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New York Times Reveals How Shitty LS Truly Is
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Date: January 8th, 2011 7:50 PM Author: BOOTHie http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005529) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:09 PM Author: Reema Bajaj\'s bolt on tits ("arent IPods crazy?' " do cats have emotions?") someone please post teh text so we dont have to sign in
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:13 PM Author: 12or6 January 8, 2011 Is Law School a Losing Game? By DAVID SEGAL IF there is ever a class in how to remain calm while trapped beneath $250,000 in loans, Michael Wallerstein ought to teach it.
Here he is, sitting one afternoon at a restaurant on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, a tall, sandy-haired, 27-year-old radiating a kind of surfer-dude serenity. His secret, if that’s the right word, is to pretty much ignore all the calls and letters that he receives every day from the dozen or so creditors now hounding him for cash.
“And I don’t open the e-mail alerts with my credit score,” he adds. “I can’t look at my credit score any more.”
Mr. Wallerstein, who can’t afford to pay down interest and thus watches the outstanding loan balance grow, is in roughly the same financial hell as people who bought more home than they could afford during the real estate boom. But creditors can’t foreclose on him because he didn’t spend the money on a house.
He spent it on a law degree. And from every angle, this now looks like a catastrophic investment.
Well, every angle except one: the view from law schools. To judge from data that law schools collect, and which is published in the closely parsed U.S. News and World Report annual rankings, the prospects of young doctors of jurisprudence are downright rosy.
In reality, and based on every other source of information, Mr. Wallerstein and a generation of J.D.’s face the grimmest job market in decades. Since 2008, some 15,000 attorney and legal-staff jobs at large firms have vanished, according to a Northwestern Law study. Associates have been laid off, partners nudged out the door and recruitment programs have been scaled back or eliminated.
And with corporations scrutinizing their legal expenses as never before, more entry-level legal work is now outsourced to contract temporary employees, both in the United States and in countries like India. It’s common to hear lawyers fret about the sort of tectonic shift that crushed the domestic steel industry decades ago.
But improbably enough, law schools have concluded that life for newly minted grads is getting sweeter, at least by one crucial measure. In 1997, when U.S. News first published a statistic called “graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation,” law schools reported an average employment rate of 84 percent. In the most recent U.S. News rankings, 93 percent of grads were working — nearly a 10-point jump.
In the Wonderland of these statistics, a remarkable number of law school grads are not just busy — they are raking it in. Many schools, even those that have failed to break into the U.S. News top 40, state that the median starting salary of graduates in the private sector is $160,000. That seems highly unlikely, given that Harvard and Yale, at the top of the pile, list the exact same figure.
How do law schools depict a feast amid so much famine?
“Enron-type accounting standards have become the norm,” says William Henderson of Indiana University, one of many exasperated law professors who are asking the American Bar Association to overhaul the way law schools assess themselves. “Every time I look at this data, I feel dirty.”
IT is an open secret, Professor Henderson and others say, that schools finesse survey information in dozens of ways. And the survey’s guidelines, which are established not by U.S. News but by the American Bar Association, in conjunction with an organization called the National Association for Law Placement, all but invite trimming.
A law grad, for instance, counts as “employed after nine months” even if he or she has a job that doesn’t require a law degree. Waiting tables at Applebee’s? You’re employed. Stocking aisles at Home Depot? You’re working, too.
Number-fudging games are endemic, professors and deans say, because the fortunes of law schools rise and fall on rankings, with reputations and huge sums of money hanging in the balance. You may think of law schools as training grounds for new lawyers, but that is just part of it.
They are also cash cows.
Tuition at even mediocre law schools can cost up to $43,000 a year. Those huge lecture-hall classes — remember “The Paper Chase”? — keep teaching costs down. There are no labs or expensive equipment to maintain. So much money flows into law schools that law professors are among the highest paid in academia, and law schools that are part of universities often subsidize the money-losing fields of higher education.
“If you’re a law school and you add 25 kids to your class, that’s a million dollars, and you don’t even have to hire another teacher,” says Allen Tanenbaum, a lawyer in Atlanta who led the American Bar Association’s commission on the impact of the economic crisis on the profession and legal needs. “That additional income goes straight to the bottom line.”
There were fewer complaints about fudging and subsidizing when legal jobs were plentiful. But student loans have always been the financial equivalent of chronic illnesses because there is no legal way to shake them. So the glut of diplomas, the dearth of jobs and those candy-coated employment statistics have now yielded a crop of furious young lawyers who say they mortgaged their future under false pretenses. You can sample their rage, and their admonitions, on what are known as law school scam blogs, with names like Shilling Me Softly, Subprime JD and Rose Colored Glasses.
“Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”
But so far, the warnings have been unheeded. Job openings for lawyers have plunged, but law schools are not dialing back enrollment. About 43,000 J.D.’s were handed out in 2009, 11 percent more than a decade earlier, and the number of law schools keeps rising — nine new ones in the last 10 years, and five more seeking approval to open in the future.
Apparently, there is no shortage of 22-year-olds who think that law school is the perfect place to wait out a lousy economy and the gasoline that fuels this system — federally backed student loans — is still widely available. But the legal market has always been obsessed with academic credentials, and today, few students except those with strong grade-point averages at top national and regional schools can expect a come-hither from a deep-pocketed firm. Nearly everyone else is in for a struggle. Which is why many law school professors privately are appalled by what they describe as a huge and continuing transfer of wealth, from students short on cash to richly salaried academics. Or perhaps this is more like a game of three-card monte, with law schools flipping the aces and a long line of eager players, most wagering borrowed cash, in a contest that few of them can win.
And all those losers can remain cash-poor for a long time. “I think the student loans that kids leave law school with are more scandalous than payday loans,” says Andrew Morriss, a law professor at the University of Alabama. “And because it’s so easy to get a student loan, law school tuition has grossly outpaced the rate of inflation for the last 20 years. It’s now astonishingly high.”
Like everything else about the law, however, the full picture here is complicated. Independent surveys find that most law students would enroll even if they knew that only a tiny number of them would wind up with six-figure salaries. Nearly all of them, it seems, are convinced that they’re going to win the ring toss at this carnival and bring home the stuffed bear.
And many students enroll for reasons other than immediate financial returns. Mr. Wallerstein, for instance, was drawn by the prestige of the degree. He has no regrets, at least for now, even though he seems doomed to a type of indentured servitude at least through his 30s.
“Law school might not be worth it for another 10 or 15 years,” he says, “but the riskier approach always has the bigger payoff.”
True, say Professor Henderson and his allies. But he contends that law schools — which, let’s not forget, require students to take courses on disclosure and ethics — have a special moral obligation to tell the truth about themselves. It’s an obligation that persists, he says, even if students would sign on the dotted line no matter what.
“You’re beginning your legal education at an institution that is engaging in the kind of disreputable practices that we would be incredibly disappointed to discover our graduates engaging in,” he says. “What we have here is powder keg, and if law schools don’t solve this problem, there will be a day when the Federal Trade Commission, or some plaintiff’s lawyer, shows up and says ‘This looks like illegal deception.’”
WHEN he start in 2006, Michael Wallerstein knew little about the Thomas Jefferson School of Law, other than that it was in San Diego, which seemed like a fine place to spend three years.
“I looked at schools in Pennsylvania and Long Island,” he says, “but I thought, why not go somewhere I’ll enjoy?”
Mr. Wallerstein is chatting over lunch one recent afternoon with his fiancée, Karin Michonski. She, too, seems unperturbed by his dizzying collection of i.o.u.’s. Despite those debts, she hopes that he does not wind up in one of those time-gobbling corporate law jobs.
“We like hanging out together,” she says with a laugh.
If love paid the bills, these two would be debt-free tomorrow. But it doesn’t, and Mr. Wallerstein has no money in the bank, no assets and — aside from the occasional job as a legal temp — no wages to garnish. He and Ms. Michonski live rent-free in a nearby brownstone, in return for keeping an eye on the elderly man who owns the place.
“Sometimes the banks will threaten to sue,” he says, “but one of the first things you learn in law school, in civil procedure class, is that it doesn’t make sense to sue someone who doesn’t have anything.”
He remembers little about the promotional materials the Thomas Jefferson school sent when he applied in 2006, other than a pamphlet with lots of promising numbers. That was before the economy crumbled, but the school’s postgraduate data still looks fabulous, particularly given its spot in the fourth and bottom tier of U.S. News’s rankings. The most recent survey says 92 percent of Thomas Jefferson grads were employed nine months after they earned their degrees.
Beth Kransberger, associate dean of student affairs at Thomas Jefferson, stands by that figure, noting that it includes 25 percent of those graduates who could not be located, as well as anyone who went on to other graduate studies — all perfectly kosher under the guidelines.
Like lots of administrators, she defends the figures she gathers and laments that so many other schools are manipulating results.
“You need to take the high road,” she said. “Schools that are behaving the most ethically want students who come to law school with their eyes open.”
Even students with open eyes, though, will have a hard time sleuthing through the U.S. News rankings. They are based entirely on unaudited surveys conducted by each law school, using questions devised by the American Bar Association and the National Association for Law Placement. Given the stakes and given that the figures are not double-checked by an impartial body, each school faces exactly the sort of potential conflict of interest lawyers are trained to howl about.
The surveys themselves have a built-in bias. As many deans acknowledge, the results are skewed because graduates with high-paying jobs are more likely to respond than people earning $9 an hour at Radio Shack. (Those who don’t respond are basically invisible, aside from reducing the overall response rate of the survey.)
Certain definitions in the surveys seem open to abuse. A person is employed after nine months, for instance, if he or she is working on Feb. 15. This is the most competitive category — it counts for about one-seventh of the U.S. News ranking — and in the upper echelons, it’s not unusual to see claims of 99 percent and, in a handful of cases, 100 percent employment rates at nine months.
A number of law schools hire their own graduates, some in hourly temp jobs that, as it turns out, coincide with the magical date. Last year, for instance, Georgetown Law sent an e-mail to alums who were “still seeking employment.” It announced three newly created jobs in admissions, paying $20 an hour. The jobs just happened to start on Feb. 1 and lasted six weeks.
A spokeswoman for the school said that none of these grads were counted as “employed” as a result of these hourly jobs. In a lengthy exchange of e-mails and calls, several different explanations were offered, the oddest of which came from Gihan Fernando, the assistant dean of career services. He said in an interview that Georgetown Law had “lost track” of two of the three alums, even though they were working at the very institution that was looking for them.
As absurd as the rankings might sound, deans ignore them at their peril, and those who guide their schools higher up the U.S. News chart are rewarded with greater alumni donations, better students and jobs at higher-profile schools.
“When I was a candidate for this job,” said Phillip J. Closius, the dean of the University of Baltimore School of Law, “I said ‘I can talk for 10 minutes about the fallacies of the U.S. News rankings,’ but nobody wants to hear about fallacies. There are millions of dollars riding on students’ decisions about where to go to law school, and that creates real institutional pressures.”
Mr. Closius came from the University of Toledo College of Law, where he lifted the school to No. 83 from No. 140, he said. Among his strategies: shifting about 40 students with lower LSAT scores into the part-time program. Because part-time students didn’t then count in the U.S. News survey — the rules have since been changed — Toledo’s bar passage rate rose, which helped its ranking.
“You can call it massaging the data if you want, but I never saw it that way,” he says. Weaker students wound up with lighter course loads, which meant that fewer of them flunked out. In his estimation, a dean who pays attention to the U.S. News rankings isn’t gaming the system; he’s making the school better.
Unfortunately, he says, not all schools play fair.
Of course, fair play is hardly encouraged. Any institution with the guts to report, say, a 4 percent drop in postgraduate employment would plunge in the rankings, leaving the dean to explain a lot of convoluted math, and the case for unvarnished truth, to a bunch of angry students and alums.
Critics of the rankings often cast the issue in moral terms, but the problem, as many professors have noted, is structural. A school that does not aggressively manage its ranking will founder, and because there are no cops on this beat, there is no downside to creative accounting. In such circumstances, the numbers are bound to look cheerier, even as the legal market flat-lines.
“We ought to be doing a better job for our students and spend less time worrying about whether another school is five spots ahead,” says David N. Yellen, dean of the Loyola University Chicago School of Law. “But in the real world you can’t escape from the pressures. We’re all sort of trapped. I don’t know if anyone is out-and-out lying, but I do know that a lot of schools are hyping a lot of misleading statistics.”
WHEN Mr. Wallerstein started at Thomas Jefferson, he was in no mood for austerity. He borrowed so much that before the start of his first semester he nearly put a down payment on a $350,000 two-bedroom, two-bath condo, figuring that the investment would earn a profit by the time he graduated. He was ready to ink the deal until a rep at the mortgage giant Countrywide asked if his employer at the time — a trade magazine publisher in New Jersey — would write a letter falsely stating that he was moving to San Diego for work.
“We were on a three-way call with my real estate agent and I said I didn’t feel comfortable with that,” he says. “The Countrywide guy chuckled and said, ‘Everyone lies on their mortgage application.’ ”
Instead, Mr. Wallerstein rented a spacious apartment. He also spent a month studying in the South of France and a month in Prague — all on borrowed money. There were cost-of-living loans, and tuition of about $33,000 a year. Later came a $15,000 loan to cover months of studying for the bar.
Today, his best guess is that he should be sending $2,000 to $3,000 a month in total, to lenders that include Wells Fargo, Citibank and Sallie Mae.
“There are a bunch of others,” he says. “I’m not really good at keeping records.”
Mr. Wallerstein didn’t know it at the time, but Thomas Jefferson leads the nation’s law schools in at least one category: 95 percent of students graduate with debt, the highest rate in the U.S. News rankings.
The reason, Ms. Kransberger says, is that many Thomas Jefferson students are either immigrants or, like Mr. Wallerstein, the first person in their family to get a law degree; statistically those are both groups with generally little or modest means. When Ms. Kransberger meets applicants engaged in what she calls “magical thinking” about their finances, she advises them to defer for a year or two until they are on stronger footing.
“But I don’t think you can act as a moral educator,” she says. “Should we really be saying to students who don’t have family help, ‘No, you shouldn’t have access to law school’? That’s a tough argument to make.”
It’s an argument complicated by the reality that a small fraction of graduates are still winning the Big Law sweepstakes. Yes, they tend to hail from the finest law schools, and have the highest G.P.A.’s. But still.
“Who’s to say to any particular student, ‘You won’t be the one to get the $160,000-a-year job,’ ” says Steven Greenberger, a dean at the DePaul College of Law. “I think they should have all the info, and the info should be accurate, but saying once they know that they shouldn’t be allowed to come, that’s predicated on the idea that students are really ignorant and don’t know what is best for them.”
Based on the seething and regret you hear from some law school grads, more than a few wish that someone had been patronizing enough to say, “Oh no you don’t.” But it’s often hard to convince students about the potential downside of law school, says Kimber A. Russell, a 37-year-old graduate of DePaul, who writes the Shilling Me Softly blog.
“This idea of exceptionalism — I don’t know if it’s a thing with millennials, or what,” she says, referring to the generation now in its 20s. “Even if you tell them the bottom has fallen out of the legal market, they’re all convinced that none of the bad stuff will happen to them. It’s a serious, life-altering decision, going to law school, and you’re dealing with a lot of naïve students who have never had jobs, never paid real bills.”
Graduates who have been far more vigilant about their finances than Mr. Wallerstein are in trouble. Today, countless J.D.’s are paying their bills with jobs that have nothing do with the law, and they are losing ground on their debt every day. Stories are legion of young lawyers enlisting in the Army or folding pants at Lululemon. Or baby-sitting, like Carly Rosenberg, of the Brooklyn Law School class of 2009.
“I guess I kind of assumed that someone would hook me up with something,” she says. She has sent out 15 to 20 résumés a week since March, when she passed the bar. So far, nothing.
Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
“I grew up a ward of the state of New York, so I don’t have any parents to call for help,” Mr. Bohn says. “For my sanity, I have to think there is an end in sight.”
AS a student, Mr. Wallerstein assumed that the very scale of law school — all the paperwork, all the professors, all the tests — implied that pots of gold awaited anyone with smarts, charm and a willingness to work hard. He began to doubt that assumption when the firm where he had interned told him that it hadn’t been profitable for two years and could not offer him a full-time job.
Mr. Wallerstein and his fiancée moved back East after graduation, and he landed a job at a small firm in Queens. He says he was paid $10 an hour and worked for a manager who seemed to have walked straight out of a Dickens novel. Over a firm-wide lunch, as Labor Day approached, she asked employees to thank her, one at a time, for giving them the holiday off.
“When it was my turn, I said, ‘Labor Day is about celebrating the 40-hour workweek, weekends, that sort of thing,’ ” Mr. Wallerstein recalls. “She said, ‘Well, workers have that now so you don’t need a day off to celebrate it.’ ”
He lasted less than a month.
Since then, he has found jobs at temporary projects reviewing documents.The latest of these gigs is in office space rented on the 11th floor of the Viacom building in Times Square. He sits in a small, windowless room with five other lawyers, all clicking through page after page of documents on computers under fluorescent lights. The walls are bare except for the name of each lawyer, tacked overhead.
“Welcome to the veal pen,” said one during a tour two weeks ago.
The job is set up through a company called Peak Discovery, which put an ad on Craigslist, seeking 100 lawyers. “We got about 300 responses overnight,” said John Thacher, who is managing the project.
Mr. Thacher has managed about 2,500 people in his six years in the temporary legal business, and maybe five of them have gone on to associate jobs in law firms, the kind of work that nearly everyone aspires to when entering law school.
“Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.”
This gets to what might be the ultimate ugly truth about law school: plenty of those who borrow, study and glad-hand their way into the gated community of Big Law are miserable soon after they move in. The billable-hour business model pins them to their desks and devours their free time.
Hence the cliché: law school is a pie-eating contest where the first prize is more pie.
Law school defenders note that huge swaths of the country lack adequate and affordable access to lawyers, which suggests that the issue here isn’t oversupply so much as maldistribution. But when the numbers are crunched, studies find that most law students need to earn around $65,000 a year to get the upper hand on their debt.
That kind of money is hard to earn hanging a shingle in rural Ohio or in public defenders’ offices, the budgets of which are often being cut. As elusive, and inhospitable, as jobs in Big Law may be, they are one of the few ways for new grads to keep out of delinquency.
The mismatch of student expectations and likely postgraduate outcomes is starting to yield some embarrassing headlines. In October, a student at Boston College Law School made news by posting online an open letter to the dean, offering to leave the school if he could get his tuition money back.
“With fatherhood impending,” wrote the student, whose name was redacted, “I go to bed every night terrified of the thought of trying to provide for my child AND paying off my J.D., and resentful at the thought that I was convinced to go to law school by empty promises of a fulfilling and remunerative career.”
After a few years of warnings by concerned professors, the American Bar Association is now studying whether it should refine the questions in its surveys in order to get more realistic and useful statistics for the U.S. News rankings. In mid-December, the organization held a two-day hearing in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., about the collection of job placement data.
“There is a legitimate question about whether we’re asking for detailed-enough info and displaying that info for those who use it,” says Bucky Askew of the bar association. “I think it’s fair to say we’re aware of the criticism and have a committee working to getting to the bottom of this.”
And what about U.S. News? The editors could, but won’t unilaterally demand better data from law schools. “Do we have the power to do that? Yes, I think we do,” said Robert Morse, who oversees the law school rankings. “But we’d have to create a whole new definition of ‘employed,’ and it would be awkward if U.S. News imposed that definition by itself. It would be preferable if the A.B.A. took a leadership role in this.”
Instead of overhauling the rankings, some professors say, the solution may be to get law schools and the bar association out of the stat-collection business. Steven Greenberger of DePaul recommends a mandatory warning — a bit like the labels on cigarette packs — that every student taking the LSAT, the prelaw standardized test, must read.
“Something like ‘Law school tuition is expensive and here is what the actual cost will be, the job market is uncertain and you should carefully consider whether you want to pursue this degree,’ ” he says. “And it should be made absolutely clear to students, that if they sign up for X amount of debt, their monthly nut will be X in three years.”
Another approach would be to limit class sizes or the number of new law schools. But the bar association, which is granted accrediting authority by the Department of Education, says that it would run afoul of antitrust law if it imposed such limits.
Today, American law schools are like factories that no force has the power to slow down — not even the timeless dictates of supply and demand.
Solving the J.D. overabundance problem, according to Professor Henderson, will have to involve one very drastic measure: a bunch of lower-tier law schools will need to close. But nobody inside of the legal establishment, he predicts, has the stomach for that. “Ultimately,” he says, “some public authority will have to step in because law schools and lawyers are incapable of policing themselves.”
MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining. Once you throw in the intangibles of having a J.D., he says, he is one of law schools’ satisfied customers.
“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”
Compared with the life he left four years ago, he has lost ground. That research position in Newark, he figures, would pay him $60,000 a year now, with benefits. Instead, he’s vying with a crowd for jobs that pay at rates just a little higher, but that last only a few weeks at a time, with no benefits. And he’s a quarter-million dollars in the hole.
Unless, somehow, the debt just goes away. Another of Mr. Wallerstein’s techniques for remaining cool in a serious financial pickle: believe that the pickle might somehow disappear.
“Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”
He gives a slight shrug and a smile as he heads back to work. “It could be worse,” he says. “It’s not like they can put me jail.”
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:34 PM Author: Reema Bajaj\'s bolt on tits ("arent IPods crazy?' " do cats have emotions?") excellent article (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005951) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:41 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006012) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:10 AM Author: blink 182 at first i didn't get why the dude was so glib and kinda indifferent when asked about his hellish life. then i realized that he's really really fucking dumb. he went to a school called thomas jeffers in san diego. lol!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009428) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:14 AM Author: SlapJohnson Part 2 LOLOLOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017680) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:51 AM Author: ReggieBush honestly, you have to feel bad for this guy and thousands others who get lured into law school.
i was waiting to see WHERE he went to LS. once i saw thomas jefferson, i knew what the problem was.
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:58 AM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. lol no. The only people remotely deserving of sympathy are the many who went T14 and got fucked. These problems are not limited to schools like Thomas Jefferson. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017881) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:20 AM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. They do make a mention of the CLS dood who is in the same situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018013) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 12:32 PM Author: DoodlyFriend Those people don't deserve one iota more sympathy than the guy who went to TJ. If anything they deserve less, because they'll eventually be alright. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018503) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:17 AM Author: orionalias I'm confused, i didn't have to login or anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17008742) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:12 PM Author: 12or6 lol she blamed millenials (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005749) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:37 PM Author: Nathan Drake "MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining. Once you throw in the intangibles of having a J.D., he says, he is one of law schools’ satisfied customers.
“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”"
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^ ROFL!!!!
The best thing about law school isn't the 1% shot at getting gainful employment, it's the PREFTIGE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON SCHOOL OF LAW!!!
None of my other friends could have EVER DONE IT!!!!! |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:57 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest Mr. Wallerstein and his fiancée moved back East after graduation, and he landed a job at a small firm in Queens. He says he was paid $10 an hour and worked for a manager who seemed to have walked straight out of a Dickens novel. Over a firm-wide lunch, as Labor Day approached, she asked employees to thank her, one at a time, for giving them the holiday off.
“When it was my turn, I said, ‘Labor Day is about celebrating the 40-hour workweek, weekends, that sort of thing,’ ” Mr. Wallerstein recalls. “She said, ‘Well, workers have that now so you don’t need a day off to celebrate it.’ ”
He lasted less than a month. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:30 PM Author: JustWokeUp i would have rubbed my dick all over her seat, computer and desk (when she wasn't in her office) if this happened to me, took pics, and waited until she let me go to let her know. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006427) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:50 PM Author: (..retired..) As a T4 grad he should have been in continual orgasm that he actually got a lawyer job. Thank the bitch, put the hours in and then move to something better. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006579) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:30 PM Author: JustWokeUp your typical elitism is half right. he should never be a lawyer in the first place, but no one should act like this bitch did. i'd like to see where her shit degree came from. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007343) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:26 PM Author: Megafund #QadirZeusMuhammad "a manager who seemed to have walked straight out of a Dickens novel"
Absolutely New School |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 6:25 AM Author: makinbank "Today, his best guess is that he should be sending $2,000 to $3,000 a month in total, to lenders that include Wells Fargo, Citibank and Sallie Mae.
“There are a bunch of others,” he says. “I’m not really good at keeping records."
Well, I'm sold, I'd like to hire this man as my attorney. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:37 PM Author: GatticusFinch (You Never Know What This Litigant's Gonna Do) RESPECT AND LOOK UP TO HIM ASSHOLE (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17023292) |
Date: January 8th, 2011 8:04 PM Author: .......................... ........... ........... It's hard to have that much sympathy for someone who attends Thomas Jefferson Law School because it "seemed like a fine place to spend three years." It's not that hard to research the job prospects from schools like this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005677) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:06 PM Author: slim_shady_man great article....the ABA should fucking close Wayne State Law and Cooley...fucking scams (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005699) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:36 PM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... exactly. my favorite comment was "Despite those debts, she hopes that he does not wind up in one of those time-gobbling corporate law jobs." don't fucking worry no thomas jefferson grad is working in corporate law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005964) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:07 PM Author: setstein Unlike medicine and perhaps dentistry, law school is like all other types of schools in that school prestige and grades are all-important. The reason is that the total number of law school places in the country is not restricted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005707) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:46 PM Author: sealclubber Well, they can't restrict it, right? "Another approach would be to limit class sizes or the number of new law schools. But the bar association, which is granted accrediting authority by the Department of Education, says that it would run afoul of antitrust law if it imposed such limits. " Bull shit. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:50 PM Author: my little suomi: finnship is pelagic! (Greetings) It's true. Did you know the Clinton Administration sought to use antitrust law against the ABA because of this very fucking thing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007477) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:52 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' wow, libtards fucking shit up with screwed up economic theory so that they can placate their campaign donors in the legal lobby. big shcock. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007491) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:57 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. TCR. The ABA probably didn't give two shits that they couldn't go forward with their accreditation measures. Hell, they could have just asked the DOJ to do this so they wouldn't have to worry about it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007526) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:55 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. That was nothing more than a pathetic stunt. They never would have actually brought suit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007510) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:08 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' fucking 180. tyft. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005713) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:09 PM Author: mattsaracen (i ain't takin no days off till my spaceship takes off) Closing down the 3rd/4th tier isn't really going to help things that much at the moment. T14 students do not compete with Cooley students for jobs, and the T14 is still having trouble placing all of its grads. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005722) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:12 PM Author: ¸¨ ¸¨ ¸¨ ¸¨ not entirely true and doesn't matter anyway. there are many good reasons to shut down the 3rd/4th tier, not the least of which is the actual purpose of the ABA--to protect the profession (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005754) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:47 PM Author: sealclubber But they are powerless to help: "Another approach would be to limit class sizes or the number of new law schools. But the bar association, which is granted accrediting authority by the Department of Education, says that it would run afoul of antitrust law if it imposed such limits. " They would protect us, but they just can't, haha. Poor guys. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:20 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. This is pretty much bullshit. AMA does it. But I don't think limiting schools is some great idea anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006338) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:11 PM Author: sealclubber restricting the number of attorneys is the easiest and fairest way to help out attorneys and keep out those most likely to be screwed by going to law school assuming the people kept out are the least qualified |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:06 AM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. I disagree. You aren't really helping anyone until you eliminate like half the graduates or more. Even then you would see a drop in demand that would make it hard to realize benefits to attorneys. E.g. fewer cases are worth bringing, more people just can't afford legal services, greater incentives to outsource, greater drive toward legal services like legalzoom.com. Even if you do achieve a benefit to attorneys by limiting schools, all you're doing is dicking everyone else over so I'm not in favor of it.
As far as keeping people from getting screwed by attending, all you need is better information and to end government funding and the restriction on bankruptcy. Problem solved. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:29 AM Author: ..,;.,;.,.;;;..,;.;.,;,.,;.,;;,.,.; I dont understand your counterintuitive "restricting supply leads to diminished demand" economic argument. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009441) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:38 PM Author: sealclubber combined with the 'let's restrict supply by educating the suckers who want to attend' it's incoherent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011087) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:45 AM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. What I meant to say is that the demand curve for non-biglaw-type legal services--which is the sector that these policies would affect--is basically flat. You're not going to be able to increase price or compensation for attorneys by restricting supply. So I meant that any increase in price would cause demand to drop a lot--not restricting supply.
What this means is that the answer is not to let a smaller number of grads continue to pay large amounts of money for a legal education. You can't increase their wages to an appropriate level. Instead, legal education has to become much cheaper, at least for most grads--like it was just a few years ago in the 1990s. Also more vocational and apprentice-type training.
As far as just making sure people don't make dumb decisions about going to law school, artificially limiting the number of grads is not the way to go. Rather it should be better information and simply much cheaper so there is not so much risk. Part of the solution to drive costs down is to end government loans and make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. Suddenly people are simply unable to make these stupid investments because nobody will lend them money for it. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 12:34 PM Author: DoodlyFriend You've never heard the joke "this twon isn't big enough to support a lawyer, but it's big enough to support two lawyers." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018516) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:39 PM Author: Giant Gay Monkey Riding on Top of a Small Elephant AMA does it b/c lawmakers and judges are afraid of telling doctors what to do. They have no such qualms regarding lawyers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006979) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:51 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. I'm pretty sure the ABA could find a way to limit schools if they really wanted to. They don't really want to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007485) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:56 PM Author: Giant Gay Monkey Riding on Top of a Small Elephant Agreed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007518) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:59 PM Author: ....,.,,,.,.,..........,,,.....,.,.,.,.,...,, Why are you trying to restrict educational access to minorities?
And more lawyers = cheaper lawyers = access to lawyers for poor minorities. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:39 PM Author: sealclubber higher wages for attorneys = more willingness to perform services for poors (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011112) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:45 PM Author: .,.,.,.,..,.,. who would pay for it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011182) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:51 PM Author: sealclubber good question. I guess it would have to be partners and clients who can afford it. And perhaps the government by raising their salaries and rates to hired attorneys. a big problem with law is that you've got so many small fish performing services for shit fees that no one gets ahead. The medical profession would be the same way if the supply was greater. The law profession needs to be more like the medical profession and vice versa. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:13 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest WTF. Unemployed/underemployed top tier grads are forced to seek positions where they compete with garbage school kids. That's why there is a 1000 apps to every random shit job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005760) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:14 PM Author: mattsaracen (i ain't takin no days off till my spaceship takes off) Yeah, I didn't phrase that correctly. My point was just that things suck right now, and allowing a UVA grad with 200k debt to get a 45k job that was otherwise going to a Northeastern student doesn't really mean the situation has been fixed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005769) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:19 PM Author: LathamTouchedMe If you reduce the number of grads then shitlaw will likely increase salaries to get the same number and quality of applicants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005806) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:51 PM Author: ................,......., Many would not, since low quality suffices. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006105) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:21 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. Not really. Legal services would simply become unavailable to even more people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006352) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:16 PM Author: .......................... ........... ........... I graduated from MVP in 2009. I knew a lot of classmates who were no-offered, but all of them have since found SOME sort of work (non-temp/contract). They're not all 160k jobs, but all are six figures.
It's a whole different world at the TTT's. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:20 PM Author: Chinese Virus u think they're being honest about their salary, bro? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005825) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:22 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest that's pretty good. how did the bottom half end up? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005832) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:24 PM Author: .......................... ........... ........... some of them were deep into the bottom half. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005847) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:10 AM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. lol this doesn't happen. I bet AT LEAST 30% going to MVP right now will be unable to find a 6 figure job even 2 years out.
Are you trying to say a whole slew of people were no-offered but later on landed midlaw or something? Lol. |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:20 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, I don't know about MVP but I was 09 from VANDY/UCLA/TEX, and I know a lot of graduates who were in position for BIGLAW now grinding a way in shit-law. I also know quite a few who are severely underemployed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027926) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:31 PM Author: JustWokeUp Students at schools ranked 40-90 or so, who are smart enough to at least be shitlawyers, shouldn't have to compete with these certifiable retards. Also, if T14 students can't get jobs they kind of are competing against Cooley students. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006440) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:11 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
EPIC SITE. Somewhere Winner and HHH are smiling. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:14 PM Author: 12or6 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005770) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:27 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest Crusty Turd: Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State University (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005885) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:58 PM Author: ................,......., http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/profiles-in-brazen-ignorance-hamilton.html
180 |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:04 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest this guy is incredible. we need to invite him to post here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006218) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:08 PM Author: ................,......., Yeah man. Do you think he is a Michigan fan? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006249) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:28 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006418) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:15 PM Author: Love Needs Diversity 250K for Thomas? Really???????? Columbia law grad with shit work. I don't think I'll apply to law school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005781) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:39 PM Author: \"\'\"\'\"\'\'\"\" Tbf the article said he had a masters from Columbia, not jd. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006487) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:15 PM Author: .,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,..,,. reading fail "where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree. " (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007268) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 7:40 AM Author: gulc08 If you look the guy up it shows that he attended UF for law school. It seems that he might have only spent his last year at Columbia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026185) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:20 PM Author: .....................:......:::.......;........... great article, though the guy they tie the article to would have been more powerful if he were T14 instead of a Fourth Tier Toilet grad who sounds like a real dumbass anyway (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005823) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:24 PM Author: LathamTouchedMe true. They did mention the Columbia grad who was struggling. I think they went with this guy since he ultimately said that he had no regrets, and that he wasn't too worried about the debt. It summarizes the current mentality of a lot of young students today. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005851) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:24 PM Author: poindexter “but the riskier approach always has the bigger payoff.”
what a moron |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:26 PM Author: 12or6 he was brilliant enough not to also buy a house (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005876) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:29 PM Author: .....................:......:::.......;........... Yeah, but only because they were trying to get him to commit fraud and it was obvious lol.. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005902) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:16 PM Author: .,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,..,,. you can walk away from a house... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007272) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:29 PM Author: .,,.,...,,......,,.,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,. I also guffawed heavily when I came upon this statement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006420) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:31 AM Author: gelf Drop another 200K on economics phd from Argosy University online.
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:28 PM Author: 11/8/2016 “Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”
--
Fuck, I can't decide whether I hate boomers more or millenials. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:38 PM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. I need to start buying into his theory so I can start sleeping again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005977) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:03 PM Author: The Anthrit Quest tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006201) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:40 PM Author: \"\'\"\'\"\'\'\"\" Fish you will be back in big law in no time. I'm sure you have tons of interviews lined up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006502) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:07 AM Author: my little suomi: finnship is pelagic! (Greetings) you're an asshole (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007614) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:58 AM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010022) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:16 AM Author: SlapJohnson Part 2 Kiss yourself, Fish. Your shitty circumstance is just life shitting in your face as you so richly deserve. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017691) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 8:46 AM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. Explain. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026238) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:23 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. Banks, corporations- of course the next logical group to get a bailout is going to be jobless, powerless, broke-ass lawyers! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006377) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:37 PM Author: Casa Gozo What a fucking shitty article.
Guy from Long Island picks a fourth-tier law school in SAN DIEGO, tries to buy a $350,000 condo WITH THE INTENT OF FLIPPING IT AT A PROFIT IN 3 YEARS, and it pissed when he's pwned? No fucking way TJ was even boasting a $160K median salary, either, which is a nice trick played by the NYT.
Fucking joke. Only thing sleazier than LS administrators are journalists trying to slime them. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:40 PM Author: Nathan Drake This guy sounds like a real winner
"Unless, somehow, the debt just goes away. Another of Mr. Wallerstein’s techniques for remaining cool in a serious financial pickle: believe that the pickle might somehow disappear.
“Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”
He gives a slight shrug and a smile as he heads back to work. “It could be worse,” he says. “It’s not like they can put me jail.” "
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:38 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) fuck yeah i want to be that plaintiff's lawyer that brings the suit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005979) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:40 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. *starts firm that hires unemployed, pissed off JDs for $10/hr to sue law schools* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17005996) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:42 PM Author: 12or6 It could be like 100,000 unemployed lawyers doing folding-at-home-like legal research on a class action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006025) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:49 PM Author: GatticusFinch (You Never Know What This Litigant's Gonna Do) He's not very good at keeping records, but he's sure there is like, two thousand or three thousand cases of good precedent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17023444) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:43 PM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... i bet if you put the right legal minds together, one could make a case against these TTTs for some of their recruiting tactics. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006031) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:49 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) fraudulent misrepresentation based on employment statistics, seems pretty straight forward. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006089) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:01 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. What firm do you think Cooley would hire to defend against my legal juggernaut? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006188) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:43 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) naa, i'll set up the theories, standard practices, basic pleadings etc. then i let people bring their own cases on their behalf and take like 50%. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006033) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:40 PM Author: Carl Spackler "Mr. Wallerstein and his fiancée moved back East after graduation, and he landed a job at a small firm in Queens. He says he was paid $10 an hour and worked for a manager who seemed to have walked straight out of a Dickens novel. Over a firm-wide lunch, as Labor Day approached, she asked employees to thank her, one at a time, for giving them the holiday off."
holy fucking shit. is that what shitlaw is like?
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:42 PM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... fucking hillarious (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006026) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:43 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. interviewee: this is madness! shitlaw steve: THIS IS SHITLAW!
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=1399402&mc=42&forum_id=2 |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:47 PM Author: poindexter ROFLMAO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006063) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:00 PM Author: Chinese Virus yes, look at some of the jobs on shitlawjobs.com
http://www.shitlawjobs.com/2011/01/spanish-speaking-research-attorney-job.html |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:06 AM Author: Doc Lewis (Now I hahff a machine gun. hoh. hoh. hoh.) Later, the manager told Mr. Wallerstein "U SUCK MY COCK BOY" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009712) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:15 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,.,.,:::,....,:,..,:.:.,:.::, i would like to start a shitlaw firm so i could behave like this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021765) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:50 PM Author: GatticusFinch (You Never Know What This Litigant's Gonna Do) She signed all their bi-weekly pittance checks with a QUILL FUCKING PEN dipped in their own blood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17023463) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:45 PM Author: ........,,,,,,......,.,.,.,,,,,,,,,, Can someone explain why this is such a sob story for them?
They can only take like 15% of your income for federal loans, wtf are they bitching about? No one is going to cry for people who got a 15% pay cut ite.
Can you not discharge private loans in bankruptcy? |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:46 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. "Can you not discharge private loans in bankruptcy?"
Not since around 2005, IIRC. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:48 PM Author: 12or6 https://www1.salliemae.com/after_graduation/manage_your_loans/borrower_responsibility/managing_debt/bankruptcy.htm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006072) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:48 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. http://www.finaid.org/questions/bankruptcyexception.phtml (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006076) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:47 PM Author: 12or6 tough to do (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006062) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:49 PM Author: ........,,,,,,......,.,.,.,,,,,,,,,, So these people all have private loans? Is that the issue?
Why didn't they take federal loans? |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:50 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. Federal loans won't cover all the costs at many schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006099) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:53 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) not true. GradPLUS will give you the entire amount up to the cost of attendance. used to be true until like 2006 when GradPLUS was introduced. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006120) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:54 PM Author: 12or6 this seems crazy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006129) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:13 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) it's ridiculous (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006284) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:13 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. This is what I do for my loans. Most people I know also do this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006286) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:55 PM Author: ........,,,,,,......,.,.,.,,,,,,,,,, So basically these people weren't just betting on law school being a good idea, they were betting on it being a fantastically good one where they wouldn't need the safety net provided by federal loans? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006142) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:57 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. That seems right.
"The PLUS loan is limited to cost of attendance minus aid received, as certified by the school."
http://www.finaid.org/loans/gradplus.phtml |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 8:57 PM Author: Carl Spackler whats the diff between federal and private loans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006161) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:01 PM Author: Chinese Virus private loans usually have lower interest rates but arent eligible for IBR or loan forgiveness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006190) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:02 PM Author: Carl Spackler oh i see. so a harvard mba could pull of private loans, but non YLS law students should go for govt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006199) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:05 PM Author: ........,,,,,,......,.,.,.,,,,,,,,,, Currently the interest rates are so similar you'd have to be a moron to do private.
I think back in the day Earl's loans are at like 1% though. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:08 PM Author: Chinese Virus law school was also only 2 years long when earl went (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006242) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:12 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. Rates have changed dramatically over the past few years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006280) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 7:48 AM Author: Mentally ill losers wasting their lives on xoxo They used typewriters his first year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026188) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:05 PM Author: Chinese Virus given the precarious job market, i'd personally go with govt loans if i were in LS now. unfortunately, i graduated in 2007 and got stuck with a good bit of private loans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006225) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:11 PM Author: Carl Spackler can you refinance govt loans w/ private loans down the road if rates drop? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006270) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:13 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. Good question. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006285) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:14 PM Author: Chinese Virus dunno. i just know u can't consolidate them with ur govt loans under the IBR umbrella. sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006292) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:15 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) not without losing the federal guarantee. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006303) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:17 PM Author: Carl Spackler ill prob pay off my mba loans in like 3 years after i get my morgan stanley jerb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006313) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:29 PM Author: Chinese Virus what's the federal guarantee? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006421) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:31 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. I think he means the fact that a borrower can work PI for 10 years and have all the loans forgiven. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006435) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:32 PM Author: Chinese Virus o i c (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006445) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:53 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) naa i meant the guarantee the lender has on the loan. on a federal loan if you default the bank can sell it to the gov't dollar for dollar. if you don't charge the statutory interest rate (like for example by offering a lower rate on a consolidation), that guarantee goes away. so no lender is going to offer lower rates because of that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007109) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:11 PM Author: mirror welcome to the party nyt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006273) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:15 PM Author: Chinese Virus they've had stuff on this before, too. but, yah, mainstream media was late on picking this up (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006297) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:21 PM Author: mirror yeah, i realize its not the first but the general public still has no idea about ls.
i dont care about any 'journalistic obligations,' but it seems like exposing one of the most prestigious degrees in the US would be of interest to people. Especially given how people love the idea of a jd but hate the idea of lawyers |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:25 PM Author: nolocontendere (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006387) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:26 PM Author: :D (i'm pretty sure :D is better than every therapist.) The Feds need to stop subsidizing this shit. Giving everyone a $200k blank check is ridiculous. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006398) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:28 PM Author: mirror its actually the most unique kind of $200k note. us wins, ls win, debtors lose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006413) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:28 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. Liberals love to talk about their support for "training" and "education." They can't cut loan subsidies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006415) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:29 PM Author: mirror it is not support. 8%'d (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006422) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:32 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. Government subsidizes by guaranteeing loans to losers and insuring against default. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006446) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:35 PM Author: mirror the loans cant be discharged. much different than insurin against a normal default (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006461) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:39 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. You're wrong. This is not about discharge.
Private company makes federally backed loan. Borrower defaults. Federal government pays private company. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:45 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. Why does the private company continue to go after the borrower? If it has its money, who cares? It wants double? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006540) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:51 PM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::.....,:,.,:..:.,:.::,. It depends which loans you're talking about. Some old loans (and some new really shady ones) aren't federally backed. There is also some threshold at which the default is triggered. I don't think the private lender can ask for the fed's money after a single missed payment. The payment to the lender doesn't make the debt go away; someone can still try to collect. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006591) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:53 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. They just sell it, then? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006611) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:44 PM Author: mirror you are just making shit up now. you have no idea what you are talking about.
" I don't think the private lender can ask for the fed's money after a single missed payment."
of course they cannot ask the fed for money after one missed payment you fucking idiot
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:37 PM Author: ....,.,,,.,.,..........,,,.....,.,.,.,.,...,, Why don't you tell us what the default condition is? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007389) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:39 PM Author: mirror You're wrong. If that was true the borrower would be off the hook for the debt.
Obviously the worst part of student loans is that you are never off the hook. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:46 PM Author: ....,.,,,.,.,..........,,,.....,.,.,.,.,...,, Describe what you think a government-backed private loan is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007448) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:32 PM Author: JustWokeUp This guy is not the right ambassador. He is the fucking problem - an idiot who goes to a barely accredited shit school without doing any research. Fuck him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006448) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:37 PM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. They should have talked more to the Columbia dood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006474) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:35 AM Author: teatexas I think they picked the right person because there are many like him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009449) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:50 AM Author: JustWokeUp Fine, but also mention the 164 LSAT T50 grad, who is actually smart enough to be a "lawyer", who didn't spend a semester in France, who can't find a jerb either. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009973) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:13 PM Author: two-headed boy (lckmmtp) You basically described me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012120) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:11 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, He isn't the fucking problem. The fucking problem is current public policy which subsidizes idiotic decision making.
No lender in their right mind would lend money to attend a TTT if loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:42 PM Author: Dick Cake Mr. Wallerstein sounds like a real moron. Article loses all power because they focused on the wrong idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006510) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:46 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' this
sounds like an LSD retard |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:48 PM Author: (..retired..) I agree. They could have found a much more deserving case than this retard who thinks taxpayers should bail him out of his debt, including the cost of his vacations to the south of France. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006570) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:52 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' seriously. what a flaming asshole. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006603) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:23 PM Author: JustWokeUp yup, i actually hope this guy fails. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007309) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:34 AM Author: rspm (AIB) the temp lawyer orphan from columbia would have worked just fine probably (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018136) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:50 PM Author: ..,.,.,,,..,.,.,...,.,.,.,.,,,,.,.,.,.,.,....,,.,. 2 solutions 1. Shut down the "bottom 100" law schools. This would halve the number of law grads each year from 50k to 25k. This is obviously impossible 2. For reporting employment, report a) % making over 100k in jobs requiring bar license and b) % making more than 50k in a clerkship or gov't job that requires law degree. This seems pretty feasible
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Date: January 8th, 2011 9:53 PM Author: Dick Cake 1 - you can't - what legal mechanism is there for this.
2 - doesn't get to the heart of the issue.
3 - stop federal support of student loans - allow student law debt to be treated like other debt. This will effectively kill lending on a whim and a prayer to every idiot who applies to a TTT and save them and us from a bunch of misery. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:39 PM Author: ....,.,,,.,.,..........,,,.....,.,.,.,.,...,, "you can't - what legal mechanism is there for this."
Condemnation. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:35 PM Author: ...Magni Blandinn Ok Megintiri... Can't they regulate the quality of students? Like, you need a 170+ LSAT to attend. Law Schools can stay open, but the shitty ones will wither and die. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006947) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:47 PM Author: sealclubber de jure discrimination (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007057) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:19 PM Author: ..,.,.,,,..,.,.,...,.,.,.,.,,,,.,.,.,.,.,....,,.,. that's not bad, maybe have min GPA and LSAT requirements to get into any type of law school; or allow only ~5 law schools for those ppl who don't meet those thresholds
In any case, I don't think many of those solutions matter if the goal is to reduce competition for "good" law jobs since 95% of grads from schools ranked below T30-ish aren't really competitive for anything anyways |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:36 PM Author: JustWokeUp yeah, this would be to reduce the competition for govt/shitlaw and help Tier 2, lower Tier 1 and bottom of the class T14 types. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007381) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:34 PM Author: illtown Good God man.
This kind of thing makes me really appreciate what I have. I graduated several years ago from a tier 2, did well there, and got a very solid job. I can't believe how bad it is out there now. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:39 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' same here. reading this shit made me feel bad im not at work billing right nao. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006980) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:41 PM Author: illtown I don't know WTF would happen to me if I were fired at this point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17006997) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:43 PM Author: Dick Cake do like I did and hope it works out like it did for me (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007017) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:47 PM Author: illtown explain. you got fired? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007052) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:50 PM Author: mirror stay strong bro, you cave and you start fucking us all (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007079) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:44 PM Author: ,......,........;...........,, “Who’s to say to any particular student, ‘You won’t be the one to get the $160,000-a-year job,’ ” says Steven Greenberger, a dean at the DePaul College of Law. “I think they should have all the info, and the info should be accurate, but saying once they know that they shouldn’t be allowed to come, that’s predicated on the idea that students are really ignorant and don’t know what is best for them.”
Where the fuck do law schools find these guys to pimp their brand? BIGCASINO or BIGLOTTO? |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:49 PM Author: Giant Gay Monkey Riding on Top of a Small Elephant "Who am I to tell someone that they won't win the lotto?"
Seriously how many ppl at DePaul in the class of 2011 will be making 160k? No way it is more than 10. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 10:59 PM Author: (..retired..) The day they put it upfront in their material that you have about a 2% chance of $160K out of their school I'll believe he means it.
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:20 PM Author: one putt for a sandy fuck Dean Greenberger. "If the info is accurate"? How about:
"About 1% of our grads get $140-160. The median is $44,000. Most of our professors are hacks who phone it in. They don't give a fuck about the students." |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:43 PM Author: ....,.,,,.,.,..........,,,.....,.,.,.,.,...,, At least the lottery discloses the odds. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007425) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:02 AM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007577) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:01 PM Author: Henrik ( ) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010044) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:09 AM Author: ReggieBush tcr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017951) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 8:21 AM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026213) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:06 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, I totally agree that if someone wants to take out a 1/4 million to get a TTT, they should be allowed to.
I don't agree though that the loans should be subsidized by the government or made non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. There isn't any good public policy reason for subsidizing TTT. |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:27 PM Author: ............................... .................. HAHAHA. GULC's Gihan Fernando PWNED. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007328) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:33 PM Author: two-headed boy (lckmmtp) This article sent me into a depression spiral. Now want to killself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007363) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:44 PM Author: \'\'\'\'\'\'\' arent u the guy with the huge fucking hog?? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007435) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:26 PM Author: two-headed boy (lckmmtp) yeah, but it's not going to help when I'm broke with no ability to make money. Who will fuck me then? Right now I have the advantage of being handsome and still being hidden as a student. When I graduate with no job and all this debt, I will be doomed on the dating / potential marriage scene. :( (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012227) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:51 PM Author: fab five freddy told me everybody\'s fly (i say yes when i ought to say no) *hugs* pls don't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007481) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:27 PM Author: two-headed boy (lckmmtp) ty for the support. i'm still alive, but still depressed as fuck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012233) |
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Date: January 8th, 2011 11:55 PM Author: ""''""'' What's wrong? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007515) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:13 PM Author: two-headed boy (lckmmtp) Like the ape they profiled, I have nearly a quarter million in student loan debt and I don't have a job lined up for graduation. I don't want to live as a debt slave forever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012112) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:00 AM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) the difference between attending a T14 and a non-T14 has never been more pronounced (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007559) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:01 AM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... how do you think thomas jefferson feels that a TTTTTTTT law school is in his name?
bet he's rollin' in dat grave |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:02 AM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) i wish they had focused more on the CLS kid. looks like he clerked at Fried Frank. Don't know what the fuck happened there
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:07 AM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... a legit aspie probably. it happens.
I had a physics tutor back in high school---he went to GATech and got a 4.0 in engineering, MS in engineering from tech, and then a JD from the center. he clerked on the DC circuit. his aspieness was the killer. still a tutor. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:08 AM Author: JustWokeUp i don't understand why a guy like that goes to law school in the first place. seems completely ridiculous, actually. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007622) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:10 AM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... IP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007635) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:25 AM Author: xwxwxwwxxw DC Circuit? Not even a law firm job? That's unbelievable. There are plenty of socially awkward people in law.
There must have been something else going on. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:15 AM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007664) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:14 AM Author: cobinhood they should have focused more on tier 1 schools if not just the shitty job prospects of the top 14. but i guess the main guy of the story was so crazily optimistic and fucked and went to a TTT (which enroll far more than the T14) that they just had to feature him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007660) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:17 AM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... i doubt NYT knew to venture into the world of T14 unemployment. I bet when the journalist started he said hmmm...i bet there are some unemployed TTT fucks. he probably didn't catch onto T14 unemployment and the xoxo shtick until the article was published. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007678) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:18 AM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. He did interview the CLS dood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007682) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:20 AM Author: cobinhood it was just a bare mention of debt burden. didn't really talk much about the real situation of even t14s being unemployed.
the article also misses the larger point that having a JD fundamentally silos you. Having an MBA is at least seen as more "versatile". JD versatility is a huge myth that all law schools try and sell you on. If someone got somewhere else and had a JD, they usually did it in spite of that JD. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:20 AM Author: ;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;. True. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007710) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:29 AM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... yeah, the versatility pitch is just ridiculous.
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:32 AM Author: 12or6 versatile like a lib arts major in you have no specific reason to exist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007802) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:18 AM Author: cobinhood an inside look at the world of doc review and shitlaw could have pulled up quite a few candidates
i also know so many dumb fuck HYP kids who went to crap law schools thinking they'd get out and save the world. now they're totally job pwned. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:40 AM Author: ,.,...,..,.,.,....,,,..,.,.,.,...,.. OMG SOMEONE POAST PAGE 2! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17007874) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:36 AM Author: teatexas it's up there^^^^ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009450) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:51 AM Author: extraterrestrial straight from ATL "“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.” "
I kinda felt sorry for the dude until he said this dumb shit. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:54 AM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway he probably is prestigious to his friends who are gym teachers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009340) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:56 AM Author: extraterrestrial straight from ATL gym teachers >>>>>>>>>> this dude's situation and its not even close (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009343) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 5:00 AM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway i said TO HIS friends, not objectively speaking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009351) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 5:03 AM Author: extraterrestrial straight from ATL true. I guess he mortgaged his future to seem prestigious to his TTT friends. If only one could pay loans in self-satisfaction (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009356) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:53 AM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway ya, as noted above, this shit has been going on at TTTs forever. wish they would have explored T14 or even T20 students that are struggling. there are a ton.
avg people still seem to think someone going to like georgetown is set for a life of luxury but a large % of 3Ls still have nothing lined up |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:56 AM Author: extraterrestrial straight from ATL tbf, this article isn't meant for xoxo posters. It's meant to have wider appeal. An article about a bunch of unemployed CCNers would come off as complaining to the average person (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009341) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:59 AM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway well then the article is shit if it's just reporting on a situation that has already been going on for decades.. the plight of good students is a more recent one.. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009349) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 5:01 AM Author: extraterrestrial straight from ATL pro tip: most people do not know its been going on for years. Just because you, I and those around the legal profession know doesn't mean the average person knows. The article had to explain what the LSAT was for christs' sake (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009352) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 5:07 AM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway shrug, maybe, but the article acts like its a new problem. it should have said "TTTers have been having problems for years, but now it has even toppled over into T14 schools" etc etc (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009361) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:14 AM Author: Roe Skidmore STFU (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017968) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 7:53 AM Author: Mentally ill losers wasting their lives on xoxo Focusing on the plight of CCNers would be totally the new york times. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026191) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:17 AM Author: nolocontendere They should have profiled both a T14er AND the retard from Thomas Jefferson, for the sake of contrast (i.e., the type-A person who did everything right and got fucked vs. the slacker).
I think the TTT story had to be included though because it shows how delusional these kids are. |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:02 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, If they were going to profile a non-elite grad they should have focused on one of the dozens of HYP => Emory/WUSTL unemployed d00ds. Someone like that would appear competent to the average reader. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027790) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 7:27 AM Author: blink 182 we keep seeing these articles. hopefully the supply of lawyers will go down a bit (or a lot). law should be practiced by very few people . the rest of "them" just make life worse for everyone. (there should be no cap on the number of public interest lawyers obviously) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009383) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 8:18 AM Author: der_riese I am sure the situation is very different for the thousands upon thousands of MBA students who borrowed small fortunes based on ridiculous dreams of being CEOs or bond traders at Goldman or whatever....
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:12 AM Author: blink 182 you know what i was just thinking this. we need more articles about them. is their debt just way smaller or prospects way better or some shit? i guess our perspective is skewed though since we get most of our information from xo. there's gotta be a business school xoxohth out there or some shit. i bet they'd know the truth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009429) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:38 AM Author: teatexas they have many more different places they can work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009451) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:44 AM Author: LathamTouchedMe Most mba's are worthless. if it's not a top school no hr department will take it seriously. The key difference between an mba and a jd is that most mba students already have work exp. and careers which they can fall back on. I knew a couple of people from undergrad who went straight through to business school, and got pwned just as bad as jd's. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009460) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 9:49 AM Author: teatexas if people are going to do the exact wrong thing then what can you do? You are not going to get these schools to arbitrarily limit themselves because of profit motives and outcries that you are depriving people of their upward mobility. The problem is driven by zero-standard ed loans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009467) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:16 AM Author: AgentApple Nope. WOnt happen this way, brother. People think the lawyers and law students in these articles are just "whiners" and losers who failed and are bitter now. They refuse to believe its the reality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009518) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:12 AM Author: fiasco Funny thing about these articles is that they always seem to focus on some total TTT grad. Why not find the T14 graduate who's in the same position, would make for an article with more punch.
Other than that though its dead on. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:17 AM Author: AgentApple Because the T14 grad is usually too proud and smart to make a show of themselves like this.
That said, they could at least find a 50-100 range grad. A Univeristy of Florida or Seton Hall type. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:19 AM Author: jerkoffchampion because 99% of people don't know the difference. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17009526) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:25 AM Author: .......,,,.......,,,,,,,,,.........,,,,,,,,,...... as another poster mentioned, it's probably to highlight the daftness of the millennium generation (both law and non-law individuals) and their inability to come to grips with reality.
how many of your friends/acquaintances fall into this category? i think of all the people i know pursuing shit degrees or non-top LS, and the overwhelming majority of them feel like they're going to have some sweet biglaw/consulting/banking/academic job lined up upon graduation.
and for those who have been unemployed for 6+ months, there's a strong sense of ENTITLEMENT to these afoermentioned positions. i know a handful of people who graduated with shit-MBA/shit-JD/shit-grad degrees and they're frustrated by the fact that they've been unemployed for so long. when I ask them how many resumes they send out a week, they tell me 3-5 and that it's such hard work. when I ask them where they're applying, they vent their frustrations at not being offered at least an interview at McKinsey, Credit Suisse or a V50 firm. when I ask them why they don't apply for more modest companies/positions just so they can i) get their foot in the door ii) not have to live at home and rely on their parents to pay off their loans, they tell me that they have a JD/MBA/shit-grad degree from school X and DESERVE better.
the best comments are the ones who think they can somehow "game the system" and get a leg up via "connections" or "networking" when they: i) aren't charismatic; ii) don't have the said contacts through family/friends; iii) have no special skills or assets that would be of benefit to the said benefactor; and iv) assume that they're the only ones who thought of this tactic.
basically, times are tough. but the majority of our generation is full of self-important, egotistical, and entitled brats who aren't willing to make compromises to adjust to the times. i guess that's what happens when you live in a society that raises you from the age of 4 with the notion that "each person is unique and special". when these kids grow up into their mid 20s, they have the same entitled expectations from society that their parents lavished on them throughout their uprbringing. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:36 AM Author: fiasco Don't disagree with any of that. The problem is that shithead 0Ls who read this article will dismiss it with the logic of, "well this guy went to thomas jefferson, that won't happen to me." The goal of these articles needs to be to dissuade people from enrolling in the first place, and imo it would have a better deterrent effect to profile a kid from, say uchicago than tj.
Just like the article says, most students who attend law school think that theyre the special bird who's gonna beat the odds. It's gotta be made explicitly clear that no, no you are not special. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 10:41 AM Author: .......,,,.......,,,,,,,,,.........,,,,,,,,,...... yeah, i see your point and agree that having a T14 grad featured in the article would have been more compelling. having said that, i feel like top JDs and MBAs generally possess particular characteristics that make them predisposed to thinking, "it won't happen to me because i'm better than them", irrespective of what is written in the NYTimes, in any sanction ABA disclaimer, their parents/peers etc.
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Date: January 11th, 2011 8:36 AM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. I don't know. It might give pretty much anyone pause when they see T14ers with mountains of debt and no decent prospects. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026229) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 12:53 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, "it won't happen to me because i'm better than them",
I disagree, I think T14 would be exactly the types of students who would be impacted by articles like this. Most of the people who attend t14 have good options outside the law. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:15 AM Author: The Anthrit Quest the only problem with this is analysis is that they wouldn't get jobs at modest companies either even if they tried. but since they have not tried, i agree, they have not earned the right to complain. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017684) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:18 PM Author: .,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,. This is 180 on point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027904) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:41 AM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) What % of t14 grads fall into this mix? ccn mvp dn bcg?
Likw what percent of t14 end up in shitty, terminal jobs or can't land anything of any quality? |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:45 AM Author: .......,,,.......,,,,,,,,,.........,,,,,,,,,...... i don't know a single HYS grad who hasn't been able to land a reasonable gig.
CCN - I know 5 people, all of whom landed something through OCI or within 6 months of grad.
don't know any at the other schools except one guy at Georgetown is still looking for public sector work (but this was his goal from the onset). One girl at Penn is 3L but still looking. I know two people at Michigan but they're !L. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:56 PM Author: mattsaracen (i ain't takin no days off till my spaceship takes off) I've heard HLS created this fellowship partially to hide unemployed grads: http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05/13_fellowships.html
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Date: January 9th, 2011 1:48 PM Author: LathamTouchedMe CCN schools have done the same. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010620) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 8:00 PM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) I know one of these doods. No offered by a shitty McBigLaw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17014219) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 1:40 PM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010570) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 1:52 PM Author: LathamTouchedMe It's hard to tell but I believe at 2009 OCI (the worst in recent memory) Harvard placed only 58% of their 2L's with the firms interviewing. CCN were about the same or slightly better because they had earlier OCI's. 2010 was definitely a bit better, but I don't know if there have been definitive numbers posted anywhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010644) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:03 PM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) how much better do you think it will be for 2013? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010747) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:39 PM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012340) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:39 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. This seems low. CLS/NYU placed 70% or so. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011105) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 6:27 PM Author: ....,,,..,.,..,.. Stats for Cornell are something like 45% land biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021343) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:56 AM Author: JustWokeUp i dont think many would argue with slicing off all law schools after #100 (unless it is the only law school in its state) for a start. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010003) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:57 AM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. A good idea as long as we also cap class sizes at current law schools to their present size. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010018) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 11:59 AM Author: JustWokeUp well current schools won't want to drop much in USNWR so Rutgers wont start letting in Cooley kids. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010032) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:19 PM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway as long as there are $$$ to be had they'll find a way to admit them and hide them from USNWR (e.g., how they used to do it with PT students) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011580) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:04 PM Author: JustWokeUp they can cap class size, and also physical limitations probably prevent current schools from admitting that many more people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012040) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:04 PM Author: Henrik ( ) must cap class size (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010058) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:07 PM Author: millenial freezing her eggs at 38 WHY DO ALL JOURNALISTS LIVE IN DENIAL OF INCOME BASED REPAYMENT?? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010079) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:14 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) private loans aren't eligible. but yeah, it should get a mention seeing as private loans only account for around 20% of all outstanding student loan debt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010115) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:20 PM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway they still accumulate the interest .. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011590) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 12:50 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, IBR really isn't as great as people make it out to be on xoxo. You still devote 15% of your salary to loans for 25 fucking years and currently have to pay income tax on the discharged amount.
IBR is the equivalent of getting a bud light to wash down your 5 course shit dinner. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:12 PM Author: ..,,.,.,.,.,.,,...,.,,.,.,. LOL at the loser who thinks he didn't get a job because he was too old at 32. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010101) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:15 PM Author: To be fair (Semi-Retired) To be fair,
"Mr. Wallerstein is chatting over lunch one recent afternoon with his fiancée, Karin Michonski. She, too, seems unperturbed by his dizzying collection of i.o.u.’s. Despite those debts, she hopes that he does not wind up in one of those time-gobbling corporate law jobs.
“We like hanging out together,” she says with a laugh.
---
Today, his best guess is that he should be sending $2,000 to $3,000 a month in total, to lenders that include Wells Fargo, Citibank and Sallie Mae.
“There are a bunch of others,” he says. “I’m not really good at keeping records.”
--
MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining. Once you throw in the intangibles of having a J.D., he says, he is one of law schools’ satisfied customers.
“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”"
Jesus Christ.
"“Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.”"
Yeah that's why you couldn't get Cravath - you were 32.
"Another approach would be to limit class sizes or the number of new law schools. But the bar association, which is granted accrediting authority by the Department of Education, says that it would run afoul of antitrust law if it imposed such limits."
Thankfully Dentistry Schools and Medical Schools are explicitly exempt from federal antitrust laws...
I also love how every other name in this article is Jewish. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:18 PM Author: JustWokeUp what class rank of Thomas Jefferson law is required to get Cravath? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010128) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:26 PM Author: millenial freezing her eggs at 38 A professor could probably get hired (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010159) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 12:28 PM Author: To be fair (Semi-Retired) To be fair,
(If he left "Professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law" off of his resume) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 1:03 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. no wonder print media is dying.
at least when you buy shit from a corporation you know they're 100% about profits. higher ed likes to advertise employment numbers and salaries, raise price when demand is high, and otherwise act like a business 95% of the time, then what someone calls them on their b.s. they run and hide behind WE'RE IN THE BUSINESS OF SHAPING YOUNG MINDS and IT'S ALL ABOUT ACCESS FOR UNDERPRIVILEGED GROUPS |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 1:47 PM Author: JustWokeUp In Britain, they rioted when college tuition went up. In America, we all sit and take it. There should have been law school mass riots five years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17010613) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:41 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. ARE generation is a bunch of overachieving strivers who never challenge authority. For every student who'd be willing to go out in the streets there 2 more who will eagerly say "thank you sir, I'm ready for another round." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011134) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:24 PM Author: corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway meh, rioting over ECONOMICS is hardly effective. bunch of morons over there (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011617) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:59 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. *takes out 200K to go to law school*
*sees tuition rise 1K/year in the worst recession in 60 years*
*calls them morons*
idk if the rioting was as much about economics as their governments pushing the cost of the boomers poor lifestyle choices on a group of people much less likely to be able to pay for it, ironically because of aforementioned boomers. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:03 PM Author: JustWokeUp 1K/year? Try 3K/year (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012024) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:29 PM Author: fulano Professor salaries should go down about 400%
There is no justification for their salaries. There are no qualifications necessary to be a professor except a JD, something that 40,000 people get every year. Most people would die to do it to escape the horror of practice. And law school is just a fucking trade school anyway.
Law professor salaries should be low low 6 figures and definitely lower than judge salaries, which are already hilariously low. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:36 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. Big salaries should be given out only after you've demonstrated a) you are a master at a single area of law and would be making millions as a biglaw partner or private attorney anyway, b) an exceptional teacher. Either way it should take years. The HYS > COA > SCOTUS > bigfirm for 2 years > 100K+ academia are the biggest scam artists.
EDIT: Law school isn't a trade school anymore. Now it's all-purpose liberal arts grad school. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:44 PM Author: sealclubber i don't care if a teacher is a master in the area, I only care about b, that they can teach. Of course, what I really would have liked was actual teaching in law school and there was hardly any. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:45 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,....,:::,...,.:,.,.:.:.,:.::,. seconded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011176) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:54 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. idk, my experience with all the profs who are great practicing lawyers in their fields has been awesome (obv they are teaching their practice area). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011275) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:44 PM Author: fulano I completely agree. I dont even care about how much one is worth in private practice--its a completely different environment that is attractive for its own reasons besides $$$.
Scott turow writes his shitnovels while being a partner at a firm, but meanwhile students have to subsidize Amy Chua's chinamom nonsense. and thats at YLS!
Also tenure needs to go. I cant believe anyone can argue for it with a straight face.
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:40 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,....,:::,...,.:,.,.:.:.,:.::,. This. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011123) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:45 PM Author: sealclubber the salaries would be fine if the students benefited more from the teaching. ITE, teachers should be making less, tuition should be less, and attendance should be less until the correction is made (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011185) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:00 PM Author: fulano I don't think the salaries are fine at all. The supply is outrageous, which should lower salaries substantially. (and ps I dont even mean tons of shitlawyers. Every year there are 2000 graduates just from the top 6 schools). and the work load is ridiculously low. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011337) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:13 PM Author: sealclubber I don't have a problem with a teacher making the same as a 1st year biglaw kid. I also don't have a problem with a teacher making less so I'm not going to dispute your points. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:30 PM Author: fulano I think we are in agreement. Shall we celebrate by fingering each other's buttholes? |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:50 PM Author: sealclubber Hot damn. We should be in agreement more often. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011891) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:54 PM Author: Casa Gozo USNWR factor is expenditures per student. Shit like this will not drop until that factor disappears. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011270) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 6:15 PM Author: backhoe operator there should be a clear demarcation between the academic and professional study of law. if you want to stay in law school for three years that's fine, but it shouldn't be necessary for you to qualify as a lawyer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17013193) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:52 PM Author: Gregor How many jobless 3Ls will join me in sitting out this semester until tuition is lowered? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011255) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 2:57 PM Author: ,,.,.,.,.,.,.,................. I will. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011305) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:00 PM Author: Gregor what area of the country are you in bro? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17011336) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 3:17 PM Author: ,,.,.,.,.,.,.,................. NYC area
i still havent paid my tuition |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:02 PM Author: Gregor Ditto on both counts bro. We may be on to something. Your school in manhattan or boroughs? Know others in same position? Bros with balls and nothing to lose? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012016) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:17 PM Author: JustWokeUp bro semester's starting already at many schools, everyone paid tuition
what you CAN do is post some papers around your school when it's visiting day, detailing your school's tuition hikes during the worst market ever. |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:30 PM Author: ...,....,,,...;..,,....,,,;,,,,.,.,.....,,,..... even better would be to lead one of these tours and give them the xoxo shtick (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17012261) |
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Date: January 9th, 2011 4:34 PM Author: Gregor I will hand them out in front of the building.
People always pay late. Late payers have a better chance of success in getting tuition lowered. Can't run out and find transfers to fill the seats weeks into the semester. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:34 AM Author: Casa Gozo NY Times Gets on the "Is law school worth it?" bandwagon Several readers sent this silly piece which, like most scares pieces in the genre, omits any real discussion of the different prospects available to students depending on the reputation of the school. One would have to agree that it is not prudent to borrow a quarter million dollars to get a law degree from Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego, but does that really warrant a story in the NY Times? (The issue about accurate data reporting by law schools, which the story also mentions, is a real one [about which we have written ad nauseam], but that issue should be detached from silly stories about students who made manifestly imprudent decisions.)
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2011/01/ny-times-gets-on-the-is-law-school-worth-it-bandwagon.html |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:35 AM Author: twist brian leiter's blog on innovative cock-sucking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017560) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:59 AM Author: ....,,,..,.,..,.. God I really hate that prick. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017884) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:08 AM Author: Giant Gay Monkey Riding on Top of a Small Elephant "Omits any real discussion of the different prospects available to students depending on the reputation of the school."
This quote would mean something if there were any real differences in employment between students at schools below the top 20. They all suck and aren't worth anywhere near the cost of attendance (this applies to most of the top 20 as well, but at least some of their students get good gigs). |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 10:58 AM Author: ....,,,..,.,..,.. Bingo, there is no real difference between Thomas Jefferson and schools like WUSTL or Case Western or Brooklyn. Most of their classes are royally fucked. If the TJ grads are slightly more fucked its hard to tell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17017879) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:34 PM Author: JustWokeUp the majority of Brooklyn or Case students will at SOME point find legal employment. At TJ, barely more than half probably can pass the bar. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021981) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 8:42 AM Author: .,.,....,.,.,.,:,.,:,...,:::,,...,:,.,.:...,:.::,. Right. 90% of law schools are shitty investments. It's unclear why Leiter thinks this is not noteworthy. Perhaps it is because he has indirectly benefited from policies that have allowed law schools to charge exorbitant tuitions, or perhaps this is just the sort of glossing over of issues that one would expect from a gunner who couldn't crack magna/coif at michigan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026233) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:21 AM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. "does that really warrant a story in the NY Times?"
What a fucking douchebag. |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 12:46 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, JFC what a faggot this guy is.
He devotes an entire blog praising schools like San Diego, Illinois, etc for having great faculty and academic quality. Yet he doesn't give two shits or is somehow unaware that the job prospects for a grad of this school is barely better than Thomas Jefferson.
Also if he correctly thinks TJ is a shit-hole, he should come out and oppose the current easy credit policy for attending that dump. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:17 AM Author: Casa Gozo GULC, CLERKSHIPS --- A number of law schools hire their own graduates, some in hourly temp jobs that, as it turns out, coincide with the magical date. Last year, for instance, Georgetown Law sent an e-mail to alums who were “still seeking employment.” It announced three newly created jobs in admissions, paying $20 an hour. The jobs just happened to start on Feb. 1 and lasted six weeks. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:44 AM Author: rspm (AIB) Yeah the GULC stuff was pretty eye-opening. "yeah, we umm, lost some students."
A spokeswoman for the school said that none of these grads were counted as “employed” as a result of these hourly jobs. In a lengthy exchange of e-mails and calls, several different explanations were offered, the oddest of which came from Gihan Fernando, the assistant dean of career services. He said in an interview that Georgetown Law had “lost track” of two of the three alums, even though they were working at the very institution that was looking for them. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:53 AM Author: ....,,,..,.,..,.. They NEVER really lose track of alums. Lawyers have to have current addresses on file with the state bar. You can find all your old alums by checking with the state bars. The only alums they can potentially lose track of are the handful who never take or pass the bar. It's all BS about their losing track of alums. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018245) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 12:42 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, exactly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027626) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 7:47 AM Author: gulc08 Hmm, they have managed to keep track of me. Every few months I get a stupid magazine and a solicitation to donate money to the school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026187) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 11:51 AM Author: fulano Is this site for real: http://www.collegiatetimes.com/databases/salaries/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor-2009?dept=Law
The Lecturer Public Interest/Public Service Faculty Fellow http://web.law.umich.edu/_facultybiopage/facultybiopagenew.asp?ID=169 makes $350,000
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Date: January 10th, 2011 12:28 PM Author: ..,.,...;;..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..,.,. Between 2007-2008 they add these 500-700K positions who aren't on the list before that. Who the fuck are these guys? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018476) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 12:36 PM Author: sealclubber Oh, the life: Margaret A Leary Law Library $179,500 "you can find that on aisle 4" cha ching |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 12:41 PM Author: ....,,,.,.,..,...,...,.,,.,,.,,,,.,....., Jesus fuck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17018558) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 4:59 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,. Jesus christ, man. it's criminal.
A friend of mine is a law professor. Of course he makes solid bank and has almost no work obligations. But more than that, several times a month he flies to places like DC or SF for circle jerk bullshit "conferences" and "panels." He stays at nice hotels, eats quality meals, etc., and barely does anything at these events. Basically free vacations, all paid for by the debt slave students. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 5:02 PM Author: .,..,,,,,...,..,..,,..,....,.,.,. http://firsttiertoilet.blogspot.com/2011/01/damage-control-columbia-university.html
"In fact, Jason Bohn did not earn a J.D. at Columbia. His LinkedIn profile clearly states that he earned his J.D. at the University of Florida-Frederic G. Levin College of Law."
lol they checked linkedin instead of their own records? |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 6:22 PM Author: ....,,,..,.,..,.. Im confused. I found a Jason Bohn on LinkedIn who did go to Columbia Law. WTF? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021300) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:19 PM Author: .,..,,,,,...,..,..,,..,....,.,.,. are you talking about http://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonjbohn? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021803) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 10:51 AM Author: imgayforreal yeah but not for a JD. as in he just chilled in some classes. kind of a huge difference (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026703) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 6:31 PM Author: ..,.,.,,,..,.,.,...,.,.,.,.,,,,.,.,.,.,.,....,,.,. that's one depressing-as-shit blog (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021372) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 5:04 PM Author: .,.,..,.,..,.,.,,.,..,.,.,...,.,.,., interesting ATL comment -> since NYT is often 2 years behind the curve, maybe this article signals that things are picking up. I remember in 2007/08, NYT had a few articles on how Brooklyn law students were being wined and dined by biglaw firms over the summer, after choosing between multiple offers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17020683) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 5:29 PM Author: ..........,,....,,.,...........,.,,.,,.,.,......., (confused by the concept of debt) next fall's OCI will be the real test. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17020897) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 9:42 PM Author: .,,.....,.,.,.,:,,:,,.:,:::.,,.,:,.,.::.:.,:.::,. (is 10 times as slick) *crosses fingers* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17023365) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 9:49 AM Author: ,..,.,.,,......;.;.,.,., cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026370) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 2:49 PM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. lulz (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17028617) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 5:34 PM Author: .,.,..,.,..,.,.,,.,..,.,.,...,.,.,., lol @ this article rocketing to the top of NYTimes, "most viewed" and "most emailed" articles list. Also near the top of "most blogged" and I'm sure it'll be the #1 blogged by tomorrow (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17020931) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 9:30 AM Author: cauear propped by all the losers envious of biglawyers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026311) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:04 PM Author: Renada Deshada obe that sure does make me lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027797) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:27 PM Author: Savage_Noble the "columbia guy' didn't graduate from CLS, he just took a few courses at the law school while he was at the International Affairs school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17021874) |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:32 PM Author: errwhat source? article says he got a JD
edit: nvm. it seems he got his JD from some school in Florida. |
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Date: January 10th, 2011 7:44 PM Author: Rudolph I enjoyed this. Would read again.
My favorite part:
A law grad, for instance, counts as “employed after nine months” even if he or she has a job that doesn’t require a law degree. Waiting tables at Applebee’s? You’re employed. Stocking aisles at Home Depot? You’re working, too.
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Date: January 10th, 2011 8:06 PM Author: nearlyepic are there any documentaries that deal with this (the shittiness of LS)? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17022260) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 8:23 AM Author: \" \" \'\' \'\' (hypotheses non fingo) xoxohth.com is tc record of despair. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026218) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 9:45 AM Author: Renada Deshada obe law school worked out fine for me; weird (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026359) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 9:55 AM Author: Midnight Cowboy (aka Midnight Cowboy) (convential wisdom)^-1 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17026398) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:00 PM Author: Renada Deshada obe i'm working on an operation that's a bit more complex than a simple inversion, something with cool looking sigma notation and an integral symbol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027774) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 12:40 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,...,:::,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::, As always when I read these articles I'm struck by the stupidity of those who say we have to have sympathy for the pwnd and the you're an idiot who got what he deserved if you didn't attend a T6 on a full ride.
The real issue, which this article like the others never brought up, is that it is poor public policy to make loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy/federal backing of loans.
That is the issue and until this changes job prospects will continue to get worse at even the good schools. We've already seen the collapse of employment prospects at one of the T14, GULC. |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:00 PM Author: .,.,....,.,.,.,:,.,:,...,:::,,...,:,.,.:...,:.::,. ti,oc,tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027768) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 2:49 PM Author: ESL TM..,..;;. cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17028609) |
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Date: January 11th, 2011 1:01 PM Author: Renada Deshada obe BUT WHAT ABOUT THE T-14? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1530076&forum_id=2#17027778) |