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So I loathe religion but I see why its useful.
Poast new message in this thread
Date: May 19th, 2018 10:50 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Like I get why we “need” it as far as where we are as the human race right now. It does serve a useful purpose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087625) |
Date: May 19th, 2018 10:52 PM Author: deep mewling goyim Not as useful as sucking black dick in the handicap stall of a gaybar though, amirite, Schumel? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087637) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:54 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Wow that is funny. Like not only funny but funny in a smart way. Wow. Bow down. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087652) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:56 PM Author: deep mewling goyim Sorry dude I'm just too low IQ to reach the sort of groundbreaking insights that you make threads about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087659) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:18 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed I never said you were low Iq, just generally a huge loser (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087792) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:41 AM Author: Dashing library you are a huge loser actually (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088366) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:46 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Eat my ass bitch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088389) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:49 AM Author: Dashing library at least tip your fedora (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088402) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:56 PM Author: Filthy senate pistol wow so smart and worldly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087662) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:57 PM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping why do you "loathe" religion? it's 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087663) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:57 PM Author: Wonderful rehab boltzmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087665) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 10:58 PM Author: deep mewling goyim he's a homosexual heeb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087669) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:05 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Because I think a lot of horrible things have been justified in the name of religion and I think it popularizes and ingrains all manner of falsehoods and irrational thinking in the population at large but I also get the “utility” of it from a practical standpoint of having something that ascribes General Moral values and quenches the human need for “spiritual” fulfillment or higher meaning. |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:19 PM Author: adventurous lake sandwich hospital tbf, political ideologies are way more successful and efficient at inflicting the same horrors. all institutions are human. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087802) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:34 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Yeah but that doesn’t have the added fallacy of requiring irrational and magical thinking except in the case of theocracy and you can see how well those work out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087871) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:37 PM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping do you think most modern christians are wandering around thinking about ways to disprove that pesky evolution? what magical thinking or irrationality do you think is inherent in it? many, many modern catholics are neothomists, which is to say christian aristotelians (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087886) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:42 PM Author: adventurous lake sandwich hospital cr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087917) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:43 PM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Well, depending on the Christian sect you’re talking to, they might be. And not even “disprove” by the way, just deny, without providing evidence to the contrary.
But if we’re talking “modern Christians” - let’s excuse the “checkered” past for a moment - most believe that Jesus died for their sins, or to redeem them of their sins. And that he was the son of God. Literally believe this. Do you think it’s ethical for someone else to die to absolve you of your sins? Vicarious redemption by human sacrifice, the core belief of Christianity, seems utterly immoral to me, let alone irrational.
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:48 PM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping i'm a weird platonist and this is not the catholic orthadoxy, but it's miraculous to begin with that god, the one, a purely self-sufficient being, immanented physical reality at all. jesus' sacrifice is a symbolic reflection, in my understanding, of that initial descent from one to many. but if you want to stay on the surface of the jesus story, you're treating it like it's a normal human. the real story is that god chose to in a sense become human and share in our suffering. an integral part of that is dying like we will someday. it seems like you're batting at weird evangelical strawmen from the 2000's--this isn't just some cooky human sacrifice that's supposed to somehow represent a broader practice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087957) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:00 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Ok so your position is not the official position of the Catholic Church. So even if Jesus sacrificed himself, were still dealing with vicarious redemption of humanity through the death of god-as-human. How does god embodying a human form and then not just dying, but being murdered, redeem you of your sins? Where’s your responsibility? It’s a monstrous idea honestly.
And you still believe it to be literally true, even if in a different sense than the church or platonic sense.
The point is if I liked you I could pay your debts. I could maybe bail you out of jail. But I could never take your sins away. No one could do that. In ancient times they used to cast their sins upon goats and drive them out in the desert to die (the origin of the term scape goat). Something needed to be sacrificed. What a horrific idea. It abolishes the notion of personal responsibility on which any real morality MUST depend. You’re not escaping this with dragging Plato into an immoral and deranged story. |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:06 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping have you considered the problem of moral luck? let's say that it's very easy for certain people to refrain from anger, because by their nature they're weak, or others from greed, because they don't want much and simple things make them just as happy. how is it fair that other people cannot be easily gentle or free from greed? i think the condition of humanity is that, because we are immersed in materiality, it is hard for us to be good by our nature. it would be unsurprising to me if god, while still holding us morally accountable for the worst of what we do, takes pity on us to some extent and extends mercy to what are characteristically human faults. the important thing is that he gives us the ability to improve ourselves, and the point of the church (besides the liturgy, which actually is important to human flourishing, as your OP sort of hints at) is to force us into real introspection and to spur us to the real, serious moral change. i think this is ultimately a good. it's only calvinists who think christ's sacrifice and faith are sufficient to change the eschatological status of a person. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088123) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:19 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed So you’ve made the concession in a sense that it’s a story that is supposed to drive moral introspection and throughout this discussion you’ve veered more and more away from the “literal” - but even the story, to me, has serious moral hazards involved any way you slice it. However I do see the “utility” in what religion deals with and why it’s there and in a sense useful for the species. That’s not to say the downsides aren’t as bad. They’re just as bad or worse but for most people, they couldn’t grasp why anyway. But any real or valuable morality must be based on personal responsibility. And now you’re talking about “god” who I am assuming you have literal belief in taking “pity” on us. So this “god” we’ve now ascribed human emotion to, is trying to give us another “out” for our moral failings. Why does the notion of knowing the difference between right and wrong have to stem from an outside source like a celestial dictator than innately? Maybe we as humans innately know what is right and wrong. You don’t have an innate sense of right and wrong or fairness? Even children do. Why must we defer to a celestial dictator whom we must love compulsorily and also fear (what a strange idea) to dictate our morality or forgive us for sin? We have to have more respect for ourselves and others than to say I only do good or know good because “god” commands it so.
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:27 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping i generally think it's better to look for deeper, metaphorical meanings to these sorts of stories, i think that's where you actually get the greatest moral understanding from them, but i'm still willing to defend the surface meaning in this case. you're positing something like natural law, and you're even positing a very strong case for natural law, but you want to deny that this natural law comes from god (whom you think to be a "celestial dictator in that case")? where are you deriving it from otherwise? how would humans universally know it? pity is metaphorical, i'm not committed to the old testament idea that we need to "fear" god, but we should respect the order of the world, and this includes the idea of providential punishment for humans that go too far. i would rigorously distinguish between forgivable sin and unforgivable sin, as i think many christians would. we should always hold ourselves accountable, even in the case of forgivable sin, but imagining that we are sinless is hubris, like imagining that we are more than human, that we are god. there's a fine line to tread there, and i think you're ignoring it by assuming the perfectibility of human moral life (although you assume natural law is not instilled by god? confusing) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088291) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:40 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed My whole point is that we are not sinless. It’s that we can’t eacape or get around our sins by casting them onto something else whether that’s a goat (which people literally did) or Jesus or anyone else. Why do you say there is a “natural law” that must come from “god”? That’s your best answer as to why humans have an innate sense of right and wrong or fair and unfair? Not simply because we have a more highly evolved consciousness? Why do we need a celestial almighty being to dictate what is correct and not? Where’s your evidence that it DOES come from this being?
Additionally, most scientists and researchers, through the study of history, DNA, fossilized evidence etc, posit modern Homo sapiens as a species have been around about 250,000 years, give or take. You say god sent us Jesus or “became” Jesus to experience human suffering. Well, for about the first 200,000 years of human life - we had no technology. We had no agriculture. Many died in child birth or their mothers did. We had no theories or treatment for disease. People died at 20 or 25. And heaven, with its arms crossed, watched this horrific human suffering for hundreds of thousands of years until about 2,000 years ago decided to send down Jesus to experience it for itself, and then in doing so “redeem” us. It’s an absurd idea. Additionally as far as you have backed off of literalism in the course of this discussion, I have to ask, is that not embarrassing for you? You’ve basically wandered all the way from traditional Christian doctrine into “oh wait it’s lkke metaphorical, and I’m a neonplatonist and like morality must have a divine source...” it must? Why? |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:50 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping re: second paragraph, yeah suffering is hard to understand, but you seem to think technology is what made it better. i'd be more careful. it's always a give and a take and there is no telos of technology. i sincerely don't know why jesus came in a particular point in time, and this is one of the points i'm least confident on, but there are enthusiastic theologians with a variety of reasons. regardless, because souls are judged again anyway, and not just condemned to the pre-jesus fate, i don't really have a problem with it. and to be fair, i didn't start from literalism and move to metaphors, you're mischaracterizing me: i said from the outset i understand christianity metaphorically but if you have to play on the literal level yeah i'll defend that too. re: 1st paragraph, most cultures have a form of scapegoating, and if i remember a lecture in an ethology class correctly many species of animals do! it's pretty natural. if you think that human intuition about morals is worthwhile and not meaningless bullshit, i assume you have an idea like natural law behind it. if you don't, well, then sorry you wasted both our time, friend. how do you think morality is based on "more highly evolved consciousness"? how do you deal with moral relativism? |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:14 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Okay, gonna poast one more response Bc it’s late but also i think you’re not quite grasping the point and it’s becoming non responsive.
First of all, the scapegoating thing - I’ve addressed that. I’ve no comment on animals. My comment was on scapegoating as a practice wherein people at one time truly did believe they could cast their “sins” onto a goat, drive it to the desert and die and be redeemed through that sacrifice. It’s a ludicrous evil idea and humans also do it to other humans. Ive no further comment on this.
Basically what you’re getting at is ho do you have morality without god? Or because even if we have natural law it must come from “god”. Well...
What you’re saying if god exists we have to “do what he says” or act in accordance with “natural law” and if not, it’s a free for all and we just do what we like. You know the 9/11 attacks were faith based? The crusades were faith based? The Salem witch trials? All manner of suicide bombings? Isis is a faith based Islamic supremacy organization.
Take my challenge: name any moral act done by a believer in the name of faith that couldn’t be done by someone without faith. The care and protection of children for example. If you saw a child running into traffic you’d probably stop it. Why? Because that’s your innate instinct. Not because god or religion commanded you to. Many animals who don’t profess belief in any higher being also share this innate sense and go to great lengths to protect their offspring. You don’t need a divine reason for innate feelings and beliefs about being a moral human.
And with that my neckbeardy friends I say goodnight for now. Happy to pick this up later tho.
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:18 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping i could name st. thomas as one who would not have acted as he did without the faith. ok so you believe in vague evopsyche rather than a real rationale for your ethics. your funeral, bro. enjoy subjective morality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088525) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:42 PM Author: adventurous lake sandwich hospital one could fairly argue that the added necessities you call fallacies buttress the hubris of the political ideologies. the political ideologies harbor no trepidation at all at forcefully imposing their views on others precisely because they have it "all right". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087912) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:04 AM Author: Pea-brained Smoky Roast Beef (fag) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088100) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:57 AM Author: Shaky rigpig "Because I think a lot of horrible things have been justified in the name of religion"
Terrible things have also been justified in the name of freedom and "doing the right thing" and bullshit like helping people by killing them.
"I think it popularizes and ingrains all manner of falsehoods and irrational thinking in the population at large"
Fairer, but ignorant people are ignorant because they want to be, not because of religion. |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:58 AM Author: deep mewling goyim You're talking to a homosexual 1-2 standard deviations dumber than you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088439) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:01 AM Author: Dashing library is OP fruit salad? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088453) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:02 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping tbf, most of the posts in my subthread (mine included) are fruit salad; this thread is shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088456) |
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Date: May 19th, 2018 11:50 PM Author: abusive property sound barrier what did religion ever do to you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36087978) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:03 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed It’s not about me, it’s about humanity. You remember that little 9/11 thing right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088081) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:08 AM Author: abusive property sound barrier OWAS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088145) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 12:08 AM Author: Misunderstood honey-headed gaping not all religions are the same, bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088146) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:05 AM Author: concupiscible sticky gay wizard wow never thought of it that way (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088467) |
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Date: May 20th, 2018 1:17 AM Author: heady twinkling heaven half-breed Wow sarcasm is so edgy and cool (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3981709&forum_id=2#36088516) |