The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
Leiter's anti-top-14 rant . . .
Poast new message in this thread
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:46 PM
"Here's the bizarre part: the only rationale for this grouping is that all these schools have been ranked in "the top 14" by U.S. News and World Report since roughly the early-to-mid-1990s!"
I think that the more likely rationale is that these are the schools with truly national placement. Or could it be that no rational grouping of top schools would include a school that would hire an asshole as big as Leiter? |
 |
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:47 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:47 PM
Um, no, actually the reason why they're the T14 is because they've always been the "Top 14," whatever that's supposed to mean. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:50 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:51 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:54 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:57 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:11 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:14 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:18 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:48 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:48 PM
Yeah, that's the only reason. Whatever you say Brian... |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:50 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM
"Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier.""
Yeah, lives have been ruined because the T14 concept has caused people to turn down Texas for GULC. Whatever. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:54 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:17 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM
"It is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation"
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:03 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:04 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:05 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:03 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM
Why isn't 15 from the "real world" just as arbitrary than the 14 from the "unreal world"?
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:55 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:57 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:36 AM
Is that where it first started being commonly used? |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:52 AM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:17 PM
I guess it wouldn't surprise me if people at Texas use the "top fifteen" phraseology, as it would be self-serving to link themselves with top schools. Perhaps Leiter has just taken an anecdote that applies to his own life and assumed it must also be true elsewhere. If that's the case, it's truly amazing that this guy has a job. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:46 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:49 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:54 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:38 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:01 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:16 AM
My point, which was quite clear, was that there is no conventional wisdom in favor of "top fifteen." |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 11:20 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:01 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:28 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:55 AM
I think people have different definitions of what is a "Top 10" school, but most will probably fall within that category in at least some people's minds. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:58 PM
I applied to a wide variety of schools based on my own research available from the ABA and additional reported statistics from the schools themselves along with indpendant third parties.
I don't care about rankings. I cared only about my future as a lawyer. I looked for schools which would place me in spots that would make for a lucrative career and perhaps interesting career.
I also valued the actual quality of teaching faculty and student quality - again completely ignoring rankings.
Imagine my surprise as my acceptances started to roll in and other law applicant geeks would say 'wow thats a T14 school'. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:00 PM
How were you able to determine this? |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:02 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:12 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:52 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:53 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 9:59 PM
He opens with this line pronouncing the existence and validity of a Top 15: "In the real world of lawyers, judges, and law professors, it is conventional wisdom that there are 15 top law schools, with a few others (UCLA, USC, perhaps Vanderbilt) on the cusp, and then a drop-off in quality and reputation (though not necessarily in national placement)."
And then closes with this gem: "Rankings--even carelessly designed and gameable rankings like U.S. News--can provide genuine information; but they provide nothing but naked misinformation (misinformation that may damage careers and lives) when they turn into literally meaningless categories like "top 14" and "third tier."
So, Top 14 = literally meaningless categorie that may damage careers and lives. But Top 15 = truth? Okay.
What a pathetically self-conscious UT troll. I can't believe Chicago invited this guy to visit. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:01 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:37 PM
I can't say more, since we're always TWO SUBPOENAS AWAY from disaster here on XOXO. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:02 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:19 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:42 AM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:09 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:11 PM
http://www.leiterrankings.com/students/2005student_quality.shtml |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:27 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:03 AM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:19 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:28 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:44 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:12 PM
He, on the other hand, is a big fricking prick. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:23 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:31 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:33 PM
According to Professor Geoffrey Hazard, Kentucky's Assistant County Attorney Ballard may have violated ethical rules for lawyers prohibiting deception when he disguised his involvement in a letter that lead to the ousting of Judge Stewart. The Courier Journal (2/26/06). Article.
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:15 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:21 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:22 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:25 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:30 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:25 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:26 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:29 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:31 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:37 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:39 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:32 PM
I guess, but he should have accounted in some way for the concentration of elite firms in some cities. You can't assess national placement power by including 5 Texas firms, 3 Seattle firms, 3 Atlanta firms, and only 3 from New York, which is by far the largest legal market (not to mention only 3 from Chi and 3 from DC).
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:48 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:59 PM
What a douche. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:36 PM
So basically his NY dataset just includes Wachtell, and Cravath/SullCrom partners. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:37 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:38 PM
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:46 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:06 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:16 AM
Sullivan's dataset has only 19 Columbia and 21 NYU grads working at Cravath: http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/data.htm
Now go to http://www.cravath.com and use their attorney search to find out how many Columbia and NYU grads really work there. As of today, the search turns up 82 Columbia grads and 56 NYU grads.
Hmm, 19 vs. 82, and 21 vs. 56... and that's just the difference for Cravath! Throw in the lost SullCrom associates and the gap becomes even bigger.
Now, do you *really* think that didn't have an impact on Leiter (and Sullivan's) rankings? There's absolutely no way Columbia would only be #7 and NYU would only be #11 if Cravath and SullCrom had their entire firms counted, as Leiter did with every other firm in his study. |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:19 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:28 AM
You're right, Columbia and NYU have a more regional focus -- which is precisely *why* completely elimining Cravath and SullCrom's associates from the dataset makes Columbia and NYU appear very low ranked! In other words, Texas and other schools got the benefit of having all lawyers at their "regional" firms counted, while Columbia/NYU/Cornell/Penn and other schools that send most of their grads to NYC were at a very severe handicap, since most of the lawyers in two of their three "regional" firms were not counted at all.
Even if this exact same shitty methodology was used, but with the missing lawyers included, Columbia and NYU would be ranked much higher. If Columbia placement was measured as 1262 / 578 instead of 1162 / 578 (assuming 100 CLS alums at Cravath and SullCrom weren't counted), it would've made a pretty big difference (probably putting CLS at #4 or #5, which is where you'd expect it to be). |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 10:28 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:45 AM
He's the king of douches, and a total windbag. Rather than carrying on intellectual discourse he operates via ad hominem attacks and threats of lawsuits. This is disgraceful conduct, *especially* for a law school prof. Plus, he's full of crap on numerous levels. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:01 PM
This expert says that "Arguably competitive with the bottom end of the top 14 are such schools as Duke University, the University of California at Los Angeles and the University of Southern California."
So, according to this most learned and wise expert, there is in fact a "top 14."
In fact, this most wise and brilliant expert says that "For purposes of students thinking about teaching careers, the most important factor is the scholarly distinction of the faculty. There are some 180 accredited law schools in the U.S., but the top 14 law schools in terms of faculty quality are (in alphabetical order) the following:"
Who is this wise and brilliant expert who so devastatingly proves that Leiter is dead wrong when he denies the existence of the "top 14"?
Check it out:
http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2004/lawsch.htm
s3lf-pwn3d!
|
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:03 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:04 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:05 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:07 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:18 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:22 PM
His schtik is so obvious. Top 14 is meaningless but top 15 is universally accepted. Who's missing from the top 14 as the rest of the world knows it? Texas. |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:24 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:25 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:26 PM University of California, Berkeley Cornell University University of Chicago Georgetown University University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Harvard University University of Pennsylvania New York University University of Texas, Austin Northwestern University University of Virginia Stanford University Yale University
No Duke or UCLA |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:50 PM |
|
Date: March 19th, 2006 11:52 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:02 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:53 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:43 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:47 AM
To top it, you go to his own site and see that he invokes the concept of a "top 14" repeatedly when it favors UT.
This guy, by the way, is supposed to be a philosopher. |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM
Except they haven't. The Top 14 has been in the same slots for something like 15 years, while this "Sweet 16" has only been intact for 5 or 6 years (if even that). Also, every school in the Top 14 has been in the Top 10 at one point, while none of the other schools have (in fact that's how the term originated -- the Top 14 is not the Top 14 because it's always been the Top 14 in US News, but because every school in the Top 14 is arguably a Top 10 school, while that's not the case for Texas, UCLA, etc.). |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:08 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:53 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:56 AM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 1:40 PM
It's actually been in tact for 8 years (1999-2007).
The rest of your post is 100% true though.
|
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 12:55 AM
I think there is a real difference in placement between 14 and 15. There's certainly a significant difference between 14 and 20. |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:07 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:10 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:17 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:18 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:56 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 2:03 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:09 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:20 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 2:16 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 9:55 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 10:01 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 10:11 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 12:13 AM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 3:56 PM
"are you going to refuse to write a cease and desist letter that threatens subpoenas when the underlying action that's threatened is dubious?"
this is what i don't understand. Leiter was not representing anyone except himself; there was no ethical obligation -- nor even profit motive -- to write the C&D's. so when he makes a particularly questionable threat, he deserves all the blame; there is no client whose interests he is bound to represent.
maybe i'm just not understanding your criticism. |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:19 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM
CHEFHYPOCRITPWNED!!!! |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM
I guess Justice Thomas is only a part of the "lunatic fringe" when he's not writing about law school rankings.
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1139002920.shtml |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:48 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:49 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:55 AM
Then again, Leiter isn't exactly a bastion of consistency:
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1142728893.shtml |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:46 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:47 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:49 AM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 12:15 AM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:52 AM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 3:58 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 1:49 PM
Leiter outs someone in the comments to a blog entry:
"Try 'former' friend. What happened to you, Steve? Does your ex, Scott--who was always the nice one--know that you've sunk to this level?
I always admired your philosophical acumen, and your contrarian views in aesthetics, and think it a travesty of our profession that you did not secure permanent employment in it. Posted by: BL at July 10, 2005 01:10 PM " |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 2:00 PM
EDIT: I re-read it and now I genuinely HATE Brian Leiter. Previously I had a hearty, good-natured contempt for the man. Now I want to see this guy pwn3d when he comes to Chicago in the worst way. |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:32 PM
gto, you need to add this to 'why leiter hates us and why we hate him.' |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:33 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:20 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:29 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 12:52 AM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:57 AM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 2:54 PM has anybody here taken a class with him who can comment on his in-class behavior? Just his employent alone at UT removes any chance of it ever making it into the top 14
|
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 9:51 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:44 PM
http://brianleiter.powerblogs.com/posts/1142886513.shtml |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:22 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 3:57 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:09 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:26 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 4:31 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 9:59 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 10:41 PM
|
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 10:44 PM |
|
Date: March 20th, 2006 11:24 PM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:59 AM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 1:55 AM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 11:30 AM |
|
Date: March 21st, 2006 11:33 AM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 12:00 PM
GTO, what is leiter's IP address? I'd bet dollars to donuts that BL himself is a serious contributor to his own biography, which is a pretty big faux pas in wikipedia |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 1:49 PM |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 4:00 PM
No match found for brian leiter.
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-08-27 19:10 # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database. |
|
Date: August 28th, 2006 4:02 PM |