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There has to be more going on with evolution than random mutations
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:32 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539262) |
Date: March 5th, 2018 1:33 PM Author: Domesticated swashbuckling abode pistol why would you endorse 2 while rejecting supernatural explanations outright? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539268) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:41 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539340) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:37 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541186) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:35 PM Author: Judgmental marvelous twinkling uncleanness If 1 was true, why wouldn't we all have 12" cocks by now? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539279) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:42 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539346) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:35 PM Author: Slippery Sneaky Criminal http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160629-giraffes-did-not-evolve-long-necks-to-reach-tall-trees (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539283) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:43 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539353) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:51 PM Author: mewling useless pervert I don't understand your argument. Animals mutate. Sometimes that means a longer neck. Sometimes that helps and gets passed down faster than it's cousins over x generations and that mutation takes over enough of the gene pool to dominate it.
Why would natural selection etc not do this, why do you see a need to invoke some Intelligent Designer pulling the strings? |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:05 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539513) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:19 PM Author: fighting bearded theatre fat ankles You do realize that complex adaptations were not ONE SINGLE mutation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539624) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:20 PM Author: exciting corner tank i think that's what he's getting at in the last few sentences. it takes a ridiculous amount of different mutations to get something as complex as venom (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539633) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:22 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539655) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:21 PM Author: Talented parlour yes that is even more fucked up part. any new mutation has to not disrupt a cascade of other genetic relationships (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539638) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 3:27 PM Author: mewling useless pervert I don't want to get too deep into some singular thing like venom, but this sounds exactly like a litany of bullshit intelligent design arguments from complexity, ie. The eye is too complex to evolve, allegedly so are plenty of other things. Except pretty much every single one of these I've seen, there's a bunch of actual biologists pointing out just how well we understand the evolution of things like eyes via the fossil record etc.
It's an argument from lack of data (real or perceived lack,) and lack of creativity in thinking of how things can evolve.
How much do you know about evolution of venom, how much do you know about how much knowledge we have available on the subject?
Wild speculation ahead, but perhaps venom evolve in stages like eyes and tons of other complex organs did, over a long as time and with many different species using those stages along the way, without some end game in the mind of a slow-playing intelligent designer for it to end up as venomous snakes ten million generations down the road.
Re venom: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/09/on-the-origin-of-venom/ |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:39 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay Lol at these faggot biologists hand waving away ID Ideas.
ID is a fuckton closer to the truth than anything mainstream biologists posit. |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:43 AM Author: Ocher mildly autistic base just do randomly mutate toxic saliva and then mutate an independent mechanism of storage and delivery bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35545036) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:51 AM Author: henna deer antler you didn't even read to the end of your own article. the article has been amended and the title is no longer true"
"In other words, there is no obvious sexual dimorphism in neck length. As a result, the authors concluded that the "competing browsers" hypothesis "is the more likely explanation for tallness in giraffes".
In the last 10 years evidence has emerged that weakens the necks-for-sex hypothesis
Meanwhile, other researchers have found direct evidence for the competing browsers hypothesis. By erecting fences around Acacia trees in South Africa, Elissa Cameron and Johan du Toit were able to reveal the impact that smaller competitors like steenbok, impala and kudu have on food availability. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:37 PM Author: Talented parlour I have chosen to believe that we simply cannot grasp the scale of generations that are in play here or how a seemingly tiny variation could give a survival advantage over time and be compounded by millions of generations. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539296) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:54 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539435) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:58 PM Author: Talented parlour *finally overcome by the enormity of time* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539470) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 6:03 PM Author: galvanic grizzly meetinghouse associate Yeah man just multiply by ten!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541304) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 6:06 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541317) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 6:29 PM Author: galvanic grizzly meetinghouse associate The idea of even 100,000 years is probably outside our rational comprehension. The thought that we can realistically imagine a million years, much less one billion, is fanciful nonsense (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541447) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 7:13 PM Author: Peach Goal In Life Gas Station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541706) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:39 PM Author: alcoholic university marketing idea (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539311) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:41 PM Author: mahogany selfie round eye i agree totally, have said this for years. it makes no sense as presented ('random adaptive mutations' WOW, SO RANDOM). it doesn't make sense that random mutations created something so uniform as the archetype of say, a human being. it makes sense, PERHAPS, that random mutations created the eyeball. but why stop there? why didn't some people develop a THIRD eye somewhere on their bodies? and why would 3-eyed and 2-eyed people not evolve side by side? 3 eyes vs 2 eyes is not SUCH an advantage that the 3-eyed people would have slaughtered all the 2-eyed people or something. the whole theory is a little too 'just so' for me to accept. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:08 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539550) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:40 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay What’s ur beef (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541204) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:08 PM Author: racy demanding principal's office Everything has a cost. Query whether third eye would be worth such a cost in early two eyed animalcules that established twoeyed substructure. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539551) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:17 PM Author: exciting corner tank there are actually animals with 3 eyes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye it serves a very logical purpose as a defense function - animals with a parietal eye are cold-blooded and have to spend time bathing in the sun, often with no cover. the parietal eye can alert them to predators approaching from above and behind. The Tuatara is a nocturnal lizard (most lizards are diurnal) that occasionally spends time sunbathing. It makes sense that its parietal eye is more developed than other lizards. Geckos are almost all nocturnal and do not have a parietal eye. Primates almost all developed under foliage so it makes sense that we don't have this third eye. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:23 PM Author: alcoholic university marketing idea (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539662) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:17 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake Tuataras ain't lizards (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541050) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:43 PM Author: Painfully Honest Chapel The origin of consciousness and its effects on material things will be eternal mysteries (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539349) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:44 PM Author: Talented parlour haha I have echolocation ability now so random haha (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539357) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:44 PM Author: exciting corner tank not flame some blind people can do this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539360) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:46 PM Author: Talented parlour jfc (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539367) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:47 PM Author: exciting corner tank there have been cases where people trapped in ice/extreme cold have gone into a pseudo-hibernation state (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539376) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:48 PM Author: Talented parlour could we extend are lifetimes by hibernating in the winter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539382) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:51 PM Author: exciting corner tank it's possible, considering how heart rate seems to have an inverse relationship with lifespan in mammals probably not very effective though - you're sleeping way more so you don't really "gain" that extra time. plus if you believe the limited heart function theory, your heart still beats during hibernation so you might have a shorter waking lifespan |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:25 PM Author: Talented parlour lol I am certainly not interested in "waking lifespan" extension (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539670) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:21 AM Author: Ocher mildly autistic base (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35544980) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 7:17 PM Author: Peach Goal In Life Gas Station link pls (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541737) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:46 PM Author: Mind-boggling very tactful school wagecucks yeah i need someone to eli5 how a chameleon or octopus comes to have those color changing or shape shifting abilities (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539369) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:17 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539613) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 3:26 PM Author: racy demanding principal's office for starters, understand how the color changing mechanism actually works. its like lattices over lattices which expand or contract depending on the color combination the octopus is seeking. Also the consciousness is not contained primarily within the brain of the octopus but is sort of spread out, with tentacles each independently motivated to act. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:48 PM Author: mewling useless pervert "lengthy, infrequent process of random mutations can account for them all."
Infrequent? There's your error, chief. Mutations happen with every reproduction. Over a population of any non-negligible size and any significant number of generations, that's a shit load of mutations. Hard to call it infrequent.
Without getting to any supernatural stuff, I have trouble understanding how life would do anything but evolve on its own. I don't pretend to understand this all well enough to say it must require some supernatural, or a vague ability of plants to "see" what's best for their next generation beyond regular natural selection processes which seem to do that perfectly well. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:51 PM Author: mahogany selfie round eye cr i saw a guy just last week with incipient proto-'gills' on his neck i bet he gets laid all the time because of that potential ADAPTIVE advantage 300 generations hence |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:13 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake cr. The appropriate unit of time for evolution is generations, not years. The trial and error of evolution can occur far faster in e.g. single celled organisms with tens or hundreds or more generations in a single day. The vehicle of experimentation is more limited once you get to large bodied, long lived creatures like us but most of the evolutionary innovations occurred long, long before the cenozoic (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539593) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:22 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539652) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:27 PM Author: exciting corner tank it's possible that several occurred simultaneously in an extremely, extremely rudimentary form and it was refined over time through natural selection. the chances are astronomically low though (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539683) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:34 PM Author: Talented parlour that is a good example of the kind of thing I think evolution has hard time explaining.
IIRC people like Dan Dennett call something like this as possibly explained by "exaption"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaptation |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:37 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake It doesn't have a hard time explaining it; non-biologists just have a hard time with learning that any process besides adaptation and selection could account for genetic variation and species richness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541187) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:41 PM Author: Talented parlour cr I just want to believe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541207) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 3:34 PM Author: mewling useless pervert "but for the most part those mutations are so simple that they wouldnt even be noticed by the environment."
True, most mutations don't come to dominate the gene pool and quickly die out.
Re venom, see my other response above. How confident are you in your exhaustive knowledge of the origins of venoms? Do you know whether there are any known intermittent stages leading to venom?
It isn't totally implausible that there is some supernatural guidance, but it would need to be supernatural and my default is to be extremely skeptical of concluding that supernatural interference is necessary. The existence of venom doesn't move my needle. It doesn't seem much more complex than flight, which evolved independently multiple times, or eyes, which also did, etc.
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/09/on-the-origin-of-venom/ |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:34 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake Selection is not the only mechanism by which mutations/alleles become fixed in populations; in fact its role is rather minor. Mutations with sub-deleterious effects regularly accumulate in the genome via GENETIC DRIFT, and in different environments these can serve as a bank of experimentation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nearly_neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution NOTE: You are biasing your views based on extremely rare, novel phenotypes. Most evolution is BORING and SLOW. Any change in the allele frequency of a population is evolution. You're erroneously focused on the individual level and on evolutionary innovations. |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:54 PM Author: White Coffee Pot Gaping (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539437) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 1:54 PM Author: Lemon supple ratface people who unironically believe in "evolution" leading to stuff like human consciousness are just lol. dumber than creationists or flat earthers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539439) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:14 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake Jfc xo 2018 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539599) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:43 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay You’re banned for 72 hours (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541223) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:45 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake gtfo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541228) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:45 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay Rofl I’ll make you disavow Darwin like I made u disavow fraudlies climate change. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541232) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:46 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake That never happened! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541236) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 7:20 PM Author: Peach Goal In Life Gas Station (ronald mcdonald) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541752) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:48 AM Author: Ocher mildly autistic base science is a liar sometimes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35545052) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:52 AM Author: Peach Goal In Life Gas Station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35545066) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:02 PM Author: White Coffee Pot Gaping this is a strong argument for the simulation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539499) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:25 PM Author: Lemon supple ratface are there still any genuinely smart people out there who don't believe in the simulation hypothesis? haven't met one in forever (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539673) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:44 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay And the simulation is just a millenial, Gay way of saying god. Lol at heathens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541225) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:07 PM Author: idiotic vengeful hell sims are just fucking around man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539544) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:29 PM Author: exciting corner tank (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539706) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:20 PM Author: fuchsia thriller site reading party The blind arrogance of people who believe we know and can explain the nature of the universe astounds me. There are planes of consciousness, dimensions, forms of matter, etc. we can't even begin to comprehend. Maybe you don't want to call this God, but trying to describe it using oafish human brains is ljl. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539632) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:22 PM Author: Cobalt Arousing Double Fault (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539651) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:27 PM Author: Cerebral gay wizard Cr. OP is becoming religious, he just doesn't realize it yet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539682) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:29 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539701) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:30 PM Author: exciting corner tank simulation programmers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539709) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:31 PM Author: Talented parlour yes there is a non random force that led to the birth of our savior Jesus Christ by the Virgin Mary hth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539716) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:42 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake Non-random in what way/at what level? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541217) |
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Date: March 10th, 2018 11:36 AM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35575733) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:30 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake state your IQ and where you were before xo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541138) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 6:00 PM Author: spruce kitchen pocket flask we can infer the IQ, the second part is the tcq (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541292) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:17 AM Author: fuchsia thriller site reading party Brother I'm not arguing against the theory of evolution - that would be retarded - but I am arguing against the idea that humans can possibly know all there is to know about existence through observation and the scientific method. If u disagree u need to more psychedelics. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35544963) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 2:40 PM Author: Vigorous purple faggotry This is 2001 a space odyssey (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35539802) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 3:27 PM Author: racy demanding principal's office The main thing: vast incomprehensibly huge oceans of time and energy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35540127) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:40 PM Author: tan spot that predator makes me so angry. i wish i could just shoot shit out of my eyes at him. evolve horned toads
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:45 PM Author: ultramarine voyeur lay Hell yeah (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541229) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:46 PM Author: Slate contagious corn cake The greatest misunderstanding in the public's concept of biological evolution is, I think, viewing evolution as a path. Evolution is a FILTER. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541235) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:51 PM Author: tan spot dear god, please let me be the only animal who can shoot shit out of my eyes filter evolution horned toads remain thanks, god |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 5:51 PM Author: racy demanding principal's office Evolution is not RANDOM no one says its random. But that doesn't mean its guided or intelligently designed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35541254) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 9:40 PM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35542736) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:32 AM Author: racy demanding principal's office Not really! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35544998) |
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Date: March 10th, 2018 11:35 AM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35575726) |
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Date: March 5th, 2018 9:42 PM Author: appetizing son of senegal hehe random (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35542746) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 5:51 AM Author: Ruby Pisswyrm open ur eyes, longpigs: http://www.macroevolution.net
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:24 AM Author: Ocher mildly autistic base 0% chance "random mutations" led from self-replicating inorganic atoms to the biodiversity witnessed among life on earth. It is completely ridiculous to believe it did (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35544982) |
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Date: March 10th, 2018 11:34 AM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35575722) |
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Date: March 6th, 2018 8:45 AM Author: Peach Goal In Life Gas Station Threads like this are why weed should be illegal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35545043) |
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Date: March 10th, 2018 11:33 AM Author: Silver Chest-beating Telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3910479&forum_id=2#35575716) |