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spent a week on Seeking Arrangements. feel gross; need a shower

if you thought tinder was the pinnacle of toxic internet dat...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
explain
cordovan multi-billionaire idiot
  06/23/15
it's just ugly and destructive. yeah, the site is "mere...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
isn't it better than a hooker because you can ask for std pa...
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
can you not do that with hookers in places where it's legal ...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
well i'm not really in the market for hookers anyway, but if...
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
...
aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot
  07/21/16
can you browse without having an account
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
you can browse with a basic placeholder account that can be ...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
spill deets man, what happen
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
nothing actually traumatic happened, and when i spill deets ...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
did you read that other SA thread where the chick kept sendi...
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
i read some threads on xo about it, which is what pointed me...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
What led you to SA?
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
not sure what you're asking. i feel like that's covered in t...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
I mean why not date IRL
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
let's be honest irl urban dating kind of sucks in its own wa...
useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal
  06/23/15
And is the Same Game, less explicitly
charcoal elastic band
  07/23/16
it's not necessarily an either/or and the point of this thre...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
Care to describe the 2 chicks you hooked up with and the exp...
Sienna University Scourge Upon The Earth
  06/23/15
one was 32 or 33, 7-7.5. divorced but no kids (according to ...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
Congrats on your felonies!
Comical flatulent site
  07/21/16
what "types" would you expect to find there
useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal
  06/23/15
that's a perfectly reasonable point. i'd read what sounded l...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
quite fair; i think the experiences are likely pretty simila...
useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal
  06/23/15
yeah. like i said elsewhere, if you're in shape or good look...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
34578236450237452341287659183475603985t791283649812749812736...
bull headed temple
  06/23/15
Tell us more about the Sybian
Comical flatulent site
  07/21/16
i bought one it wasnt really anything special especially ...
aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot
  07/21/16
No one cares that it isn't legal anymore than it stops peopl...
passionate bipolar french chef depressive
  07/22/16
as you say
Thriller church building
  07/23/16
How much are 7s asking for?
cordovan multi-billionaire idiot
  06/23/15
i wonder how cheap they must be in prole towns
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
MFH ones want their rent paid
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
they want your credit card info upfront, dont they?
Mind-boggling Sapphire Sound Barrier
  06/23/15
nah man i just browsed some. surprisingly hot chicks on here
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
just checked it out. makes me sick that i found 3000+ whores...
Mind-boggling Sapphire Sound Barrier
  06/23/15
Not older, just richer. Some want money for taking them out ...
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
FYI many of the girls i talked to, and one of the ones i met...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
yeah this is accurate. both of the girls i ended up with wer...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
nah i don't think so. i made an account with a throwaway...
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
did you post a pic on there?
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
Thoughts on http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2upr...
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
"I read an article about a med student who pretended to...
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
You could run incredible flame on there. Think of xo thr...
impertinent razzle jewess spot
  06/23/15
what if i told you.. it's not flame
Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef
  06/23/15
...
Milky mischievous potus stag film
  06/30/15
...
aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot
  07/21/16
Can you say you are surprised?
Milky mischievous potus stag film
  06/23/15
not really, no.
Red Institution Generalized Bond
  06/23/15
LOL at Vice article http://www.vice.com/read/the-website-tha...
Nighttime Party Of The First Part
  06/23/15
That first pic.... 180
harsh soul-stirring queen of the night associate
  06/23/15
...
harsh soul-stirring queen of the night associate
  06/30/15
She's from Ukraine.
passionate bipolar french chef depressive
  07/22/16
LOL at the NOWAG with the "wife" he's probably nev...
Up-to-no-good filthpig
  07/21/16
...
Bright Aromatic Striped Hyena Kitty
  06/23/15
...
Razzmatazz greedy base old irish cottage
  06/30/15
The pumo going on a glorified escort site and totally gettin...
Fear-inspiring ratface voyeur
  07/21/16
...
passionate bipolar french chef depressive
  07/22/16
I love seeking arrangement. it's reductionist dating. get do...
pink reading party
  07/21/16
not arguing with anything OP is saying ITT and actually cons...
Ebony aphrodisiac public bath
  07/21/16


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:14 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

if you thought tinder was the pinnacle of toxic internet dating, LJL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182804)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:16 AM
Author: cordovan multi-billionaire idiot

explain

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182807)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:25 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

it's just ugly and destructive. yeah, the site is "merely" making more explicit something that is a subtext of lots of IRL interactions, but i can't imagine any somewhat decent person wanting any part of it.

if you want a hooker go get a hooker someplace it's legal. i feel like the one foot in one foot out thing would completely sour anyone who still has a soul on IRL interaction as well as internet facilitated.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182833)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:28 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

isn't it better than a hooker because you can ask for std panel and go raw?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182848)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:39 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

can you not do that with hookers in places where it's legal like reno?

maybe you can and maybe that's a plus for you, i dunno. their pitch doesn't seem to be that, rather it seems to be some type of slight of hand where you pretend it's something different than what it is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182885)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:41 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

well i'm not really in the market for hookers anyway, but if i were, the condom thing would be a dealbreaker. pretty sure in reno they want condoms too.

i figure for SA, the appeal is that these girls aren't used-up professional pros

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182892)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 7:53 PM
Author: aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993015)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:17 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

can you browse without having an account

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182812)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:20 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

you can browse with a basic placeholder account that can be as little as an email+login. you have to pay something to message people and whatnot.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182816)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:21 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

spill deets man, what happen

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182821)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:37 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

nothing actually traumatic happened, and when i spill deets some posters will probably say it sounds awesome.

anyway bought one month "premium" membership. browsed around/exchanged some messages.

ended up hooking up with two girls (not at the same time). both attractive, 7-8 range. didn't spend any money on either, apart from $15 for a bottle of wine with the second one.

but it's demoralizing reading many profiles and interacting with most girls on there. usually one of two types: A) irredeemable resource-depleters who happen to be a 7+ for at least a moment in their life with vapid hopes of a sybaritic kardashian lifestyle financed with your amex; and B) sob stories that make you feel bad that life circumstances have delivered the girl here, e.g., needs next tuition payment for vet tech school or will be dropped from the program, recently divorced/tossed out, no money, estranged from family etc.

just go to nevada and get a hooker or date IRL (or IRL plus shit like tinder, OKC, match.com if you're old, etc.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182875)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:38 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

did you read that other SA thread where the chick kept sending him nudes months after the fact?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182878)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:41 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

i read some threads on xo about it, which is what pointed me in that direction (first mistake), but no i don't remember reading what you're talking about specifically.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182893)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:44 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

What led you to SA?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182900)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:59 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

not sure what you're asking. i feel like that's covered in the very post that you are responding to.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182965)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:01 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

I mean why not date IRL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182970)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:04 AM
Author: useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal

let's be honest irl urban dating kind of sucks in its own ways.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182978)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 23rd, 2016 11:40 PM
Author: charcoal elastic band

And is the Same Game, less explicitly

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#31012933)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:13 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

it's not necessarily an either/or and the point of this thread, in part, is trying to advocate that people do date IRL.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182986)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:43 AM
Author: Sienna University Scourge Upon The Earth

Care to describe the 2 chicks you hooked up with and the experience?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182898)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:56 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

one was 32 or 33, 7-7.5. divorced but no kids (according to her profile, and nothing about her body seemed to disconfirm at all). exchanged some messages and then texts. she was leaving the bars about the same time i was leaving work one night. exchanged texts. she came over. had sex a few times. she passed out and i went into my study to do some more work. she graciously kicked herself out in the morning, shuffling off to work somewhere that she authoritatively described as a big deal but that i'd never heard of and i could not understand her job function when she tried to explain it. she did come off reasonably smart in messages and in person.

second was 18, probably a 7.5-8, but dumb as a rock. we had plans to meet up monday evening, but on sunday she was unable to get into a concert she and her friends were going to because it was 21+ at the door and she didn't have a fake. so i audibled, she came over, we drank a bottle of wine and watched something on pay per view, then had sex several times, then both passed out. she did not kick herself out and was kind of hinting at a "maybe i'll just stay and leave after a few more hours of sleep" when i was getting ready for work this morning. had to tell her that was a no-go.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182955)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:10 PM
Author: Comical flatulent site

Congrats on your felonies!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993136)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:52 AM
Author: useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal

what "types" would you expect to find there

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182934)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:58 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

that's a perfectly reasonable point. i'd read what sounded like some positive accounts from other xo posters. my reaction to the site was not the same, so i'm just throwing my experience into the mix.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182962)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:01 AM
Author: useless fiercely-loyal son of senegal

quite fair; i think the experiences are likely pretty similar--but as you hinted at, some would think that any sex you don't expressly pay for with 7+ is awesome. irl works a little different if you have any confidence and humanity (or at least i so imagine)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182971)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:11 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

yeah. like i said elsewhere, if you're in shape or good looking or just not horrible looking and under 40 and you have no problem with what's going on you can probably do great on there.

my instinct is that most people would be happier living IRL though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182984)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:53 AM
Author: bull headed temple

34578236450237452341287659183475603985t79128364981274981273649178236840912739450981243945871263057264958763945

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182938)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:09 PM
Author: Comical flatulent site

Tell us more about the Sybian

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993117)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:14 PM
Author: aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot

i bought one

it wasnt really anything special especially for the price

a hitachi magic wand is the shit and only like 60-80

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993182)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 22nd, 2016 8:51 AM
Author: passionate bipolar french chef depressive

No one cares that it isn't legal anymore than it stops people from smoking weed or speeding.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30998643)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 23rd, 2016 11:42 PM
Author: Thriller church building

as you say

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#31012940)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:22 AM
Author: cordovan multi-billionaire idiot

How much are 7s asking for?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182822)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:29 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

i wonder how cheap they must be in prole towns

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182851)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:30 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

MFH ones want their rent paid

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182859)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:26 AM
Author: Mind-boggling Sapphire Sound Barrier

they want your credit card info upfront, dont they?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182842)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:27 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

nah man i just browsed some. surprisingly hot chicks on here

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182845)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:35 AM
Author: Mind-boggling Sapphire Sound Barrier

just checked it out. makes me sick that i found 3000+ whores in my area. so they all will pretty much sleep with an older man for money? eeew.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182870)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:42 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

Not older, just richer. Some want money for taking them out to eat

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182897)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:01 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

FYI many of the girls i talked to, and one of the ones i met IRL, said that the men on the site trend VERY much older. if you have no problem with the core idea of the site and you're a decent looking well to do 25-35 year old guy you can probably clean up.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182972)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:48 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

yeah this is accurate. both of the girls i ended up with were pretty attractive, and ended up spending basically $0 other than the $50 or whatever to be on the site in the first place.

given that despite those seemingly positive facts i'm ready to be done with it forever should tell you everything you need to know. or maybe it indicates i'm crazy/don't know a good thing. if you think it's #2, then I've got a premium account to sell you: 24 days of upper-income perversion remaining. originally $50 but for xo posters priced to move at $35.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182921)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:38 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

nah i don't think so.

i made an account with a throwaway a while ago just to goof around and look when i hears about the site. don't think i put in CC info until i actually "joined"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182876)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:29 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

did you post a pic on there?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182853)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:29 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

Thoughts on http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2upr94/betas_and_below_who_use_services_like_seeking/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182857)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:30 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

"I read an article about a med student who pretended to be loaded on seeking arrangements or some other similar website. He discussed a sugar daddy daddy arrangements with a bunch of broads but then did the old smash and dash. You could easily be on the better end of the deal if you have good game. The key would be to flash your money and use it as bait. Don't immediately lavish the woman with money but make her "earn it."

Obviously, you'd better be damn careful to avoid rape accusations. You'll probably want to carefully document everything so that you have proof should some butthurt whore get angry."

1800000

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182860)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:14 AM
Author: impertinent razzle jewess spot

You could run incredible flame on there.

Think of xo threads you could make. Think of the 180s. Think of the blank bumps.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182988)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 3:16 AM
Author: Irate Metal Chad Roast Beef

what if i told you.. it's not flame

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182996)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 30th, 2015 3:41 AM
Author: Milky mischievous potus stag film



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28228930)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:07 PM
Author: aqua arousing cuckold coffee pot



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993098)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:31 AM
Author: Milky mischievous potus stag film

Can you say you are surprised?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182862)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:42 AM
Author: Red Institution Generalized Bond

not really, no.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182895)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:32 AM
Author: Nighttime Party Of The First Part

LOL at Vice article http://www.vice.com/read/the-website-that-helps-nerdy-men-buy-girlfriends-1

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182867)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:37 AM
Author: harsh soul-stirring queen of the night associate

That first pic.... 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182874)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 30th, 2015 2:49 AM
Author: harsh soul-stirring queen of the night associate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28228758)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 22nd, 2016 8:49 AM
Author: passionate bipolar french chef depressive

She's from Ukraine.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30998633)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:09 PM
Author: Up-to-no-good filthpig

LOL at the NOWAG with the "wife" he's probably never seen naked

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993114)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 23rd, 2015 2:56 AM
Author: Bright Aromatic Striped Hyena Kitty



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28182951)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 30th, 2015 2:01 AM
Author: Razzmatazz greedy base old irish cottage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#28228523)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:03 PM
Author: Fear-inspiring ratface voyeur

The pumo going on a glorified escort site and totally getting girls to bang him for free is the new pumo having an eight dick, 300 pound bench press, and seven figure income

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993081)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 22nd, 2016 12:48 AM
Author: passionate bipolar french chef depressive



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30997069)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:09 PM
Author: pink reading party

I love seeking arrangement. it's reductionist dating. get down to the bare bones of our desires.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993122)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 21st, 2016 8:12 PM
Author: Ebony aphrodisiac public bath

not arguing with anything OP is saying ITT and actually consider it spot on. that said, i've met/slept with many cute girls through SA with much less effort than the other dating apps and no $ involved. one of them was super rich, and others seemed like they came from affluent families.

the fact that it's easier arguably makes it more toxic than the other sites/apps, even if you're good about filtering the whores/russians/insane girls

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2916920&forum_id=2#30993151)