Leiter's anti-top-14 rant . . .
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:46 PM Author: rose deranged nibblets
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/03/from_the_bowels.html
"Here's the bizarre part: the only rationale for this grouping is that all these schools have been ranked in "the top 14" by U.S. News and World Report since roughly the early-to-mid-1990s!"
I think that the more likely rationale is that these are the schools with truly national placement. Or could it be that no rational grouping of top schools would include a school that would hire an asshole as big as Leiter?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377739) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:47 PM Author: Magical boyish telephone parlour
"I think that the more likely rationale is that these are the schools with truly national placement."
Um, no, actually the reason why they're the T14 is because they've always been the "Top 14," whatever that's supposed to mean.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377748) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:48 PM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
"Here's the bizarre part: the only rationale for this grouping is that all these schools have been ranked in "the top 14" by U.S. News and World Report since roughly the early-to-mid-1990s!"
Yeah, that's the only reason. Whatever you say Brian...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377759) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
Another gem.
"Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier.""
Yeah, lives have been ruined because the T14 concept has caused people to turn down Texas for GULC. Whatever.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377793) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM Author: transparent know-it-all pocket flask lay
So it's ridiculous to say top 14, but "top 15"? No problem:
"It is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377866)
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: onyx awkward space mad-dog skullcap
"In the real world of lawyers, judges, and law professors, it is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp".
Why isn't 15 from the "real world" just as arbitrary than the 14 from the "unreal world"?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377820)
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:36 AM Author: Ocher exciting quadroon prole
WHere did the Top 14 as an expression first start being widely used? I remember it on the old PR Board (I'm old, I have had many different user names).
Is that where it first started being commonly used?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379123) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:17 PM Author: rusted main people
It is pretty halarious to assert a "conventional wisdom" where none exists. Every person--judge, lawyer, professor, or student--I've EVER heard refer to top schools has used the terms "top fourteen," "top five," or "top ten."
I guess it wouldn't surprise me if people at Texas use the "top fifteen" phraseology, as it would be self-serving to link themselves with top schools. Perhaps Leiter has just taken an anecdote that applies to his own life and assumed it must also be true elsewhere. If that's the case, it's truly amazing that this guy has a job.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377992) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:16 AM Author: rusted main people
You might want to re-read my post. I didn't say that they commonly said "top fourteen." Rather, I listed three phrases that I believe to be far more common among practioners and students alike than "top fifteen." Two of those phrases were two of the three that you mention.
My point, which was quite clear, was that there is no conventional wisdom in favor of "top fifteen."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379366) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 1:55 AM Author: Nofapping Kitchen Preventive Strike
Yeah, I clarified the post.
I think people have different definitions of what is a "Top 10" school, but most will probably fall within that category in at least some people's minds.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5387529) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 9:58 PM Author: Disgusting orchestra pit Subject: I totally ignored the T14
I totally ignored the petty T14 law school rankings by USNews when applying to law school.
I applied to a wide variety of schools based on my own research available from the ABA and additional reported statistics from the schools themselves along with indpendant third parties.
I don't care about rankings. I cared only about my future as a lawyer. I looked for schools which would place me in spots that would make for a lucrative career and perhaps interesting career.
I also valued the actual quality of teaching faculty and student quality - again completely ignoring rankings.
Imagine my surprise as my acceptances started to roll in and other law applicant geeks would say 'wow thats a T14 school'.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377847) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
"I don't care about rankings. I cared only about my future as a lawyer. I looked for schools which would place me in spots that would make for a lucrative career and perhaps interesting career."
How were you able to determine this?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377860) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM Author: Aphrodisiac Office
I almost forgot why Brian Leiter hates us. And then I glanced at the top of the page and found a useful link explaining why he hates us.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377802) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM Author: Frum ungodly spot
That dipshit needs to keep up with the times. We killed that "sweet 16" nonsense a while ago.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377812) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: marvelous cordovan hell faggotry
My god, this guy's obsession with law school rankings is even more absurd than this board's.
He opens with this line pronouncing the existence and validity of a Top 15:
"In the real world of lawyers, judges, and law professors, it is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation (though not necessarily in national placement)."
And then closes with this gem:
"Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier."
So, Top 14 = literally meaningless categorie that may damage careers and lives. But Top 15 = truth? Okay.
What a pathetically self-conscious UT troll. I can't believe Chicago invited this guy to visit.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377856) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:37 PM Author: Lilac Brunch Pistol
I promise you, an elaborate, legendary PWNing is already in the works among certain students....
I can't say more, since we're always TWO SUBPOENAS AWAY from disaster here on XOXO.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5381607) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:09 PM Author: Dun market
Leiter makes a lot of sense. I agree with him. His rankings based solely on student body is also a much better, and seemingly more in the style of xo, ranking system.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377936) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:12 PM Author: onyx awkward space mad-dog skullcap
I'm happy he compiles lists of all sort. They are interesting.
He, on the other hand, is a big fricking prick.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5377956) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:33 PM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
It's especially funny when he claims someone left the school when in reality they haven't at all. Like when he listed Geoffrey Hazard as a Hastings prof and not a Penn prof in his 2005 faculty rankings. And yet, in March 2006, on the Penn Law front page:
http://www.law.upenn.edu/
According to Professor Geoffrey Hazard, Kentucky's Assistant County Attorney Ballard may have violated ethical rules for lawyers prohibiting deception when he disguised his involvement in a letter that lead to the ousting of Judge Stewart. The Courier Journal (2/26/06). Article.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378126)
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:21 PM Author: Spruce nursing home turdskin
Why's this guy catch so much flak on here? He doesn't seem to be any douchier than the average poster, and he's certainly more successful.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378028) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:32 PM Author: transparent know-it-all pocket flask lay
"but it depends what 'national' means, i suppose."
I guess, but he should have accounted in some way for the concentration of elite firms in some cities. You can't assess national placement power by including 5 Texas firms, 3 Seattle firms, 3 Atlanta firms, and only 3 from New York, which is by far the largest legal market (not to mention only 3 from Chi and 3 from DC).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378110)
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:59 PM Author: Electric ivory state
He picked FIVE Texas firms?
What a douche.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5381762) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:36 PM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
Don't forget the fact that his "study" completely excludes *ALL* associates at Cravath and SullCrom (those firms don't include associates in their Martindale listing, which is what he used).
So basically his NY dataset just includes Wachtell, and Cravath/SullCrom partners.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378149) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 10:38 PM Author: transparent know-it-all pocket flask lay
Didn't know that. Awesome.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378164)
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:16 AM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
You're greatly underestimating the impact leaving out Cravath and SullCrom's associates had on these rankings. Let's use Columbia and Cravath as an example. I'm going to cite to Sullivan here instead of Leiter because Sullivan made his dataset publically available online, used the same methodology as Leiter, and I gathered data on Cravath from its website around the same time Sullivan got his data on Cravath from Martindale.
Sullivan's dataset has only 19 Columbia and 21 NYU grads working at Cravath:
http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/data.htm
Now go to http://www.cravath.com and use their attorney search to find out how many Columbia and NYU grads really work there. As of today, the search turns up 82 Columbia grads and 56 NYU grads.
Hmm, 19 vs. 82, and 21 vs. 56... and that's just the difference for Cravath! Throw in the lost SullCrom associates and the gap becomes even bigger.
Now, do you *really* think that didn't have an impact on Leiter (and Sullivan's) rankings? There's absolutely no way Columbia would only be #7 and NYU would only be #11 if Cravath and SullCrom had their entire firms counted, as Leiter did with every other firm in his study.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379923) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 4:28 AM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
I think you're misunderstanding the problem here. Most of the ranking was determined by taking the total # of lawyers they found at all those firms and then adjusting it per capita (he wasn't adjusting for regional preferences or anything like I did -- it was straight total laywers divided by total students).
You're right, Columbia and NYU have a more regional focus -- which is precisely *why* completely elimining Cravath and SullCrom's associates from the dataset makes Columbia and NYU appear very low ranked! In other words, Texas and other schools got the benefit of having all lawyers at their "regional" firms counted, while Columbia/NYU/Cornell/Penn and other schools that send most of their grads to NYC were at a very severe handicap, since most of the lawyers in two of their three "regional" firms were not counted at all.
Even if this exact same shitty methodology was used, but with the missing lawyers included, Columbia and NYU would be ranked much higher. If Columbia placement was measured as 1262 / 578 instead of 1162 / 578 (assuming 100 CLS alums at Cravath and SullCrom weren't counted), it would've made a pretty big difference (probably putting CLS at #4 or #5, which is where you'd expect it to be).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379941) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 1:45 AM Author: Mind-boggling step-uncle's house round eye
"Why's this guy catch so much flak on here?"
He's the king of douches, and a total windbag. Rather than carrying on intellectual discourse he operates via ad hominem attacks and threats of lawsuits. This is disgraceful conduct, *especially* for a law school prof. Plus, he's full of crap on numerous levels.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379500) |
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:01 PM Author: azure chest-beating water buffalo
How can Leiter possibly say that the top 14 doesn't exist and is "literally meaningless"? Here, for example, is a very learned expert who says quite definitively that there is a "top 14" law schools.
This expert says that "Arguably competitive with the bottom end of the top 14 are such schools as Duke University, the University of California at Los Angeles and the University of Southern California."
So, according to this most learned and wise expert, there is in fact a "top 14."
In fact, this most wise and brilliant expert says that "For purposes of students thinking about teaching careers, the most important factor is the scholarly distinction of the faculty. There are some 180 accredited law schools in the U.S., but the top 14 law schools in terms of faculty quality are (in alphabetical order) the following:"
Who is this wise and brilliant expert who so devastatingly proves that Leiter is dead wrong when he denies the existence of the "top 14"?
Check it out:
http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2004/lawsch.htm
s3lf-pwn3d!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378389)
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:22 PM Author: azure chest-beating water buffalo
It has Texas, of course. Plus, it's faculty quality not overall quality. I don't know who he drops out of the 14 to get Texas in.
His schtik is so obvious. Top 14 is meaningless but top 15 is universally accepted. Who's missing from the top 14 as the rest of the world knows it? Texas.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378590) |
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Date: March 19th, 2006 11:26 PM Author: azure chest-beating water buffalo
Columbia University
University of California, Berkeley
Cornell University
University of Chicago
Georgetown University
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Harvard University
University of Pennsylvania
New York University
University of Texas, Austin
Northwestern University
University of Virginia
Stanford University
Yale University
No Duke or UCLA
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5378620) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:43 AM Author: Flirting Wine University Partner
You guys may not like him, and yes, he is an unbelievable ass, but that doesn't make everything he says wrong. He has a point here. The same 16 schools have been ranked in the top 16 slots, but that doesn't catch on. Why 14? Moreover, the US news rankings suck. They are a senseless mismash of different criteria. It is pretty sad that this ranking system, simply because it is a readily available ranking, has come to define a group of schools as being better than the ones below. Is there a precipitous drop in reputation or placement at 14? I really don't think so.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379175) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:47 AM Author: azure chest-beating water buffalo
You can't say "top 14" is utterly meaningless and also claim that in real world everyone uses "top 15." Then when you think about why he switches from "absurd" to "universally accepted" when he moves from 14 to 15, you see that the only basis for his 180 degree switch is that his school now makes the list. It's pathetically transparent.
To top it, you go to his own site and see that he invokes the concept of a "top 14" repeatedly when it favors UT.
This guy, by the way, is supposed to be a philosopher.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379196) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
"The same 16 schools have been ranked in the top 16 slots, but that doesn't catch on."
Except they haven't. The Top 14 has been in the same slots for something like 15 years, while this "Sweet 16" has only been intact for 5 or 6 years (if even that). Also, every school in the Top 14 has been in the Top 10 at one point, while none of the other schools have (in fact that's how the term originated -- the Top 14 is not the Top 14 because it's always been the Top 14 in US News, but because every school in the Top 14 is arguably a Top 10 school, while that's not the case for Texas, UCLA, etc.).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379248) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 1:40 PM Author: Soul-stirring area wagecucks
"this 'Sweet 16' has only been intact for 5 or 6 years (if even that)."
It's actually been in tact for 8 years (1999-2007).
The rest of your post is 100% true though.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515148) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM Author: talking knife location
"Is there a precipitous drop in reputation or placement at 14?"
I think there is a real difference in placement between 14 and 15. There's certainly a significant difference between 14 and 20.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379249) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:20 AM Author: mahogany out-of-control cumskin personal credit line
did leiter even go to texas? Didnt you go to Michigan? The douche lost all credibility when he threatened to sue us.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379378) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Abusive embarrassed to the bone tanning salon ape
i know this reply is several months late, but this seems like a very odd post to me.
"are you going to refuse to write a cease and desist letter that threatens subpoenas when the underlying action that's threatened is dubious?"
this is what i don't understand. Leiter was not representing anyone except himself; there was no ethical obligation -- nor even profit motive -- to write the C&D's. so when he makes a particularly questionable threat, he deserves all the blame; there is no client whose interests he is bound to represent.
maybe i'm just not understanding your criticism.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515870) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: Nofapping Kitchen Preventive Strike
I love how he retains the idea of a "Top 15", though, with Texas in the group.
CHEFHYPOCRITPWNED!!!!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379868) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: self-centered dashing dilemma goyim
"It seemed to be the operative premise in Justice Thomas's dissent in Grutter when he singled out Michigan, UVA, Boalt, and Texas as the top state schools"
I guess Justice Thomas is only a part of the "lunatic fringe" when he's not writing about law school rankings.
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1139002920.shtml
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379869) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:55 AM Author: Cyan Wonderful Theater Stage
I wonder if that post was intended as a parody of himself. It just seems too absurd to be real given everything else he's written.
Then again, Leiter isn't exactly a bastion of consistency:
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1142728893.shtml
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379895) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM Author: Nofapping Kitchen Preventive Strike
PS: It's sad he cited LSD for the T14 concept on the internet, and not XO.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5379871) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: onyx awkward space mad-dog skullcap
Unrelated, but interesting: http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2005/07/if_i_were_brian.html
Leiter outs someone in the comments to a blog entry:
"Try 'former' friend. What happened to you, Steve? Does your ex, Scott--who was always the nice one--know that you've sunk to this level?
I always admired your philosophical acumen, and your contrarian views in aesthetics, and think it a travesty of our profession that you did not secure permanent employment in it.
Posted by: BL at July 10, 2005 01:10 PM
"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5381693) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 2:00 PM Author: Lilac Brunch Pistol
What an insufferable asshole.
EDIT: I re-read it and now I genuinely HATE Brian Leiter. Previously I had a hearty, good-natured contempt for the man. Now I want to see this guy pwn3d when he comes to Chicago in the worst way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5381772) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:32 PM Author: Brass spectacular pit people who are hurt
holy shit.
gto, you need to add this to 'why leiter hates us and why we hate him.'
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382423) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 2:54 PM Author: citrine fighting elastic band
honestly, what the fuck is wrong with this guy?
has anybody here taken a class with him who can comment on his in-class behavior?
Just his employent alone at UT removes any chance of it ever making it into the top 14
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382111)
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Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 PM Author: Smoky liquid oxygen
I didn't apply to Texas or Chicago because of Leiter. Don't these schools realize how much damage he does to their reputations?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382654) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:09 PM Author: marvelous cordovan hell faggotry
What the hell is wrong with this guy, seriously? He acts like a 6 year old.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382762) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:31 PM Author: Anal obsidian indirect expression
He left out one rationale for the T14 rationale that is wholly logical and morally justifiable: it turns TTTexas people red with sputtering rage.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5382936) |
Date: March 20th, 2006 9:59 PM Author: underhanded claret dog poop native
I saw Leiter at the Chicago-Midway airport wearing a UChicago hat. I approached him to ask if he was Brian Leiter of the Univeristy of Texas and he responded by saying "Depends, do you believe in the myth of t14 or the truth of t15." He was totally erect during our interlude.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385458) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 10:41 PM Author: Razzle Sick Locus
I really don't understand why he obsesses over the rankings of law schools so publicly when he works in academia, it must make him radioactive to anyone who wants to hire him, because with the exception of HYS, he's bashed all the T14 schools at one time or another.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5385777)
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Date: March 21st, 2006 11:33 AM Author: azure chest-beating water buffalo
The anit-Leiter blog is asking if Leiter knows German. Anyone out there know? The answer has to be yes, because how can you get a doctorate on Nietzsche unless you read, write and speak German fluently?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#5389244) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 4:00 PM Author: Abusive embarrassed to the bone tanning salon ape
Search results for: brian leiter
No match found for brian leiter.
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-08-27 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=383101&forum_id=2#6515896) |
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