primrose Round Eye He's a top 3 all time, easily #1 imo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911837) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:59 PM Author: shivering toaster Op is a a Joke (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911842) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:00 PM Author: Primrose Round Eye (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911844) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:03 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse The NBA does this weird thing where big men are segregated from the GOAT debate. Like why is it Jordan vs Lebron without regard to Kareem and Duncan?
5 more years and 1 more championship and Djoker solidifies his spot in the best big man of all time debate with specific focus on Shaq vs Dream vs Joker |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:05 PM Author: rebellious aphrodisiac nibblets wrinkle It's because when you look at Jokic or even Kareem you don't see an Apex Athlete you see a Really Tall Guy
That's why the majority of people will never see these guys as The Best Ever over guys like Jordan or LeBron who looked and moved like Apex Athletes |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Dark prole piazza love shaq (laker fan) but he doesn't have a place in that conversation because of how badly hakeem dominated him head-to-head.
hakeem vs. joker is an interesting debate. joker is the more impactful player and controls the game better than any big in history. but defensively he is merely good enough (underrated there but still just okay) whereas hakeem was a legit rim protector and then he'd destroy you with some of his soccer moves on offense. very few people i can think of in my lifetime that frustrated teams like hakeem. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:11 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Can you explain what you mean by Dream dominated Shaq? It's not a topic I've spent any time thinking about so maybe i'm missing something, but their game log and h2h stats don't seem to really support that.
https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/hakeem_olajuwon_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:27 PM Author: Dark prole piazza remember, it's a team sport. my perception is driven by the 1995 nba finals where the rockets beat the magic 4-0 despite winning 10 fewer games during the regular season.
shaq averaged 5 turnovers a game, was outscored each game, and hakeem had 30+ each game.
i was a kid, so maybe i'm not the perfect narrator, but i lived through it and wasn't just a box stats watcher. i just remember it was a highly touted matchup and series and the perception afterwards was that shaq was dominated by hakeem, who tired him out all series and chipped away at the narrative that shaq was unstoppable. and then of course the usual affecting both sides of the ball thing that shaq could never do as effectively.
is this unfair to shaq? possibly, but these debates are so close that unfortunately you sometimes have to have imperfect tiebreakers between players. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 7:01 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48912021) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:14 PM Author: cerebral generalized bond shaq was absolutely dominant and changed the game plan, but so many of his good years were with kobe or dwyane wade. given his awful FT shooting i just don't know if he could've totally carried a team in the same way other guys do on the top 5 list (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911880) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:15 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Joker has jamal murray. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911884) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:20 PM Author: sable travel guidebook AARON GORDON you mean. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911894) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:26 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Love that guy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911913) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:19 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse I think you should look at the 2000 NBA finals stats. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911892) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:34 PM Author: cerebral generalized bond you're absolutely right, that was a truly dominant performance. you aren't stopping him with rik smits and dale davis. i totally get why he's in the convo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911950) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:02 AM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig It's not weird, they're not as good as the guards
They're not expected to have the ball in their hands when the game is on the line and they definitely don't take as many game winning shots
The big men pad their stats in the regular season and rely on guards to win hardware
Kareem couldn't do it without Magic, Shaq without Kobe/Dwade, Duncan without Ginobiki/Parker, Hakeem without a stable of HoF/clutch scorers
Jokic is the only one who did it without a super guard and he's obviously the GOAT big man without even winning more hardware and it's not even remotely debatable
And the reason for that is because Jokic plays like a guard
HTFH! |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:17 AM Author: Maize bearded party of the first part It's not a big man thing. Jordan couldn't do it without pippen, LeBron couldn't do it without Wade or kyrie or AD. Jokic is one of the only guys at any position to win a championship without another legit star. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48912815) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:53 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse This is one of the dumbest posts in xo history.
"Guards are better than centers so a big man could never be the GOAT except for Jokic because he plays like a guard"
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:56 AM Author: vigorous slap-happy church I used to think that nba GOAT discussions should be broken down by position- guards, forwards, centers, right?
But now I think playmaker vs pure scorer might be a better way to look at it. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 8:12 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Like in this sampling of players who would be in which group:
jason kidd, kareem, carmelo anthony, tim duncan, ray allen
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:22 AM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig "Wahhh this is the dumbest post ever"
*proceeds to post something even dumber*
*is a fat and retarded bitch who NEVER posts anything intelligent*
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:31 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Hold on, you're the guy that knocked Hakeem saying he only won because he had a team of all-stars (lmao) and Duncan because he had *checks notes* tony parker and manu ginobili.
BUT Jordan having Pippen and Rodman is just kind of like NBD. MJ really did it all on his own with no help and that's why guards are categorically better than centers at basketball.
That's literally the argument you made. It is unbelievably stupid AND retarded.
Now, JCM who I respect as a basketball scholar is suggesting that maybe we should move away from positional categorizations for player comparisons, which I think is an interesting idea, and I just want to understand more her thought process.
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:38 AM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig No that isn't what I said dumb shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913421) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:54 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse You said bigmen pad their stats in the reg season and rely on guards to win hardware (i.e. championships). You then listed Hakeem and Tim Duncan as examples to prove this point.
Seriously holy shit this has to be one of the worst takes of all time.
here's Duncan's career NBA finals stats: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/tim-duncan-stats-in-the-finals
here's Dream's career NBA finals stats: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/hakeem-olajuwon-stats-in-nba-finals
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:05 PM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig So to disprove my hypothesis about regular vs postseason big men stats, big men not having the ball in their hands in meaningful games with time running out, or not making plays on their own outside of a scripted play, not scoring in crunch time or generally being clutch and putting the game in their own hands when everything is on the line, you cherry picked Finals Statistics from Tim Duncan, who notably did not record a definitive game-winning or buzzer-beating shot in an NBA Finals game in his career and was only the MVP in 2 out of his 6 finals appearances--and Hakeem whose only 2 finals appearances were complete routs vs clearly inferior squads?
Christ you're even more fucking retarded than I ever imagined |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:08 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse i posted their NBA finals stats showing that both men dominated in the finals. Yes, i think this disproves your hypothesis that "big men pad their stats in the regular season while guards win championships."
Is your point that the only scenario that matters in basketball is "down by 1 with 5 seconds left"?
So Ron Artest, Steve Kerr and Andre Igoudala are ahead of Hakeem, Duncan and Kareem on the all time list? |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:06 PM Author: Violent Locus Boltzmann Lebron is not top 5 thats for sure (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911864) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Dark prole piazza agreed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911867) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:42 AM Author: Maize bearded party of the first part All the same people who think LeBron is not top 5 also think kobe is 2 all time. So we can safely disregard their opinions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913220) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:43 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913223) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:32 AM Author: Primrose Round Eye cr take
kobe > lebron though |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:50 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse I liked watching Kobe play more than lebron. He had an unrivaled offensive arsenal. He was a more sensational scorer and seemed to hit big shots in big moments. Lebron used his size, strength and explosiveness to bully his way to the rim. Sure there were jaw dropping moments but a lot of his scoring in his prime is using 1,000 picks to get some space, receive the ball and bully his way to the rim.
But it's hard to argue Kobe had a better career or was a more effective basketball player than Lebron. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:09 PM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig Lol this is even more retarded than your other takes
Kobe's 2 titles without Shaq are light years beyond LeBron's capabilities |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:26 PM Author: Violent Locus Boltzmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913880) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:27 PM Author: Dark prole piazza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913896) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:49 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Kobe 5 championships, 2 Finals MVPs
Lebron 4 championships, 4 Finals MVPs
Here's their career stat comparison:
https://stathead.com/basketball/vs/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james
Here's their head-to-head comparison:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/kobe_bryant_vs_lebron_james.htm
Yeah I'm the retard. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:54 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Do you watch basketball? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914110) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 2:11 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Yeah, a lot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914250) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 3:37 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Doesn't seem like it based on you constantly pulling out stats both here and on the Olajuwon/Shaq debate.
Lebron's stats are unparalleled, obviously. He should be praised for his longevity, consistency, and his playmaking.
But he was not nearly the transcendent player his stats would suggest that he was. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 3:41 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Why? i'm pulling them to counter the idiotic argument that "centers are inherently worse basketball players than guards because they pad their stats during the regular season while guards win championships".
That same poster then cited to Olajuwon and Duncan to support his argument.
Honestly, I'm surprised you just let that slide considering you seem to think you are an NBA MFE.
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:22 PM Author: Dark prole piazza I was referring to you citing H2H stats to suggest that Hakeem did not in fact dominate Shaq, when persons of our vintage should know about the 1995 finals having lived through a generational beatdown. It was a bit shocking to see you feign ignorance there. I understand younger millennials and zoomers trying to rewrite history with dumb hot takes but Olajuwon dominating Shaq that year is a well-known thing.
Same thing here: citing Lebron and Kobe's respective stats is not the argument anyone is having here. It's reminiscent of all of these mostly white nerds that think they have an edge with analytics but don't actually have any experience playing the sport or watching the games. There's a reason that far more actual NBA players since about 2003 cite Kobe and not Lebron as an influence and role model.
I think you're managing the debate with Cowghost admirably. What he's saying doesn't make any sense. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:27 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse I didn’t “feign” anything. Stats aren’t irrelevant but they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a knicks fan and suffered through 2 straight years of crushing playoff losses in ‘94 and ‘95. Lol @ thinking that because I don’t remember the ‘95 finals it means I don’t watch basketball. I listen to tons of basketball podcasts and consume a ton of nba content. I never hear anyone talk about the ‘95 finals.
And to your point about Kobe and LeBron, Kobe is more influential for the reason I stated above. He had an unparalleled offensive arsenal and had maybe the most aesthetic game of all time. Of course people are going to try to emulate that just as Kobe emulated Jordan.
But there absolutely is not a consensus amongst their contemporaries that Kobe is higher on the all time list than LeBron.
This was an obnoxious post from you and I guarantee I played sports at a higher level than you. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:58 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Lebron took the easier road whenever he could. When he left for Miami, to when that run was over and he immediately hopped over to a loaded Cavs team, to suddenly no more Kyrie and he hopped over to a young Lakers squad and immediately began lobbying for AD. The only reason he stuck around in LA during the recent leaner years is because his kids are in high school and he wanted to put down roots. And you can see the underhanded shit he does with the roster every year even now to where we give his dummy son a guaranteed 4 year deal.
Everywhere he's gone, he hasn't done it on his own. He has never truly faced adversity. He has never shown a willingness to play through injury.
He was in the East while the West was a bloodbath and he coasted to all those consecutive finals.
The most impressive thing Lebron ever did, at the absolute peak of his powers, was beat that 73 win Warriors team in the finals. But Kyrie played great too and hit the game winning 3 in game 7.
Sounds like you were paying attention so you should know all this.
The reason he gets put in those debates with Kobe as the GOAT of that era is not because Kobe's game was more aesthetic or that their stats are comparable. Kobe was so much more than all of that to a whole generation. Lebron's stats are better but the arc of their careers and their respective personalities could not be any more different, and that's why people defer to their instincts in choosing Kobe over Lebron. Because it's not even close when it comes to stats so you posting them makes you look kind of tone-deaf, no offense. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:41 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Tl;dr: “Ahhso Kobe supastudy basketbarrr he wolk so haaalllld. Dat why he make so many difficurrt shot. Kobe numba won just like Haaaalllvalllld.” (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915319) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:30 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Kobe was the second best player on the Lakers in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. Pau was top 5 in win shares both seasons Kobe was something like 7 in 08-09 and 30 in 09-10. Kobe was awesome at making very difficult long 2s ie the worst possible shot selection, but a skill that vastly increases in importance in close playoff games, especially for teams that are built around a single ball dominant scorer. This is why many dumb/casual/Asian/Lakers fans wildly overrate Kobe. In reality he was the Fukuyama of the NBA, a pathetic Gen Xer worshipping a boomer, insisting that Jordan was the end of history. Meanwhile he lost regularly to the euro style ball movement and shooting based beautiful game teams like the Spurs and Warriors and never won unless he had a super elite big who he would then antagonize while self-aggrandizing with the help of his extremely stupid fans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915292) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:36 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Lol @ talking about win shares, which does not account for a player's defensive contributions nor his ability to draw defenses. The reason Pau's win share was higher was because the entire defensive scheme was designed to stop Kobe. And Kobe was All-NBA first team defense from 2005 to 2011.
Please refrain from talking about things you know nothing about. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:50 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Pau was top 5 in win shares despite playing with the most relentless ballhog of all time who broke usage records during those seasons, so if anything win shares badly underrates Pau. Lol at “first team all defense” when Pau was ahead of Kobe both seasons in defensive win shares (and of course there were 5 centers ahead of him because centers are much more important players on defense). Pau was third team all NBA both seasons taking 12 shots a game. At worst you would say that Pau was an obviously super elite top all star and top 10 player in the league both seasons and every other player at that level had usage that was 2x Pau’s, so he was BY FAR the most efficient all NBA player in the league. We know for a fact that Kobe had zero chance to win his last two rings without Pau because for the three seasons he played between Shaq and Pau his teams were dogshit and barely made the playoffs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915340) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:55 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Win shares badly underrate Pau because he was taking 13 shots a game playing with a relentless ballhog.... which is in line with the 13 shots per game he was taking in Memphis without that relentless ballhog as the team's primary offensive weapon.
Maybe sit this one out little boy. The media members that voted Kobe all-defense first team 9 times after examining his body of work for that particular year were all wrong and in fact Pau was the better defensive player. Clown shit. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 8:15 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Pau was objectively a better and more important part of the Lakers defense in 09 and 10 championship seasons. The fact that you’re appealing to “all defense first team” as your argument for Kobe is utterly shameful and embarrassing. Kobe shot a below NBA average eFG% both seasons, and scored 7 more ppg on 8 more shots per game. Pau was also a top 10 rebounder both seasons while playing alongside Odom who was top 20. The best argument for Kobe as the best player on the Lakers those seasons is how much defenses keyed on stopping him and how many extremely difficult shots he made. Those are not actually arguments that he made winning plays, though, they are the opposite. They underscore that he was an effective (albeit inefficient) scorer despite regularly making bad, stupid decisions on offense that decreased his teams chances of winning. Pau was an elite passing big man who could work on the perimeter and above the nail/elbow, so he was an ideal fit to draw shot blockers away and make Kobe’s life easier when he would score off the dribble and in/near the paint. It’s admittedly a more provocative claim to say that Pau was actually better than Kobe, though that is what advanced stats say. Nonetheless, it should be obvious to anyone who pays attention to basketball, let alone anyone who watched those seasons/playoff years and isn’t retarded, that Kobe MASSIVELY benefitted from playing with Pau who was a top 10 player in the league both seasons and there is zero chance that Kobe wins rings 4 and 5 without Pau. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915420) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:51 PM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig I don't care if Kobe was the 3rd best player on the team. If you swapped him with Lebron they wouldn't get past the 2nd round (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916012) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 2:14 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend lol Lebron was easily the better player both seasons. His game was uglier and less skillful, but he scored more points more efficiently, had 4+ assists more per game, 3+ more rebounds per game, guarded more positions/was more switchable and would have been terrifying in any two man actions with Pau and shooters on the other side. If the Lakers had called up the Cavs immediately after the Pau trade and offered Kobe for Bron straight up the Cavs would have laughed and hung up immediately and if the Cavs had called the Lakers and offered the same the trade would have been processed by the league office within minutes afterward. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48917282) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 4:02 PM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig Yep Lebron was so good that he led TEAM USA to a bronze medal
He also needed Ray Allen to overcome his title drought when Wade and Bosh weren't enough for him (and even then, needed MANY lucky ass shots by OTHER players to get over the hump) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 6:16 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48917931) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:29 PM Author: greedy pale box office associate With at least 2 more championships, he may sneak into the top 10 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48911931) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:32 AM Author: vigorous slap-happy church I had to think about this for a while before responding.
There are a lot of factors that go into ranking the very top players.
Skill level (this is not the same as stats), competitive drive/killer instinct, # of championships won, individual stats, domination relative to peers, leadership, longevity, being able to play both side of the ball, etc.
He definitely is in the top 5 for offensive statistics compared to peers as he dominates in ppg, rebounds, and assists in a way that's never been done in the modern game. The difference in the Nuggets offense with him vs without him is absolutely insane. An argument can be made as an extension of those stats that he is among the most skilled players of all time. He is definitely one of the most skilled big men of all time, at least offensively. Assessing his defense is difficult because he handles SO MUCH of the workload on offense that I think his defense is relatively undeveloped. But certainly someone with his IQ could be better at defense than he is currently. (Obviously, offense matters more than defense, but I dont think we can completely ignore defense when discussing GOATs)
I think it's possible that he ends up in the top 5 players of all time, but it's really hard to rank someone in the middle of their prime.
So, idk, I'd put him probably in the top 20 overall of all time currently and maybe in the top 10, but I'm hesitant to move him into the top five overall at the moment. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:55 AM Author: Dark prole piazza Good response, thanks. Yeah, as I said in the op it takes a bit of extrapolation to put him in the top 5 currently but even 3 more years at this level and he’s there. And if they somehow win this year—and really, only OKC is the main opponent standing between them and that goal suddenly—I think this narrative will quickly begin taking life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913272) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:41 AM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig The top 5 is largely measured in titles and MVPs
He would need to win like 3 more MVPs and 2 more titles to lock it up |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:22 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church i agree that to make it to the top 5, you need the full combo.
you need the skill, the stats, the dominance relative to your peers, the ability to play both sides of the ball, the accolades, and the titles.
based on this, i do NOT think jokic falls in the top 5. and i fucking LOVE jokic. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:25 PM Author: Dark prole piazza I think if you're sufficiently different you can get a pass, which is why many people consider Steph Curry to be a top 15 player when his stats, etc., don't support it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914797) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:27 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church top 15 is different from top 5, though.
and curry literally changed the game permanently. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:37 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Like I said, I know it's early. He's in my top 12 though, which is:
MJ
Russell
Kareem
Bron
Hakeem
Kobe
Jokic
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Wilt
Shaq
So he's comfortably in the top 15 above the likes of Oscar Robertson, Durant, and Jerry West, and honestly it's a pretty easy inclusion into the top 10 even. I'd easily choose Jokic over Duncan or Shaq. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:42 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church thats not a bad list
id personally rank kobe lower and bird higher.
bill russell is fucking tough because its such an older generation. but i wont argue with him at #2 in a ranking that heavily favors results (for obvious reasons) even though i dont agree
kareem DEFINITELY deserves his spot, as does hakeem imo
alright im just going to re-slot your list with mine and lets discuss further.
MJ
Kareem
Bron
Russell
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Kobe
Jokic
Duncan
Shaq
Ugh, i'm sure i will change my mind again in 5 minutes, but look at my list and give me feedback.
*edit * and honestly, looking at that list, i'd put curry above shaq, ngl |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:53 PM Author: Dark prole piazza I just don't like putting Bird or Magic that high because both only played 13 seasons, and two of those seasons for Bird he played 6 and 45 games respectively. I think both of those guys get a bump from playing on the sport's two marquee franchises and on teams that were absolutely loaded to the gills. Neither had to navigate the lulls of rosters in flux and both retired before their decline really took hold, which helps their perception imo.
Overall a solid list though. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:59 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church in terms of pure skill, bird was one of the best offensive forces of all time
magic literally reinvented the point guard position
one of my GOAT basketball quotes from Pat Riley:
“If I needed someone to take a shot to win the game, I’d pick Michael Jordan. But if my life depended on it, I’d take Larry Bird.”
I'd be willing to move Magic down a bit, but no more than 3-4 slots. Bird I insist stays where he's at. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 5:01 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church actually maybe wilt should go up a few (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914911) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 5:07 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church here. i chugged 2 drinks, re-assessed my personal biases, and this is my top 12 list.
critique away:
MJ Kareem Bron Wilt Hakeem Russell Bird Kobe Magic Duncan Curry Jokic
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:06 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Most would not agree with putting Hakeem over Russell but I agree with you. The sport just wasn’t as competitive back then—but all of his contemporaries talk about Russell like he was some otherworldly figure and openly choose him over Wilt, whose numbers are far better.
Curry over Shaq is interesting. I disagree with it, as Steph was never as dominant and benefited tremendously from playing for one coach and Draymond Green. Shaq just overpowered teams on his own. And Steph’s counting stats just aren’t impressive enough comparatively, I think your list suffers from overweighting stats when you put Wilt over Russell but underweighting stats when you choose to include Curry at all. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:24 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church i will explain to you my ranking re: curry and shaq
you are welcome to agree or disagree but i hope that you respond substantively
curry literally changed the entire game with his 3 point shooting. i mean, the game is just not the fucking same now. i can expound but i dont feel like i need to as you seem smart enough to "get it". what curry did requires REALLY FUCKING HIGH LEVELS OF SKILL.
shaq, in comparison, wasn't great in terms of skill, he was just physically extremely dominant. ive always been a shaq hater, frankly. my assessment of him goes back to the list of factors i think that make a top 5 or top 10 players. straight up, i dont think shaq was ever "legendary", he was just a physical force of nature. ok, i'll put him in my top 20 as a results-based ranking, but i will never put him in my personal top ten in terms of skill, even with a fucking gun to my head.
i look forward to further discussion about this!
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:04 PM Author: Dark prole piazza Eh. At the level we're talking about you have to take replicability into consideration. Shaq replicated what he did in Orlando both in LA and in Miami. I'm highly doubtful Curry would've had the same career had he played elsewhere. He's a system guy. The system deserves arguably more credit for changing the game. On a different team Steph could've been an elite spot-up shooter like his dad and not much more. When you break his game down you're essentially getting shooting and handles. Not much more there, he depends on an entire system that is designed expressly to get him open with an intelligent as fuck coach and a savvy as fuck running mate who doesn't demand the ball at all and is entirely invested in getting Steph open. Do you think he would do that elsewhere?
There isn't anyone else on your list who was as dependent on a system as Steph. And again, the counting stats just aren't there. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:07 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church ok so
which do you think takes more skill:
shooting from 30+ feet
dunking
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:18 PM Author: Dark prole piazza In a vacuum, of course shooting is harder. But being able to overpower the biggest athletes in a sport full of giants, and to do it with agility (Magic years), soft hands (Laker years), and strength (Miami years) takes a lot more talent than just dunking the ball.
You'll note that Steph "changing the game" coincided with an era of some really shitty players at the center position. Does Steph get credit for that too? We're finally at the point where there's great talent at the center position again, with guys like Jokic, Wemby, Sengun, KAT, and even Embiid is great when he plays. I think that whole narrative is a bit overblown. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:29 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church Curry is far more skilled than shaq, basically (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915132) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 8:26 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend CR analysis boomers and elder Gen X overrate Bird and Magic because of the role they played in marketing the league. Bill Simmons will actually admit this pretty freely when he gets going making his cases for both. Magic especially is a tough sell as top 10 all time. As you mentioned he would have been a nobody without all the HoFers he passed to finishing those opportunities. Bird is around KD’s level pushing the top 10. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915445) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 2:29 AM Author: vigorous slap-happy church i agree magic might be overrated but i very strongly disagree re: bird. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916177) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 8:38 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse "Magic Johnson would have been a nobody" lmao. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916436) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 8:37 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Brother that was just the times. Few guys came out of college early, so their careers started in the NBA at 22/23 and they played until their early-mid 30s.
Jordan "only" played 13 full seasons as well. So did Oscar Robertson, Walt Frazier, and Jerry West.
And lol @ knocking each guy because they were on great teams. Did you consider that they had to beat the other guy's loaded to the gills team to win championships?
Have you listened to what other former players who actually played against either guy say about them?
You are so arrogantly stupid it hurts tbh. "Yeah meh Magic and Bird were overrated, not impressed" lol. |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 10:04 AM Author: Dark prole piazza Jordan played 15 seasons and scored over 30,000 points. If you’re going by “full seasons” Bird is at 11, generously speaking. 21k points. No one is saying he doesn’t belong in this conversation, just that top 6 is very very high for both him and Magic.
You got gaped by like 4 different people in this thread, for a guy who supposedly loves basketball you know very little. And that’s before your weird insecure swipe about playing sports at a higher level than me which I ignored. |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 3:25 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse Dealing with you ITT now shows why so many people on this board dislike you. You're arrogant and dishonest.
1) Jordan played 15 seasons: Jordan played 11 full seasons with the bulls. He got hurt in his 2nd year and missed all but 18 games and only played 17 games in 1995 when he came back from baseball. Magic played 11 full seasons with the Lakers and 1 half season. Are we supposed to think his legacy would be affected if he played further into his 30s?
The question you have to answer then is: is MJ's legacy diminished if he doesn't suit up for the Wizards? Unless you are a complete fucking retard the answer is a resounding "no" undermining your argument about "only 13 seasons".
2) You called me a white nerd who never played sports because i cited to some very basic stats. I responded by saying I most likely played sports at a higher level than you. Now, like a woman, you want to try to call me weird as if I brought that up. Fuck off.
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Date: May 9th, 2025 3:59 PM Author: Dark prole piazza You're in your feelings because you got destroyed by 4 different posters ITT, this is no longer fun or productive nor do I want to debate you any further you abject fucking loser lol. I know you have to compensate for being a fat dork who plays with knives in his spare time but I said you tone-deafly posting career stats multiple times in this thread was 'reminiscent' of white dorks who speak with an air of confidence but don't actually have any experience playing the sport, not that I wanted to compare my athletic chops with yours (btw you wouldn't win that either) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48917551) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 5:02 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse No one destroyed me about anything. You even conceded that upthread. Who else is left? JCM who claims Shaq is actually a bad basketball player? Lmao.
Noted you didn’t respond to any point I made because you know I fucking killed you. yup you’re just taking the high road gracefully walking away. Dumbass bitch Kobe dick rider. |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 5:04 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48917797) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:25 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church i genuinely think that jokic is in the top 20, but i cannot move him to the top 10 or top 5 until his accolades and accomplishments match his skill. not because i dont think he's "great" enough because i absolutely fucking do, but because at the level of the top 10, you need EVERYTHING to line up and he just hasn't yet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914796) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:57 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse If he retired now, he's not in the top 10. He needs at least a few more years.
I think the comparison between Jokic, Shaq and Dream is going to be a big debate in a few years for a lot of the reasons you said.
Jokicmos will argue his unprecedented offensive prowess, Shaqmos will argue his dominance on both ends of the Court, Dreammos will argue that he's some combination. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:21 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church you're the king of terrible basketball takes made in bad faith, so let me address your comments
Shaq- Shaq was successful because he was huge and a freak of nature, NOT because he was actually "good". I don't even have him in my top 10. and honestly, i look down on people that do. the dude was just big and scary and plowed his way to the basket.
Hakeem- IMO Hakeem is the best big of the "modern" era. Beautiful footwork, great scoring, led his teams to titles when the Bulls were defunct, and AMAZING defensively. Hakeem is LIGHT YEARS ahead of shaq.
Stop arguing shaq is a top 10 player, it literally makes me respect you less. :)
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:21 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Neither Shaq nor Hakeem is top 10 hth. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915272) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:17 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse “Shaq isn’t even good he’s just big!” Is the type of retarded thing I would say as a 10 year old knicks fan who idolized Ewing.
1) it’s not true. Shaq had incredible footwork and was insanely agile for a guy his size.
2) this isn’t a pound for pound list. Having physical advantages like being born big or strong is part of sports. If his physical gifts give him an advantage, you don’t get to just discount them to say he’s not actually good. I
Shaq can certainly be outside any top 10 list. If we are just talking about centers, he’s at worst 5th all time behind kareem, wilt, bill Russell and Dream. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:19 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend A center who is not an elite defender is always going to have a much lower ceiling v all the ones that were. Prime Hakeem and the Rockets would be an insanely difficult matchup for Jokic because he would be helpless against Hakeem (just like David Robinson was despite being way more athletic, taller/longer and much better overall defensively), but Hakeem could handle Jokic 1 on 1. This is also why guys like Russell, Duncan and Anthony Davis are vastly underrated by fan perception and overall public opinion v their actual output on the court as reflected in a wide variety of advanced stats. Offensive counting stats are just generally overrated.
All that said, if Jokic has five more years like the last five and can win another ring or two he is in the top 10 conversation pushing guys like Duncan and Russell because at that point he would have put together a top 2-3 all time offensive resume, so his mid defense becomes easier to look past. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:16 PM Author: Claret Pocket Flask "lower ceiling"
dude he won a title and finals mvp lol |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:22 PM Author: Sexy orchid home organic girlfriend Um huh? So did Jaylen Brown. Duncan won 5 and three finals MVPs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913856) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:18 PM Author: Territorial meetinghouse cr. that was my thought process as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48913823) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:59 PM Author: mauve titillating stock car kareem? lol, no wilt. yes. indisputable goat. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 5:16 PM Author: Clear tanning salon I hate sports and particularly NBA but would be lying if I said this thread isn't fascinating. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48914954) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:37 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915152) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:55 PM Author: Galvanic fluffy hospital I'm pretty formulaic in this
PER during the player's top 12 seasons (gives you their prime stats), MVPs, and Finals MVP awards. Give each about equal weight.
GOAT Tier 1. Air 2. King 3. Skyhook
Baby GOAT Tier 4. Magic 5. Legend 6. Wilt 7. Fundamental
Gamechangers 8. Shaq 9. Chef 10. KD 11. Freak
Legends 12. Dream 13. Bean |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:57 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church kill yourself
:) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 6:58 PM Author: Galvanic fluffy hospital Jokic can't hang yet. Career is too short. He can crack the top 5 at this rate though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915206) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:01 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:06 PM Author: Galvanic fluffy hospital What are we comparing, career greatness or literal best player to have on the floor in their absolute prime? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48915226) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:07 PM Author: vigorous slap-happy church im just being an aggressive argumentative drunk cunt. its all for fun :)
scroll up :) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 4:03 AM Author: Rose laughsome pozpig Tell me more about this formula that puts Giannis above Jokic or anywhere near the t10 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916218) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 8:28 AM Author: Territorial meetinghouse We're basically immune to Giannis's greatness at this point.
Their offensive skillsets are obviously different. Giannis is a 7 foot slasher with freak athleticism who can shoot from range. He's put up 9 or 10 consecutive seasons of MVP level numbers, has 1 championship with Finals MVP and 2 league MVP awards.
Jokic unquestionably has a more dynamic offensive game but is still a few seasons behind Giannis as far as longevity in his prime, but he also doesn't have nearly the defensive accolades Giannis has. He's got a DPOY and is a perennial all-defense player elite rim protector.
Yeah honestly if their careers ended today, it'd be hard to make a case for Jokic > Giannis unless you just put a huge premium on novelty or personal preference. |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 5:06 AM Author: Jet Racy Striped Hyena GOAT conversation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916229) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 10:42 AM Author: Boyish roast beef cuck he's got to win more hardware and elevate the games of those around him. I'm not saying he doesn't do the latter, but sometimes he falls quiet and the nuggets just fade away, like he'd rather be playing with his horses or something. Westbrook had amazing numbers too. On the surface you'd think he's as good as jordan, but he can't win. This OKC series is truly a test. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2...id.#48916731) |
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Date: May 9th, 2025 5:35 PM Author: Clear tanning salon "elevate the games of those around him." The lib mind, folx. |