The Corrosion of High School Debate (America Magazine -- debatemos get ITT)
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:13 PM Author: Exhilarant Seedy School Cafeteria Toilet Seat
"The writer (and former debate wunderkind) Ben Lerner once wrote, “Americans are always getting ‘spread’ in their daily lives.”"
I like that quote (and not just for its potential ass-cheeks pun). I did extemp' speaking in high school and thought it was a lot better than LD and policy, which were dominated by speed-talkers. It's definitely helpful for a young kid to learn how to speak to an audience. I couldn't stand the tournaments though. They were worse than a Harry-Potter fantasy camp. During down-times, I used to sneak into empty classrooms and watch college football.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409265) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:42 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
everyone thinks they rape everyone else
a GREAT debater can win at TOC and NFLs, that's my point, they can win when the judge is a junior at some college and knows all the hip high school approaches and lets the teams keep time and is chill and whatever (i.e. the good judges) and can ALSO win when it's some mom who wants you to "slow down"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409577)
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Date: October 10th, 2017 3:02 PM Author: Insane Gunner
No, I would repeatedly rape them in arguments because they didn't have a grasp on even the most basic facts of the discussion on topics like affirmative action, capital punishment, gun control, immigration, etc.
But because they did debate they weren't aware enough to know what they don't know.
These are people who I outscored on the LSAT by 10 points, so I feel pretty confident saying that even they would admit that they were in over their heads.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409720) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 3:25 PM Author: Maniacal hairraiser personal credit line
That's not a fair characterization.
The Greeks had a rhetorical concept called "topoi," which referred to something like a standard set of responses, issues, or frameworks for responding to arguments.
Debate helps people learn to apply that sort of tool, which is useful in all sorts of real-life issue-spotting environments.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409896) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 3:40 PM Author: Maniacal hairraiser personal credit line
No, despite the application of standard frameworks, it's not "churn[ing] through conventional talking points rapidly without considering the substance of any of them." And that process, contrary to your suggestion, is valuable.
And, no, my response doesn't "prove your point" because my response wasn't a "conventional talking point," and you had never even heard the word "topoi" before today.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34410031)
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:24 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
Angry I wasted time reading this. I thought he was going to get to the biggest issue: the black kids who make debate a meta game about the nature of debate. No longer kritiks, but the performance-based affirmative shit.
Spreading? That's his issue? It's been around for decades. Good spreaders are intelligible and clear and that's why they're great. Shitty ones suck. Judges should knock them for sucking. But it's great to have a lot of arguments out there and I'd also add plenty of teams stick with just a few arguments for depth. It's a matter of strategy.
The fact is, policy debate remains the most PRESTIGIOUS and RIGOROUS activity and should stay that way. Even if it's insular, it's a fucking cult you either join and love or stay away.
Writer of the article is being gay.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409376) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:49 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
my thesis is above: it's an insular elitist activity and mostly to them it's clear and intelligible
but I do think the elite TOC level debaters can more clearly spread and it is more accessible to a larger population
many spreads are just mumbling
who cares about spreading, the card's tag is all that matters
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409626)
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:50 PM Author: Crusty hell friendly grandma
CR
Debate was hijacked by lib insanity and stupid race-based performance that literally anyone can do. And, this happened like 15 years ago. I have no clue what goes on in debate rounds these days.
This article could have been written in 1985 or 1995.
At one time, debate was preftigious because it was insular and it gave smart creative kids an outlet to study and learn new things and hang out with one another.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409630) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:51 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
cr cr
I was so certain this would be about uppity blacks winning debates because they HIP HOP the resolution
it's ruining college debate and will probably ruin high school debate
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409644) |
Date: October 10th, 2017 2:28 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
THIS THREAD LEADS TO A DECREASE IN THE ECONOMY
SHELL 98
NUKE WAR BABY
*runs nuke triv*
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409435) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:33 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
this is definitely a link to several Ks
WITH PRE-FIAT IMPLICATIONS
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409494)
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Date: October 10th, 2017 3:32 PM Author: Maniacal hairraiser personal credit line
"lol at thinking that policy debate makes you smart compared to philosophy classes or actual STEM fields."
That's a strange argument.
Policy debaters have majors, too.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409963) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:46 PM Author: Galvanic bipolar kitty cat locale
Date: October 10th, 2017 2:45 PM
Author: gerald_(acp)
the research, speaking, writing, thinking skills you get from ELITE CX DEBATE is better than literally anything you can do at a young age to become a masterman
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409606) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 2:53 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
I can tell you were the kinda guy who went for stock issues
to be honest, I hated kritiks that weren't pre-fiat (e.g. saying the N word in the round) b/c I thought they cheapened debate ... I think good old DAs and CPs and arguments about T and case can be rigorous and allow for plenty of education about policies ... frankly IRL debates are mostly solvency arguments with CPs, and I think great policy debaters could do the same thing
activity changed with the introduction of the K, but it's neither the K nor spreading, rather, it is the performance art shit, that truly makes policy debate ridiculous
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409657) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 3:17 PM Author: Brindle affirmative action
there were Ks, nuke war Ds, and lots of spreading when I debated -- I'm fine with most of it -- I found the proliferation of non-pre-fiat Ks to be disturbing just like I think the use of laptops today is kind of weird
I think HS debate was pretty much fine until some point in the 00s
I have no problem with it being an insular, elitist activity, because there are two different alternatives and people from Brookings, SD (I recall they did well at NFLs) should consider PF debate instead
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409839) |
Date: October 10th, 2017 3:02 PM Author: magical turquoise mediation
xo poasters: "Those AA black people are RUINING debate, and here's why!"
*talks like Micro Machines man for 10 minutes unintelligibly"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409723) |
Date: October 10th, 2017 3:18 PM Author: Maniacal hairraiser personal credit line
"High school debate today is basically an intellectual game, not an exercise in truth-seeking."
And football is a physical game, not an exercise in productive labor.
"It has been turned into something that can easily be scored."
Like sports?
"This eliminates the complexity and intricacy of real discourse about real issues."
Sort of. The level of nuance he might like to see in a round can be difficult to convey, but policy debaters *do* tends to get a strong education on the topic.
"If debate is a game, then the execution of a “spread” is like a well-timed blitz in football.?
Virtually every game has its tricks.
"Convincing a judge that your opponents’ arguments would cause human extinction is equivalent to a successful Hail Mary pass."
And?
If you think one of the primary goals of policy debate should be to prepare eloquent public speakers for a general audience, then spreading is bad. That's a fair criticism.
But if policy debate is something more like an exercise in research, strategy, and information processing, then it has been doing a pretty good job for several decades -- even with the introduction of kritiks.
But how could he ignore the relatively recent rise of performance teams? That's a bigger shift than the decades-old introduction of spreading.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409842) |
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Date: October 10th, 2017 4:03 PM Author: Galvanic bipolar kitty cat locale
Comparisons to football don't completely work, because football is actually fun to watch, and physical excellence is generally considered good on its own merits.
"Debate" is supposed to be valuable because it cultivates rhetoric and the informed discussion of real issues. Modern debate barely does either, or at least it doesn't do it efficiently. Do people REALLY have a strong understanding about why Africa is failing just because there was a resolution about aid to Africa? I'm not convinced, from seeing it first-hand.
Admitting that debate is just a "game" is to concede the point at issue, because debate as a game is fucking stupid. Being able to spread effectively may be a "skill," but it's not an impressive one. If debate didn't exist and were just being created now, nobody would want to create the event it has become, or the event it has been for the past 30+ years.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34410194) |
Date: October 10th, 2017 3:26 PM Author: Spectacular dingle berry
The anti-spreading crowd doesn’t seem to understand that debate is a game. Like football, there are different strategies and approaches. With debaters and judges capable of it, spreading simply increases the number of arguments available in a round and thereby raises the complexity of the strategy. A 1AR that knows how to crush an argument in two devastating points (choosing to “drop” 6 bullshit distraction arguments) is a thing of beauty.
But there are other ways to run an offense. “Slow”/standard debate can be interesting and strategic, too. And it places a premium on a different set of oratory skills that are another facet of the game.
Debate isn’t about some thesis-level engagement on deep issues. You want a peer reviewed study on the effects of spending political capital on drilling in ANWR? Take that nerd shit somewhere else. It’s time to stop playing The Price is Right and start playing Saving Private Ryan (Mead 98).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3759727&forum_id=2#34409901) |
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