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Is Nikola Jokic a top 5 player in NBA history at this point?
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:49 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad I know it's early but projecting his career even a few more years and he's right there imo. Guy puts up video game stats and makes it look effortless, it's hard to think of anyone more impactful to a basketball game in my lifetime besides Jordan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911818) |
Date: May 7th, 2025 5:54 PM Top 3 is set for me
MJ Bron Kareem
After that he will have to beat out some tough competition. He’s on track to be top 5 for me. I have to see a couple more seasons play out but I could certainly see him getting there.
People are really taking for granted what he’s doing. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:02 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad seems like you heavily weight longevity which has a huge luck component to it, bron's career was full of moments where he was either not the best player on his team in pivotal spots and his peers only begrudgingly accepted him as the best player in the league even during his prime. same thing with kareem, got swept in the 1983 finals with a prime magic johnson on his team and the mvp of that series was the opposing center moses malone who was significantly better.
i personally cannot comment too much on kareem's era or before because i wasn't there. i know in my lifetime my top 5 is jordan, duncan, kobe, jokic, and hakeem. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: mountain cat sup MJ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911868) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:55 PM Author: tarrifs He's not even a top 5 player right now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911829) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM He’s top 5 in legit almost every statistical category (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911835) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:03 PM Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this Counterpoint: statistics are faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911855) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:56 PM Author: middle aged face diapered woman in airport lounge Is this the fat guy or id that the other guy?
Nobody watches NBA imo |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM Author: Covid was a Hoax hes #1 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911836) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:58 PM Author: Parashat Kedoshim He's a top 3 all time, easily #1 imo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911837) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 5:59 PM Author: cowgod ( ) Op is a a Joke (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911842) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:00 PM Author: Parashat Kedoshim (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911844) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:03 PM Author: mountain cat The NBA does this weird thing where big men are segregated from the GOAT debate. Like why is it Jordan vs Lebron without regard to Kareem and Duncan?
5 more years and 1 more championship and Djoker solidifies his spot in the best big man of all time debate with specific focus on Shaq vs Dream vs Joker |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:05 PM Author: hook nosed jew melting as latin mass organ plays It's because when you look at Jokic or even Kareem you don't see an Apex Athlete you see a Really Tall Guy
That's why the majority of people will never see these guys as The Best Ever over guys like Jordan or LeBron who looked and moved like Apex Athletes |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad love shaq (laker fan) but he doesn't have a place in that conversation because of how badly hakeem dominated him head-to-head.
hakeem vs. joker is an interesting debate. joker is the more impactful player and controls the game better than any big in history. but defensively he is merely good enough (underrated there but still just okay) whereas hakeem was a legit rim protector and then he'd destroy you with some of his soccer moves on offense. very few people i can think of in my lifetime that frustrated teams like hakeem. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:11 PM Author: mountain cat Can you explain what you mean by Dream dominated Shaq? It's not a topic I've spent any time thinking about so maybe i'm missing something, but their game log and h2h stats don't seem to really support that.
https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/hakeem_olajuwon_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:27 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad remember, it's a team sport. my perception is driven by the 1995 nba finals where the rockets beat the magic 4-0 despite winning 10 fewer games during the regular season.
shaq averaged 5 turnovers a game, was outscored each game, and hakeem had 30+ each game.
i was a kid, so maybe i'm not the perfect narrator, but i lived through it and wasn't just a box stats watcher. i just remember it was a highly touted matchup and series and the perception afterwards was that shaq was dominated by hakeem, who tired him out all series and chipped away at the narrative that shaq was unstoppable. and then of course the usual affecting both sides of the ball thing that shaq could never do as effectively.
is this unfair to shaq? possibly, but these debates are so close that unfortunately you sometimes have to have imperfect tiebreakers between players. |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 7:01 PM Author: mountain cat ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48912021) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:14 PM Author: Kenneth Play shaq was absolutely dominant and changed the game plan, but so many of his good years were with kobe or dwyane wade. given his awful FT shooting i just don't know if he could've totally carried a team in the same way other guys do on the top 5 list (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911880) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:15 PM Author: mountain cat Joker has jamal murray. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911884) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:20 PM Author: Emotionally + Physically Abusive Ex-Husband AARON GORDON you mean. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911894) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:26 PM Author: mountain cat Love that guy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911913) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:19 PM Author: mountain cat I think you should look at the 2000 NBA finals stats. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911892) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:34 PM Author: Kenneth Play you're absolutely right, that was a truly dominant performance. you aren't stopping him with rik smits and dale davis. i totally get why he's in the convo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911950) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 4:02 AM Author: Cowghost It's not weird, they're not as good as the guards
They're not expected to have the ball in their hands when the game is on the line and they definitely don't take as many game winning shots
The big men pad their stats in the regular season and rely on guards to win hardware
Kareem couldn't do it without Magic, Shaq without Kobe/Dwade, Duncan without Ginobiki/Parker, Hakeem without a stable of HoF/clutch scorers
Jokic is the only one who did it without a super guard and he's obviously the GOAT big man without even winning more hardware and it's not even remotely debatable
And the reason for that is because Jokic plays like a guard
HTFH! |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:17 AM Author: OBVIOUSLY a negotiating tactic (High Constitutional Moment) It's not a big man thing. Jordan couldn't do it without pippen, LeBron couldn't do it without Wade or kyrie or AD. Jokic is one of the only guys at any position to win a championship without another legit star. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48912815) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:53 AM Author: mountain cat This is one of the dumbest posts in xo history.
"Guards are better than centers so a big man could never be the GOAT except for Jokic because he plays like a guard"
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:56 AM Author: caitlin clark I used to think that nba GOAT discussions should be broken down by position- guards, forwards, centers, right?
But now I think playmaker vs pure scorer might be a better way to look at it. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 8:12 AM Author: mountain cat Like in this sampling of players who would be in which group:
jason kidd, kareem, carmelo anthony, tim duncan, ray allen
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:22 AM Author: Cowghost "Wahhh this is the dumbest post ever"
*proceeds to post something even dumber*
*is a fat and retarded bitch who NEVER posts anything intelligent*
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:31 AM Author: mountain cat Hold on, you're the guy that knocked Hakeem saying he only won because he had a team of all-stars (lmao) and Duncan because he had *checks notes* tony parker and manu ginobili.
BUT Jordan having Pippen and Rodman is just kind of like NBD. MJ really did it all on his own with no help and that's why guards are categorically better than centers at basketball.
That's literally the argument you made. It is unbelievably stupid AND retarded.
Now, JCM who I respect as a basketball scholar is suggesting that maybe we should move away from positional categorizations for player comparisons, which I think is an interesting idea, and I just want to understand more her thought process.
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:38 AM Author: Cowghost No that isn't what I said dumb shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913421) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:54 AM Author: mountain cat You said bigmen pad their stats in the reg season and rely on guards to win hardware (i.e. championships). You then listed Hakeem and Tim Duncan as examples to prove this point.
Seriously holy shit this has to be one of the worst takes of all time.
here's Duncan's career NBA finals stats: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/tim-duncan-stats-in-the-finals
here's Dream's career NBA finals stats: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/hakeem-olajuwon-stats-in-nba-finals
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:05 PM Author: Cowghost So to disprove my hypothesis about regular vs postseason big men stats, big men not having the ball in their hands in meaningful games with time running out, or not making plays on their own outside of a scripted play, not scoring in crunch time or generally being clutch and putting the game in their own hands when everything is on the line, you cherry picked Finals Statistics from Tim Duncan, who notably did not record a definitive game-winning or buzzer-beating shot in an NBA Finals game in his career and was only the MVP in 2 out of his 6 finals appearances--and Hakeem whose only 2 finals appearances were complete routs vs clearly inferior squads?
Christ you're even more fucking retarded than I ever imagined |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:08 PM Author: mountain cat i posted their NBA finals stats showing that both men dominated in the finals. Yes, i think this disproves your hypothesis that "big men pad their stats in the regular season while guards win championships."
Is your point that the only scenario that matters in basketball is "down by 1 with 5 seconds left"?
So Ron Artest, Steve Kerr and Andre Igoudala are ahead of Hakeem, Duncan and Kareem on the all time list? |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:06 PM Author: Traditional Latin ass Lebron is not top 5 thats for sure (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911864) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad agreed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911867) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:42 AM Author: OBVIOUSLY a negotiating tactic (High Constitutional Moment) All the same people who think LeBron is not top 5 also think kobe is 2 all time. So we can safely disregard their opinions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913220) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:43 AM Author: mountain cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913223) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:32 AM Author: Parashat Kedoshim cr take
kobe > lebron though |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:50 AM Author: mountain cat I liked watching Kobe play more than lebron. He had an unrivaled offensive arsenal. He was a more sensational scorer and seemed to hit big shots in big moments. Lebron used his size, strength and explosiveness to bully his way to the rim. Sure there were jaw dropping moments but a lot of his scoring in his prime is using 1,000 picks to get some space, receive the ball and bully his way to the rim.
But it's hard to argue Kobe had a better career or was a more effective basketball player than Lebron. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:09 PM Author: Cowghost Lol this is even more retarded than your other takes
Kobe's 2 titles without Shaq are light years beyond LeBron's capabilities |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:26 PM Author: Traditional Latin ass (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913880) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:27 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913896) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:49 PM Author: mountain cat Kobe 5 championships, 2 Finals MVPs
Lebron 4 championships, 4 Finals MVPs
Here's their career stat comparison:
https://stathead.com/basketball/vs/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james
Here's their head-to-head comparison:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/kobe_bryant_vs_lebron_james.htm
Yeah I'm the retard. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:54 PM Author: Paralegal Mohammad Do you watch basketball? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48914110) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 2:11 PM Author: mountain cat Yeah, a lot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48914250) |
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Date: May 7th, 2025 6:29 PM Author: .;:..;:.;.:.;.,,,..,.:,.;....;,;;;..;,..,,.,,...., With at least 2 more championships, he may sneak into the top 10 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48911931) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 7:32 AM Author: caitlin clark I had to think about this for a while before responding.
There are a lot of factors that go into ranking the very top players.
Skill level (this is not the same as stats), competitive drive/killer instinct, # of championships won, individual stats, domination relative to peers, leadership, longevity, being able to play both side of the ball, etc.
He definitely is in the top 5 for offensive statistics compared to peers as he dominates in ppg, rebounds, and assists in a way that's never been done in the modern game. The difference in the Nuggets offense with him vs without him is absolutely insane. An argument can be made as an extension of those stats that he is among the most skilled players of all time. He is definitely one of the most skilled big men of all time, at least offensively. Assessing his defense is difficult because he handles SO MUCH of the workload on offense that I think his defense is relatively undeveloped. But certainly someone with his IQ could be better at defense than he is currently. (Obviously, offense matters more than defense, but I dont think we can completely ignore defense when discussing GOATs)
I think it's possible that he ends up in the top 5 players of all time, but it's really hard to rank someone in the middle of their prime.
So, idk, I'd put him probably in the top 20 overall of all time currently and maybe in the top 10, but I'm hesitant to move him into the top five overall at the moment. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 10:55 AM Author: Paralegal Mohammad Good response, thanks. Yeah, as I said in the op it takes a bit of extrapolation to put him in the top 5 currently but even 3 more years at this level and he’s there. And if they somehow win this year—and really, only OKC is the main opponent standing between them and that goal suddenly—I think this narrative will quickly begin taking life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913272) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:41 AM Author: Cowghost The top 5 is largely measured in titles and MVPs
He would need to win like 3 more MVPs and 2 more titles to lock it up |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 11:57 AM Author: mountain cat If he retired now, he's not in the top 10. He needs at least a few more years.
I think the comparison between Jokic, Shaq and Dream is going to be a big debate in a few years for a lot of the reasons you said.
Jokicmos will argue his unprecedented offensive prowess, Shaqmos will argue his dominance on both ends of the Court, Dreammos will argue that he's some combination. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 12:19 PM Author: .....;;,,.........;.;.;.;.,;,;,;.;.;,; A center who is not an elite defender is always going to have a much lower ceiling v all the ones that were. Prime Hakeem and the Rockets would be an insanely difficult matchup for Jokic because he would be helpless against Hakeem (just like David Robinson was despite being way more athletic, taller/longer and much better overall defensively), but Hakeem could handle Jokic 1 on 1. This is also why guys like Russell, Duncan and Anthony Davis are vastly underrated by fan perception and overall public opinion v their actual output on the court as reflected in a wide variety of advanced stats. Offensive counting stats are just generally overrated.
All that said, if Jokic has five more years like the last five and can win another ring or two he is in the top 10 conversation pushing guys like Duncan and Russell because at that point he would have put together a top 2-3 all time offensive resume, so his mid defense becomes easier to look past. |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:16 PM Author: ..,.,.,,,,.,.,..,.,,,.,..,,.,.,,, "lower ceiling"
dude he won a title and finals mvp lol |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:22 PM Author: .....;;,,.........;.;.;.;.,;,;,;.;.;,; Um huh? So did Jaylen Brown. Duncan won 5 and three finals MVPs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913856) |
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Date: May 8th, 2025 1:18 PM Author: mountain cat cr. that was my thought process as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5721660&forum_id=2E#48913823) |