Shelby Foote's Civil War narrative
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Date: October 13th, 2017 12:38 PM Author: Ivory bearded pit
Anyone else ever read this?
It's pretty 180. All sorts of cool stories and nice details on the battles. Hoping to check out some of the battle sites st some point.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34433708) |
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Date: December 16th, 2017 12:47 PM Author: Elite dilemma
Attrition made Southern defeat inevitable if Northern will was absolute, but I don't think it really was. Some additional major setbacks would have made a rise in pro-peace sentiment quite plausible. Even in late 1863 and 1864, there's a lot of interesting what-ifs:
-What if Pemberton doesn't horribly bungle the Vicksburg defense, and at least allows his army to get out rather than losing the whole command in a siege?
-What if Johnston was more proactive with his own army, perhaps attempting a recapture of Memphis or a relief of Port Hudson? (if Port Hudson is held, the Vicksburg victory wouldn't matter because the Mississippi would still be plugged)
-What if Bragg is more decisive following his win at Chickamauga and actually retakes Chattanooga, possibly with many Union prisoners? The entire 1864 campaign is radically different if Sherman starts it off by having to simply recapture everything taken in 1863.
-What if Bragg simply doesn't horribly botch his defense of Missionary Ridge?
-What if Jubal Early reaches D.C. just a day earlier, or Union reinforcements arrived just a day later? Could he have overwhelmed its undermanned defenses and torched the city, causing a gargantuan morale hit to the Union cause?
-What if Grant's exposed flank at the Wilderness is actually attacked, and he suffers a Chancellorsville-like rout? Would the Overland Campaign have gone differently?
Basically, there's a lot going on, even besides the big question of "what if Lee doesn't throw away a third of his army in a doomed Northern invasion?" The South was unlikely to win, but there are so many close calls in the war, and so many instances where they made big mistakes or were really unlucky, that it's interesting to speculate what would have happened if they were just a little more effective.
Hell, there's even weird quirks like the fact Grant was nearly killed in a freak accident shortly after arriving in D.C. Does a dead Grant change the outcome of the war at all?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34935039) |
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Date: December 16th, 2017 1:32 PM Author: Elite dilemma
I disagree; I think Lee's two advances north are his two biggest mistakes. The first was at least understandable and had better odds of working out well, but the second was just asking for catastrophe (and many people pointed it out at the time). Even if Lee had "won" at Gettysburg, what then? The Potomac is only fordable well north of Washington and of course he had no navy. Washington itself at the time was very heavily fortified and could be supplied by sea, so it would be almost impossible to capture even if he could get around Meade's army (something a lot of hypos on this ignore). Everywhere he goes he'll encounter a hostile rather than friendly populace, and the North can muster thousands of militia and the like to hinder his march and limit his foraging ability. Maybe he reaches Philadelphia or Baltimore and captures them, but that could easily have become a trap from which he couldn't escape.
Lee wasn't the only commander to try invading the North or raiding in force. It was also attempted by Bragg, Early, Price, and even Morgan if you want to count his cavalry raid. Pretty much all of them ran into the same problems: Once in enemy territory, they were rapidly outnumbered by fast-concentrating Union forces, their own innate advantages evaporated, and they were either crushed or had to rapidly retreat to avoid annihilation. Early's was the one that came closest to succeeding, and that was because it had a very limited goal (sneak up on Washington and draw forces away from Richmond), relied on surprise, and rapidly ended as soon as things started to go sour.
The Civil War occurred in a period of warfare that gave the defender a massive advantage. The South was defending, yet repeatedly it insisted on attacking. They made strategic offensives that were doomed to failure, and even at the operational and tactical level they routinely threw away good limited victories with excessive follow-up attacks (Shiloh, Stones River, Malvern Hill, and even Chancellorsville are all major examples). I think in most cases these attacks were a mistake, and it made their defeat inevitable.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34935310) |
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Date: October 25th, 2017 3:20 PM Author: Elite dilemma
I think my favorite segment was the two-chapter run covering Shiloh and the Seven Days; it's not surprising that the Civil War novel Foote wrote was about Shiloh.
"'General - are you hurt?' he cried.
"'Yes, and I fear seriously,' Johnston said.
"None of the rest of his staff was there, the general having sent them off on various missions. Riding with one arm across Johnston's shoulders to prevent his falling, Hrris guided the bay into a nearby ravine, where he eased the pale commander to the ground and began unfastening his clothes in an attempt to find the wound. he had no luck until he noticed the right boot full of blood, and then he found it: a neat hold drilled just above the hollow of the knee, marking where the femoral artery had been severed. This called for a knowledge of tourniquets, but the governor knew nothing of such things. The man who knew most about them, Johnston's staff physician, had been ordered by the general to attend to a group of Federal wounded he encountered on his way to the far right. When the doctor protested, Johnson cut him off: 'These men were our enemies a moment ago. They are our prisoners now. Take care of them.' So Harris was left to do what he could to staunch the bright red flow of blood.
"He could do little. Brandy might help, he thought, but when he poured some into the hurt man's mouth it ran back out again. Presently a colonel, Johnston's chief of staff, came hurrying into the ravine. But he could do nothing either. He knelt down facing the general. 'Johnston, do you know me? Johnston, do you know me?' he kept asking, over and over, nudging the general's shoulder as he spoke.
"But Johnston did not know him. Johnston was dead."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34526609) |
Date: December 16th, 2017 11:05 AM Author: Ivory bearded pit
Working through the second volume now. Just read about battle of Chancellorsville. Pretty crazy move by Lee/Jackson to split the army and gonthat far to get at the Unionist flank.
Is it worthwhile to visit some of these battle sites? My wife really isn’t into history, so would she be completely bored?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34934406) |
Date: December 16th, 2017 1:28 PM Author: Deep Bisexual Regret Corner
Read these books several years ago and just started reading them again. They are 180.
Anyone else have family that served in in the Confederate Army? My great, great . . . grandfather and his brother served in the Richmond Howitzers and received a parole pass at Appomattox.
There is good family lore and a somewhat recent scandal concerning a family member that stole great, great . . . grandfather's sword. When I was in high school, my cousin and I were drunk as fuck and made the brilliant decision to break into the offending family members house, steal the sword back, and give it to the rightful owner. We actually went through with it, but couldn't find the sword.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34935269)
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Date: December 16th, 2017 1:50 PM Author: Shivering corn cake
Xo Shelby Foote was a national treasure: https://www.c-span.org/person/?shelbyfoote
Way better than the cuck TLS McPherson.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#34935445) |
Date: April 20th, 2018 2:06 PM Author: Ivory bearded pit
Finally finished the third volume. A few things that stood out:
The cat and mouse between Lee and Grant in VA as Grant closed in on him was fascinating reading. It seems like Grant lost patience a few times and led his men into frontal assaults where they got butchered.
Lee/Grant in VA is basically proto-WW1 battles on a much smaller scale right?
On a per-man basis Bedford Forest was probably the most efficient in the war. He just completely raised hell the entire time.
I think it might’ve been the second book but reading about all of Grant’s schemes to take over Vicksburg was great. The large amount of maps in the book really helped put it all together.
Joe Johnson seemed pretty useless the entire war. The Southern Mcellen?
Politics was shitty back then too. Lincoln sending home thousands of soldiers on furlough to go vote for him was lol.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#35882337) |
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Date: May 31st, 2019 2:46 PM Author: Ivory bearded pit
Glad you finished. I liked the end as one who is not too sympathetic to most of the confederates. It’s always been interesting to me to see how negotiations and panic happens when it starts to become clear that a cause is lost.
I’m going to travel to a few battle sites this summer. Thinking Chickamuaga and Vicksburg.
Closest thing to as good as this that ive read since was Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The amount of inside first hand sources the author had was incredible. Fully recommend the book
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3763033&forum_id=2#38320030) |
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