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JUDGE POSNER ADMITS TO DECIDING CASES ON THE BASIS OF FAIRNESS, NOT LAW
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Date: September 15th, 2017 10:51 AM Author: chest-beating insecure newt https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/11/us/politics/judge-richard-posner-retirement.html
He called his approach to judging pragmatic. His critics called it lawless. “I pay very little attention to legal rules, statutes, constitutional provisions,” Judge Posner said. “A case is just a dispute. The first thing you do is ask yourself — forget about the law — what is a sensible resolution of this dispute?”
The next thing, he said, was to see if a recent Supreme Court precedent or some other legal obstacle stood in the way of ruling in favor of that sensible resolution. “And the answer is that’s actually rarely the case,” he said. “When you have a Supreme Court case or something similar, they’re often extremely easy to get around.” |
Date: September 15th, 2017 10:51 AM Author: sepia sinister ape Awesome. As they should be (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34216956) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:35 PM Author: soul-stirring menage Horseshit.
That's terrible for for predictability. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:36 PM Author: sepia sinister ape Jajajajaja (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218676) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:40 PM Author: Laughsome Ceo just predict what's fair (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218695) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:45 PM Author: soul-stirring menage Flame or not flame?
If not flame, that's largely what structured law is for.
It provides the rules for determining what's fair. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:45 PM Author: sepia sinister ape Laws aren't fair though (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218731) |
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Date: October 16th, 2017 7:12 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34458247) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 7:22 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34220653) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 10:53 AM Author: haunting chrome circlehead judges like this are why you settle litigation. i have appeared before this one federal judge where you can literally show them their own published cases saying "Point of Law X" on the exact same facts, sometimes with the exact same parties, and they will say "I think I'm going to rule Point of Law Not X because it feels right."
charlatans. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 10:56 AM Author: chest-beating insecure newt but didnt he masquerade his feeling of "right" with a plethora of legal citations ? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217001) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 1:32 PM Author: haunting chrome circlehead Posner did. The judge(s) I'm talking about rule from the bench and never issue anything in writing other than the transcript so that they can't be reversed on appeal or ever called out (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218203) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:23 AM Author: Talented lime site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217241) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:31 AM Author: drab hairless crackhouse foreskin Truff, bro. Judges like this are also why the Russian way of just firing a few AK clips into the judges car with him in it is by far the credited response. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217278) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:37 AM Author: Spruce hospital Some day you will get arrested for what you write. It will make me happy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217315) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:40 AM Author: 180 hominid voyeur (mentally ill fascist shitlib) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217333) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:42 AM Author: drab hairless crackhouse foreskin Before or after Red Dawn? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217336) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:16 PM Author: mustard chapel deer antler (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226787) |
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Date: October 16th, 2017 8:04 PM Author: curious drunken stead Had a judge say he was going to limit our depositions to 16 because his birthday was on the 16th. Seems fair (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34458568) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 10:57 AM Author: Idiotic coral trailer park preventive strike DESCRIBE the amount of projection in these statements:
----- “I pay very little attention to legal rules, statutes, constitutional provisions,” Judge Posner said. “A case is just a dispute. The first thing you do is ask yourself — forget about the law — what is a sensible resolution of this dispute?”
The next thing, he said, was to see if a recent Supreme Court precedent or some other legal obstacle stood in the way of ruling in favor of that sensible resolution. “And the answer is that’s actually rarely the case,” he said. “When you have a Supreme Court case or something similar, they’re often extremely easy to get around.”
I asked him about his critics, and he said they fell into two camps.
***
He said he had less sympathy for the second camp. “There are others who are just, you know, reactionary beasts,” he said. “They’re reactionary beasts because they want to manipulate the statutes and the Constitution in their own way. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:02 AM Author: Milky aromatic field this is why judges need to be intimidated (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217057) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:04 AM Author: Electric candlestick maker should be impeached. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217065) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:22 AM Author: Maniacal histrionic patrolman He retired. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217221) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:40 PM Author: Laughsome Ceo he retired (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218701) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 7:24 PM Author: Provocative crotch *imprisoned (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34220667) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:22 AM Author: Talented lime site this is exactly why us law is a national embarrassment (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217231) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:24 AM Author: Outnumbered business firm He has been running this schtick for literally decades. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217248) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:27 AM Author: Vigorous Lemon Hell Factory Reset Button lol @ "the law" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217260) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:32 AM Author: crimson exciting mad cow disease scourge upon the earth That's always bee his schtick (except that "fairness" to him means "economic rationality"), and the main reason he sucks. This shouldn't be a surprise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217288) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:35 AM Author: chest-beating insecure newt this doesnt suck--he is talking reality--judges dont really decide cases based on what 18 USC 2340 says, bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217302) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:36 AM Author: crimson exciting mad cow disease scourge upon the earth Yes it does, because it fucks up the law for all the other litigants that actually try to fucking follow the law (or at least act according to the law). You look at the law, and it's pretty clear on one point or another, but there's this shit Posner case out there that fucks everything up and injects uncertainty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217307) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:38 AM Author: Outnumbered business firm I agree with all this. In fairness, though, Posner's vaunted pragmatism doesn't appear to have influenced how he actually decided cases all that much, as an empirical matter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217317) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:53 PM Author: Spectacular apoplectic lettuce link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218779) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 3:48 PM Author: Outnumbered business firm Daniel A. Farber, Do Theories of Statutory Interpretation Matter--A Case Study, 94 Nw. U. L. Rev. 1409 (1999), Available at: http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/facpubs/1724 |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:42 AM Author: chest-beating insecure newt But aren't you assuming that there is actually a formalist conception of law? Isn't law at the end of the day a matter of interpretation?
like whether a doctor violated the standard of care in a malpractice suit--isn't that all interpretation? |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:43 AM Author: crimson exciting mad cow disease scourge upon the earth That doesn't mean any old interpretation is just as valid as any other interpretation. Jesus are you still a law student after 10 years? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217350) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:49 AM Author: Outnumbered business firm Careful he is leading you down a subthread wasteland. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217381) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:53 PM Author: Spectacular apoplectic lettuce (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218782) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:35 AM Author: Sable house-broken black woman It would be funny to see Posner's reaction from the other side of the bench when some judge told him "I'm not concerned about what the law says, I'm looking for the reasonable solution here. Also I will bring in my own evidence from outside the record to support my conclusion." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217303) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:36 AM Author: Spruce hospital Old England had courts of equity. If you could not get justice in the court of law, you went to the court of equity. This isn't all that earth shattering. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217308) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:38 AM Author: drab hairless crackhouse foreskin And in Russia you just blow up the dude giving you a problem. Makes for a mich more civil society when you just kill dudes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217324) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:48 AM Author: Talking cobalt dysfunction rehab (pudgy dork with a compliance job) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217377) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:21 AM Author: startled indecent trust fund (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34222985) |
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Date: September 17th, 2017 5:42 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34231097) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:39 AM Author: Outnumbered business firm That's not at all how the equity - law divide worked. Wtf. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217325) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:36 PM Author: soul-stirring menage So let equity swallow it all?
Maybe.
But even the exercise of equity is (or at least should be) subject to principles of law. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 11:49 AM Author: rusted exhilarant school cafeteria Just like every other judge in Amerikwa (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34217382) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 1:18 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218046) |
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Date: September 20th, 2017 10:59 AM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34250150) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:34 PM Author: Dull volcanic crater This "forget about the law" thinking is how you end up with rulings like the Title VII case where the Seventh Circuit said a law that explicitly bans gender and racial discrimination also implicitly bans discrimination based on sexual orientation, even though the law doesn't say anything about that.
Why even have a legislature if the judges are just going to do whatever they want, laws and Constitution be damned? If Posner's retirement means we get a new judge who will predictably and faithfully follow the law, then good riddance. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:50 PM Author: crimson exciting mad cow disease scourge upon the earth To be fair, sexual orientation discrimination is gender-based discrimination in 90% of cases. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34218764) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:37 PM Author: Ruby Half-breed The "law" States that if your 6 year old son demands to be a girl you will have the state take him and feed him estrogen if you refuse.
Ljl at our "laws", what a joke.
I love reactionary dandies like this judge. |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 2:54 PM Author: razzmatazz mahogany boltzmann cuckold OMG THAT'S SO ZEN AND ICONOCLASTIC. SO 'PRAGMATIC'! HEHEHEHE |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 3:49 PM Author: 180 hominid voyeur moar like pozner amirite (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34219138) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 7:28 PM Author: razzmatazz mahogany boltzmann cuckold 'THE LAW' IS FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE, THE PLEBES. I AM ABOVE THE LAW. I AM PURE. I ABIDE BY A HIGHER TRANSENDENT STANDARD OF COMSIC JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS. OOOOH LOOK AT MY ROBES! I'M LIKE A WIZARD! |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 7:32 PM Author: Cruel-hearted cerebral tanning salon imagine having a 7th cir argument in front of Posner or Easterbrook.
you'd tell your client, "look, they are going to ignore all the facts and law we've been arguing about for years. they're just going to do whatever they want. and there's a good chance they will trash me, trash opposing counsel, or both of us, just for fun." |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 8:06 PM Author: Outnumbered business firm (Albert Alschuler) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34220841) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:32 AM Author: very tactful brass national affirmative action Not earth shattering legal advice. Counseled clients into settlements for similar reasons in 9th circuit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34223018) |
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Date: September 17th, 2017 6:15 PM Author: tantric space God, the terror of having to make a practical argument. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34231248) |
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Date: September 15th, 2017 9:42 PM Author: soul-stirring menage Dear Posner,
Did anyone ever tell you that you think far too much of your legal writing abilities? |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 8:53 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt elaborate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226371) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 9:56 PM Author: soul-stirring menage The best legal writing has a strong, logical, well structured heart.
In addition to playing fast and loose with the facts, Posner sacrifices much of that in service to his goal of telling simple stories for the masses.
That's not a call for jargon or any such nonsense. Posner simply isn't as good a writer as some other notable judges, but Posner doesn't seem to understand that. |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 9:59 PM Author: Outnumbered business firm (Selya) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226694) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:04 PM Author: soul-stirring menage A nut from a different tree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226723) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:09 PM Author: Outnumbered business firm I'm partial to Friendly's method of writing opinions, but it is an acquired taste.
I'd rank Easterbrook over Posner on the Seventh Circuit. This includes both opinions and scholarship.
Some DC Cir. judges are good, but boring.
To name some ladies of the bar, I've been favorably impressed by King (5th Cir.) and Kearse (2d Cir.).
Did you ever try to read Posner's N.D. Il. damages opinions (he sought to sit by designation a few times)? |
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Date: September 17th, 2017 7:23 PM Author: puce parlor yarmulke Kill yourself. Selya is awesome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34231577) |
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Date: September 17th, 2017 7:35 PM Author: Outnumbered business firm ? I like Selya. Was just trying to think of who might level this type of charge at Posner. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34231633) |
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Date: September 17th, 2017 7:47 PM Author: puce parlor yarmulke *heaves sigh of relief* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34231675) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:54 PM Author: submissive pink rigor useless brakes This is why he got magna-pwned. Prescient HLS faculty wanted to put him in his place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226953) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 9:26 PM Author: titillating state regret Kennedy, J., concurring (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226532) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:46 PM Author: Hairraiser snowy locale Good to have a smart guy inside the judiciary who's willing to speak up when something doesn't make sense. You guys want judges like Scalia who talk about the letter of the law disingenuously and reach whatever result they want? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34226906) |
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Date: September 16th, 2017 10:56 PM Author: razzmatazz mahogany boltzmann cuckold can't stop lolling at 'the law' what a joke |
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Date: September 20th, 2017 11:00 AM Author: Ivory Shaky Box Office Prole think there was something about this on last Saturday's LSAT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34250158) |
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Date: September 28th, 2017 3:23 PM Author: chest-beating insecure newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3732746&forum_id=2#34318718) |