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Anyone ever notice that Hillary COMPLETELY lied about Libya, and got a free pass

I'm reading this article from two years about saying how Rus...
big hominid
  07/16/18
She’s still traumatized by that sniper attack in Sarajevo
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
This is really a great article. Remember this is two years ...
big hominid
  07/16/18
but none of this matter because it was Her turn and Trump sa...
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
women can get away w murder
floppy ruddy twinkling uncleanness gaming laptop
  07/16/18
...
Ebony Faggotry
  07/16/18
Yes, the whole Libya operation was a disgrace. Every time we...
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
I had no idea that Russia could have vetoed Libya, and only ...
big hominid
  07/16/18
Odd case
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
...
Adulterous ivory old irish cottage
  07/17/18
...
provocative state
  07/16/18
...
Ebony Faggotry
  07/16/18
Look at the unbelievable spin they put on it at the time: ...
big hominid
  07/16/18
Never heard this either.
razzle party of the first part
  07/16/18
And HRC has personal responsibility for it. She is (reported...
crystalline swashbuckling home
  07/17/18
Hmmmmmmm
Cerebral garrison personal credit line
  07/16/18
Did you know this? Not sure if this was something common th...
big hominid
  07/16/18
It was not just ignored, the lies being set forth by the adm...
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
I knew that "Russia didn't like Hillary" because o...
Cerebral garrison personal credit line
  07/17/18
I did some more Googling, and here is the US media's spin on...
big hominid
  07/16/18
People really should look at this quote for a striking examp...
big hominid
  07/16/18
...
Ebony Faggotry
  07/16/18
Interesting. Never once heard that Hillary promised no regi...
Orchid Abode
  07/16/18
I know, had no clue. Take a look at the egregious spin that...
big hominid
  07/16/18
I remember that. The whole premise and promise was that a fe...
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
I mean, I remember the public justification of the no fly zo...
Orchid Abode
  07/16/18
Yeah, same. A pretty important fact I might add. And it ...
big hominid
  07/16/18
Same
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
Why should Gadhaffi have stopped trying to kill people tryin...
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
Yeah I remember that well and I’ll admit I bought into it a ...
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
link?
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBY-0n4esNY
Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig
  07/16/18
lol ty
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
...
Ebony Faggotry
  07/16/18
Maybe Trump should start killing people trying to overthrow ...
erotic excitant giraffe
  07/17/18
overdue imo
sable wrinkle doctorate
  07/17/18
Kind of sad how Libya has probably directly helped cause the...
Orchid Abode
  07/16/18
It's not probable, its definite. Arms we gave to rebels in L...
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
cr. And Hillary is really the one solely responsible for Lib...
Orchid Abode
  07/16/18
Jfc
Adulterous ivory old irish cottage
  07/17/18
...
Marvelous Kitty Native
  07/17/18
Libya started the whole migrant crisis in Europe.
crystalline swashbuckling home
  07/17/18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore
saffron diverse corner
  07/16/18
cr governments would have to be insane not to grab nukes af...
territorial glassy nowag generalized bond
  07/16/18
Wait a sec.... Hillary lied??!!!??!!??!!??!!?!!!!!!?!!!!!
Motley Tan Space
  07/16/18
Nice snark, but try to be serious. I really had no idea t...
big hominid
  07/16/18
Love ya lawman but the “we came, we saw, he died!” Is one of...
Motley Tan Space
  07/16/18
Were you aware that she promised Russia no regime change and...
big hominid
  07/16/18
I didn’t know that part exactly but I am not surprised in th...
Motley Tan Space
  07/16/18
Well, I have hated Hillary for a long time. My broader po...
big hominid
  07/16/18
I would really appreciate the scholarship of Obeezy and WLMA...
bateful indirect expression
  07/16/18
yep
Twisted violent police squad
  07/17/18
One of the big takeaways that yall r forgetting is when fuck...
Chrome public bath
  07/17/18
...
saffron diverse corner
  07/17/18
Killer boners
180 Dilemma
  07/17/18
ljl at the bort uncritically parotting russian propaganda
wonderful university
  07/17/18
what is propaganda? the snippet from the OP is how things we...
Marvelous Kitty Native
  07/17/18
lol, ok ivan
wonderful university
  07/17/18
...
twinkling heaven nibblets
  07/17/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:18 PM
Author: big hominid

I'm reading this article from two years about saying how Russia genuinely thought that Hillary would start WWIII, and came across this tidbit. I was unaware of this, and certainly never heard it addressed in the (((media))) once. Wonder why that is?

"Let’s not mince words: Moscow perceives the former secretary of state as an existential threat. The Russian foreign-policy experts I consulted did not harbor even grudging respect for Clinton. The most damaging chapter of her tenure was the NATO intervention in Libya, which Russia could have prevented with its veto in the U.N. Security Council. Moscow allowed the mission to go forward only because Clinton had promised that a no-fly zone would not be used as cover for regime change.

Russia’s leaders were understandably furious when, not only was former Libyan President Muammar al-Qaddafi ousted, but a cellphone recording of his last moments showed U.S.-backed rebels sodomizing him with a bayonet. They were even more enraged by Clinton’s videotaped response to the same news: “We came, we saw, he died,” the secretary of state quipped before bursting into laughter, cementing her reputation in Moscow as a duplicitous warmonger.

As a candidate, Clinton has given Moscow déjà vu by once again demanding a humanitarian no-fly zone in the Middle East — this time in Syria. Russian analysts universally believe that this is another pretext for regime change. Putin is determined to prevent Syrian President Bashar al-Assad from meeting the same fate as Qaddafi — which is why he has deployed Russia’s air force, navy, and special operations forces to eliminate the anti-Assad insurgents, many of whom have received U.S. training and equipment."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/07/the-kremlin-really-believes-that-hillary-clinton-will-start-a-war-with-russia-donald-trump-vladimir-putin/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441305)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:20 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

She’s still traumatized by that sniper attack in Sarajevo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441317)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:23 PM
Author: big hominid

This is really a great article. Remember this is two years ago. Here's another tidbit:

"That fear was heightened when Clinton surrogate Harry Reid, the Senate minority leader, recently accused Putin of attempting to rig the U.S. election through cyberattacks. That is a grave allegation — the very kind of thing a President Clinton might repeat to justify war with Russia."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441341)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:30 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

but none of this matter because it was Her turn and Trump said pussy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441400)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:23 PM
Author: floppy ruddy twinkling uncleanness gaming laptop

women can get away w murder

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441339)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:01 PM
Author: Ebony Faggotry



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441660)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:25 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

Yes, the whole Libya operation was a disgrace. Every time we took offensive action against Libyan military targets, we'd come out and say the attacks were "humanitarian" to create the legal fiction of falling within the Security Council resolution. It was a huge lie and betrayal of the authority actually granted, and has caused massive problems in its aftermath.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441361)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:26 PM
Author: big hominid

I had no idea that Russia could have vetoed Libya, and only allowed it to go forward based on Hillary's promises the attacks wouldn't be used for regime change.

We completely screwed them over, yet I've literally never heard this said once.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441374)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:29 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

Odd case

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441387)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 12:04 AM
Author: Adulterous ivory old irish cottage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442080)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:40 PM
Author: provocative state



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441480)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:02 PM
Author: Ebony Faggotry



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441662)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:03 PM
Author: big hominid

Look at the unbelievable spin they put on it at the time:

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&mc=36&forum_id=2#36441461

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441670)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:04 PM
Author: razzle party of the first part

Never heard this either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441673)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:24 AM
Author: crystalline swashbuckling home

And HRC has personal responsibility for it. She is (reportedly, by NYT) the one who convinced Obama to support it, and he was initially against it and would have stopped it in NATO.

Media basically avoided the whole issue like the plague.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443180)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:33 PM
Author: Cerebral garrison personal credit line

Hmmmmmmm

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441427)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:35 PM
Author: big hominid

Did you know this? Not sure if this was something common that I missed, or a fact that was deliberately and systematically ignored in all of our media apparatuses.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441446)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:37 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

It was not just ignored, the lies being set forth by the administration were presented as God's honest truth by all media. There is no difference between FOX, CNN, MSNBC when it comes to foreign policy, they are all unhinged neocons at heart.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441458)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 12:58 AM
Author: Cerebral garrison personal credit line

I knew that "Russia didn't like Hillary" because of comments she made about Russia/Putin while SOS and afterward, but I had no idea about any of the context behind it, or the perception stated in the russian media. makes sense though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442393)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:38 PM
Author: big hominid

I did some more Googling, and here is the US media's spin on the issue:

"In the spring of 2011, the U.S. and its allies began pushing for a military intervention in Libya to prevent the regime of Muammar Ghaddafi from massacring rebel forces and their civilian supporters. But without Russia’s acquiescence, the West could not pass a resolution in the U.N. that would provide a legal basis for the intervention. So Clinton and Obama began pressuring Medvedev to play along, and he ultimately agreed not to veto the resolution in the U.N. Security Council.

Putin was furious. The resolution, he said, resembled “the medieval calls for a Christian crusade,” one that Clinton, as the top U.S. diplomat at the time, helped to orchestrate. Later that same year, when Russia’s flawed parliamentary elections set off a season of street protests, Clinton spoke up in support of the demonstrations. “The Russian people, like people everywhere, deserve the right to have their voices heard and their votes counted,” Clinton said. “And that means they deserve free, fair, transparent elections and leaders who are accountable to them.”

It was a fairly tame statement of support for the Russian opposition movement. But Putin took it as a personal affront against his leadership, as well as a sign that Clinton was intent on manipulating the Russian presidential elections that were then just a few months away."

http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441461)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:01 PM
Author: big hominid

People really should look at this quote for a striking example of how our media distorts the truth and outright lies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441658)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:06 PM
Author: Ebony Faggotry



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441683)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:38 PM
Author: Orchid Abode

Interesting. Never once heard that Hillary promised no regime change to the Russians. Ty for the article

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:39 PM
Author: big hominid

I know, had no clue. Take a look at the egregious spin that Time gave it on my comment above.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441477)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:42 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

I remember that. The whole premise and promise was that a few bombs would get Gaddafi to stop killing rebels, and that’s where it would stop.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441488)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:44 PM
Author: Orchid Abode

I mean, I remember the public justification of the no fly zone, but I didn't know we made personal entreaties to Russia not to veto the resolution on the promise we wouldn't seek regime change.

It makes sense in retrospect, but it's just not a fact I'd seen reported before.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441498)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:46 PM
Author: big hominid

Yeah, same. A pretty important fact I might add.

And it doesn't help that Hillary was laughing after she broke her promise.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441517)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:48 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

Same

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441543)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:44 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

Why should Gadhaffi have stopped trying to kill people trying to overthrow him in the first place?

The entire push in the Security Council started because of some flippant remark Gadhaffi made during one of his marathon speeches about "exterminating rats" in Benghazi. This was presented as if he was seriously going to send soldiers door to door in rebel towns and commit genocide of civilians (rather than just crush the armed resistance). It was a deliberate misrepresentation, no serious observer could possibly believe that was his true meaning, but never seriously questioned by our media.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441505)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:48 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

Yeah I remember that well and I’ll admit I bought into it a little as a coming genocide or something

Do you remember that 180 dance mix of that Gaddafi speech? The Zenga Zenga mix?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441537)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:49 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

link?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441546)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:49 PM
Author: Titillating outnumbered liquid oxygen codepig

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBY-0n4esNY

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441558)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:51 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

lol ty

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441572)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:08 PM
Author: Ebony Faggotry



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441699)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:32 AM
Author: erotic excitant giraffe

Maybe Trump should start killing people trying to overthrow him.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443192)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:43 AM
Author: sable wrinkle doctorate

overdue imo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443226)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:45 PM
Author: Orchid Abode

Kind of sad how Libya has probably directly helped cause the disaster that Syria is, as well as make it impossible that we can come to peace with N Korea

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441513)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:47 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

It's not probable, its definite. Arms we gave to rebels in Libya are all over Syria now.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441529)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:51 PM
Author: Orchid Abode

cr. And Hillary is really the one solely responsible for Libya. The only one in the cabinet who was pushing for military action and somehow convinced Obama to do it. Sad!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441568)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 12:06 AM
Author: Adulterous ivory old irish cottage

Jfc

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442095)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:43 AM
Author: Marvelous Kitty Native



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443224)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:27 AM
Author: crystalline swashbuckling home

Libya started the whole migrant crisis in Europe.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443185)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:48 PM
Author: saffron diverse corner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441540)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:50 PM
Author: territorial glassy nowag generalized bond

cr

governments would have to be insane not to grab nukes after Libya

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441562)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:53 PM
Author: Motley Tan Space

Wait a sec.... Hillary lied??!!!??!!??!!??!!?!!!!!!?!!!!!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441587)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:56 PM
Author: big hominid

Nice snark, but try to be serious.

I really had no idea that the only reason Russia didn't use their veto on Libya was because Hillary promised she wouldn't pursue regime change...only to be videotaped hysterically laughing after she broke her promise and Gadaffi was dead.

Doesn't this seem like a monumentally important fact that should have been reported? No one seems to have any idea. I randomly stumbled on it when looking for something else.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441618)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:58 PM
Author: Motley Tan Space

Love ya lawman but the “we came, we saw, he died!” Is one of Hillary’s more famous transparently sociopathic moments. You look at the world and wonder why it’s the way it is, well, look at the leaders. Hillary Clinton is a psychopath, there’s no question. The inmates are running the asylum.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441637)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 10:59 PM
Author: big hominid

Were you aware that she promised Russia no regime change and this is the only reason they didn't use their veto or not?

I agree with you on most things, but I want your honest answer. I was also aware of her laughing after the fact, but not the crucial Russia part.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441642)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:04 PM
Author: Motley Tan Space

I didn’t know that part exactly but I am not surprised in the least. I did know she handed Russia a big “reset” button as a fake gimmicky photo op, knowing full well she was planning to act disingenusouly. That’s a Clinton. Feed someone a line, feed someone a belief and then do as thou wilt, and laugh about it. You’re assuming people think this woman ever had a shred of integrity. Her entire career has been built on lying and obfuscation, it’s literally all she knows how to do.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441672)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:06 PM
Author: big hominid

Well, I have hated Hillary for a long time.

My broader point here is disbelief that someone like me - who is basically as distrustful of our media as someone could possibly be - was completely hoodwinked by them and had no idea about this undisputed fact.

Like as cynical as I am, I'm genuinely shocked that in today's day and age, with all this alternative media out there, a very important fact like this was successfully COMPLETELY buried by our media. Like I bet if you polled 99% of Americans, none of them would know this part.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441686)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2018 11:08 PM
Author: bateful indirect expression

I would really appreciate the scholarship of Obeezy and WLMAS on this issue.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36441701)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 12:00 AM
Author: Twisted violent police squad

yep

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442064)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 2:42 AM
Author: Chrome public bath

One of the big takeaways that yall r forgetting is when fucking MSN ran all those stories about Qhadaffi's men amping up on Viagra to go door to door and rape bitches as punishment. All the American Shrews were on TV pushing this false flag as another reason we had to use air strikes.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442788)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 2:45 AM
Author: saffron diverse corner



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442793)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 2:49 AM
Author: 180 Dilemma

Killer boners

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36442799)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:37 AM
Author: wonderful university

ljl at the bort uncritically parotting russian propaganda

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443208)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:43 AM
Author: Marvelous Kitty Native

what is propaganda? the snippet from the OP is how things went down, and you dont have to be a mouthbreathing peasant to understand that Hillary, and our FP in general, was running fucking amok at that time

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443221)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:46 AM
Author: wonderful university

lol, ok ivan

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36443236)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 17th, 2018 8:27 PM
Author: twinkling heaven nibblets



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4027871&forum_id=2#36448326)