German soldiers in WWII were superior but only lost due to numbers?
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Date: June 16th, 2018 7:10 PM Author: lilac ape lettuce
I mean this is undeniable by an conceivable metric.
Even during the late war western front in which the Germans had near zero fuel, complete loss of the skies and were scraping the bottom of the barrel talent-wise, they still did fairly well all things considered. If not for blowing their load in the Battle of the Bulge and the pressures from the eastern front, they could have held off for a while.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257625) |
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Date: June 16th, 2018 10:54 PM Author: Sadistic school cafeteria
I am familiar with this period of Roman history. This topic has sufficiently piqued my interest that I am going to try and track down some statistics on Soviet and Roman losses as a proportion to their active fighting forces and their population as a whole. I would be shocked if these numbers do not definitively establish that Soviet losses far surpassed those of the Romans.
EDIT: And just to be clear, I was not implying that Rome was a weak state. It could and did take its lumps. My claim is that the Soviets demonstrated an ability unparalleled throughout human history to keep the gears of war churning in the face extreme adversity.
I also want to note that I am not a sympathizer of the communists, leftists, and certainly not Dems.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258392) |
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Date: June 16th, 2018 9:43 PM Author: Lake diverse telephone
German troops were much more willing to sacrifice themselves for the nation even when things were hopeless than Allied troops were. They had been raised to believe that was their purpose.
Allied troops were primarily individuals, like all of us are. Which is better in most regards, but not when it comes to soldiering.
E.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_and_Country_debate
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258071) |
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Date: June 16th, 2018 10:10 PM Author: Charcoal national degenerate
This is a good post, but a few comments:
-Overall, you're right that German weaponry was often badly handled on the production end. They had too many different vehicles and many were overengineered, leading to frequent breakdowns and a constant shortage of spare parts, among other things. Germany was already getting outproduced by its enemies and this exacerbated things. That said, early in the war the Germans did make better use of some less obvious bits of equipment. For example, excellent German panzer performance wasn't because of better armor or gun power, or even vastly superior unit organization (France and Russia also had specialized concentrated armor units). Instead, for the early war, much of Germany's consistently better success was based on superior use of radios; better radio communications made it MUCH easier for several German tanks to coordinate units and they regularly steamrolled similarly-sized forces thanks to this advantage. This thread on BoardGameGeek actually has some good content in it, especially from the user JasonC: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2003963/designing-operational-problems-france-1940
-France did in fact anticipate an attack on the Benelux territories; their problem was not that this attack was a surprise but rather that they overreacted to it and sent their best forces plunging into the Low Countries in an attempt to keep the battle off French soil; this caused all of them to be surrounded and captured when the Germans smashed through the Ardennes (where the attack was a genuine surprise).
-In general the German military was at its apex from around 1940-1942; it was steadily declining after that point and there are ample cases of it getting beaten straight up after that.
-As you say, comparing German forces to Allied forces straight-up is kind of a silly exercise. The Allies had vastly more resources and could afford to act differently to bring about victory. For example, even if a Tiger tank could defeat any other enemy tank head-to-head, that didn't really mean shit if the Allies could produce 10 tanks for every Tiger, using 5 of them to keep the Tiger occupied while the other 5 help infantry smash through the German lines. Yeah, the Germans did better "pound for pound" but that doesn't mean much if they're still getting creamed. Arguably they'd have been better off fielding a "worse" army that had slightly more heavy equipment overall.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258200) |
Date: June 16th, 2018 10:22 PM Author: Charcoal national degenerate
This article seems kind of weird to me. Like, is it really in the popular imagination that the Germans were some shitty ineffective force in World War 2? I'm pretty sure that stereotype is most often applied to the Soviets, while the Germans are routinely portrayed as very elite and capable with tons of heavy equipment. Even the author only seems able to cite literal World War 2 propaganda, as if that matters in the slightest.
Also, I'm pretty sure the German reputation as zombies unthinkingly obeying orders isn't directly related to their combat smarts; it probably derives from the idea the Germans were brutes who committed a ton of atrocities, which, during WW2 at least, they certainly did.
Also lol at neocon hack Max Boot being an "influential author." Sadly it may be true.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258256) |
Date: June 17th, 2018 2:38 PM Author: motley slap-happy base weed whacker
I would say early in WW2, pound for pound the Germans had the best army. Morale was probably the highest of any of the armies. The UK and France had no desire to go back into a WW. Italy was ambivalent during WW1, flipped sides, and repeated this during WW2. Russia/the USSR had just suffered a massive officer purge. Americans largely felt like it wasn't their war. Yes, the Germans didn't always have the best weapons, and in addition to the Char tank example, I can point out the KV1 example from the USSR, where there were similar stories, including one incident where two KV1s ambushed a column of German tanks that were on road where going off was impossible due to terrain. They knocked out the front tank and the rear tank and proceeded to take out the rest of the column one tank at a time. There was nothing the Germans could do because none of their tanks could penetrate the KV1's armor.
That said, simply "more soldiers" wasn't enough. They needed more production - weapons, tanks, planes, etc. Also, long term they would have lost anyway due to the atomic bomb, assuming they didn't have enough to outright win early on.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260834) |
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Date: June 17th, 2018 2:46 PM Author: Sadistic school cafeteria
"That said, simply "more soldiers" wasn't enough. They needed more production - weapons, tanks, planes, etc. Also, long term they would have lost anyway due to the atomic bomb, assuming they didn't have enough to outright win early on."
Lol at your conclusion. Yes, ramping up production was important. However, the most critical shortage faced by the Russians was junior and mid-level officers who were competent tacticians. Hell, you even touched upon this issue by noting the officer purges preceding WWII.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260862) |
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Date: June 17th, 2018 11:35 PM Author: motley slap-happy base weed whacker
For the Russians, sure (but that comment wasn't about the Russians). For the Germans, they had great troops all the way up, at least early to mid-war. If they merely had more of them that wouldn't have been enough. But if they had say, double the troops but also double the tanks, planes, guns, etc. then they probably could have captured Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad and the USSR's oil fields, Rommel could have held off the US and the British, and that might have changed the course of the war.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263412)
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Date: June 18th, 2018 1:22 PM Author: cerebral insecure station
German carbiner was garbage compared to the M-1. P-51 outclassed every plane the Germans had except the me262. Sherman M36 tank performed fine against German tanks and could be produced at a fraction of the time & cost. Germany never had a masses produced heavy bomber. Germany still utilized horses for transport and some of the German aircraft performed horribly against modern aircraft (stukas). The German surface fleet made about as much of an impact on the war as did the Confederate fleet during the US Civil war. German Uboats were effective until the Allies developed tactics that worked, and at that point they were wiped out.
German tactics were advanced but no more so than the US towards the end of the war.
Against a prepared foe, the German army did not perform amazingly: Kursk & Bulge.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265832)
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Date: June 18th, 2018 3:07 PM Author: motley slap-happy base weed whacker
I'm just going to note this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
Now, look at the numbers for men, guns, etc.
Germans:
Operation Citadel:
780,900 men[2]
2,928 tanks[2]
9,966 guns and mortars[3]
Soviet counteroffensive phase:
940,900 men[2]
3,253 tanks[2]
9,467 guns and mortars[4]
2,110 aircraft[5]
Soviets:
Operation Citadel:
1,910,361 men[6]
5,128 tanks[6]
25,013 guns and mortars[3]
Soviet counteroffensive phase:
2,500,000 men[6]
7,360 tanks[6]
47,416 guns and mortars[4]
2,792[7][c] to 3,549[8][d] aircraft
The Germans were shockingly outmanned and outgunned both at the beginning and the end. Compare to earlier battles where the Germans often had advantages or were similar in men and equipment. Such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
Just on those numbers alone, it should be clear that the Germans were going to have a very hard time pulling out a victory.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266596) |
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