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MUNGER TOLLES MANAGING PARTNER DIES AT 58 W/ NEPHEW

that she loved to spend time with https://www.mto.com/law...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  04/25/19
>>Ms. Seville-Jones is survived by her father Cliff, t...
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
Read this as "And she is mourned by her colleagues and ...
very tactful irate son of senegal old irish cottage
  04/25/19
she made lots of money at munger tolles tho
chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office
  04/25/19
xo's #tennis crew lost a good one >>She possessed a...
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
Locked down legal engagements on the clay court; copped dat ...
Violent Cruise Ship Gunner
  04/25/19
wtf is this SJW shakedown op? >>Under her leadershi...
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
Gotta be fun ignoring the elephant in the room of a person w...
boyish brass spot haunted graveyard
  04/25/19
...
chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office
  04/25/19
why's that an elephant in the room? not exactly unheard of t...
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
obit says "complications from surgery"
Henna diverse den
  04/25/19
not a c section i'm quite sure.
chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office
  04/25/19
...
Henna diverse den
  04/25/19
...
thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed
  04/25/19
...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  04/25/19
...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  04/25/19
Looks like a lipless reptile w/ shitgenes
glassy racy national
  04/25/19
I think she was interviewed by some mag a couple of years ag...
flickering address incel
  04/25/19
pics? ttt green clay or red clay imported from europe?
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
People with more $ than time often make this kind of wistful...
Passionate Marketing Idea
  04/25/19
...
Henna diverse den
  04/25/19
...
very tactful irate son of senegal old irish cottage
  04/25/19
...
flickering address incel
  04/25/19
I love tennis and spend hours on Xo poasting about it instea...
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
Absolutely devastating
thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed
  04/25/19
Of course you never know when a commercial grade tuna oven w...
dun bateful stage partner
  04/25/19
Great poast. I know a middle-aged ortho surgeon who has to ...
White Affirmative Action
  04/25/19
...
thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed
  04/25/19
Xo does this but with knives
hairless box office
  04/26/19
...
Greedy azn
  04/25/19
...
internet-worthy home lettuce
  04/25/19
lulz. such my dad's O/U shotguns and boat he used to keep at...
Stirring idiotic native
  04/25/19
...
magenta pistol ape
  04/26/19
Yep. I remember ridiculing her on this bort.
Greedy azn
  04/25/19
That's why lawyers should be into mechanical keyboards as a ...
glittery magical toaster
  04/26/19
Amazingly, here's an article about her from 1982. Seems like...
lavender shrine nibblets
  04/25/19
the child is father to the man
Passionate Marketing Idea
  04/25/19
Interesting. She actually was a perfect personality fit for ...
Greedy azn
  04/25/19
...
Violent Cruise Ship Gunner
  04/25/19
What's important in this is that, beyond doubt, she advanced...
White Affirmative Action
  04/25/19
...
internet-worthy home lettuce
  04/25/19
*Other partners quickly dialing (and competing with each oth...
Violent Cruise Ship Gunner
  04/25/19
this is not even parody
Passionate Marketing Idea
  04/25/19
...
Primrose razzmatazz headpube
  04/25/19
...
thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed
  04/25/19
...
chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office
  04/25/19
Is munger still the most prestigious biglaw litigation firm ...
Primrose razzmatazz headpube
  04/25/19
Not surprising that a law firm would issue an obituary that ...
180 church
  04/25/19
Meow!
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/25/19
you're a munger for your miserable life and then there are t...
Ultramarine alcoholic degenerate
  04/25/19
...
histrionic site quadroon
  04/25/19
What's a Munger Tolles?
mind-boggling orchid police squad
  04/25/19
...
Yapping church building sex offender
  04/25/19
Sad
dun bateful stage partner
  04/25/19
"Throughout her tenure, she promoted women attorneys an...
underhanded death wish pit
  04/25/19
...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  04/26/19
she was a high school debate GOD
Pungent community account step-uncle's house
  04/26/19
HUG --> UCLA JD LOL
Pungent community account step-uncle's house
  04/26/19
Maybe she moved to LA for her husband. Oh wait.
spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker
  04/26/19
...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  04/26/19
...
Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur
  05/04/19


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:00 AM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur

that she loved to spend time with

https://www.mto.com/lawyers/Sandra-A-Seville-Jones

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138704)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:08 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

>>Ms. Seville-Jones is survived by her father Cliff, to whom she was devoted, and by her three siblings, Peter, Dawn and Dyan, and her nephew Derek, with whom she loved to spend time. And she is mourned by her colleagues and many dear friends who know they will find no one like her.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138721)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:19 AM
Author: very tactful irate son of senegal old irish cottage

Read this as "And she is mourned by her colleagues and many dear friends who know they will find no one liked her."

Then felt bad. :(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140206)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:01 AM
Author: chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office

she made lots of money at munger tolles tho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138706)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:06 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

xo's #tennis crew lost a good one

>>She possessed an abiding love of competitive professional sports from tennis to basketball,

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138716)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:06 AM
Author: Violent Cruise Ship Gunner

Locked down legal engagements on the clay court; copped dat BBC on the hardwood.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140106)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:07 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

wtf is this SJW shakedown op?

>>Under her leadership, the firm became one of the first to garner Mansfield Certification Plus, recognizing the significant representation of women and attorneys of color in leadership positions at the firm. She

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138717)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:14 AM
Author: boyish brass spot haunted graveyard

Gotta be fun ignoring the elephant in the room of a person with top healthcare at her disposal dying at 58. Amazing to me that the law community still ignores this, time for someone else to make money I guess.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138728)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:24 AM
Author: chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138741)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:27 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

why's that an elephant in the room? not exactly unheard of that wealthy ppl in good shape and in apparent good health suddenly drop dead at 50+

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138748)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:11 AM
Author: Henna diverse den

obit says "complications from surgery"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138820)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:16 AM
Author: chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office

not a c section i'm quite sure.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138826)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:17 AM
Author: Henna diverse den



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138828)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:26 AM
Author: thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140259)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 3:07 AM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38138817)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 10:36 AM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38139877)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 10:38 AM
Author: glassy racy national

Looks like a lipless reptile w/ shitgenes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38139890)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:11 AM
Author: flickering address incel

I think she was interviewed by some mag a couple of years ago for some "women and the law" spread. Maybe it was a different biglaw partner. She was xo catnip (divorced, no kids, worked 24/7, weathered unhealthy look). I just thought she was a really sad person. She had this big house that looked dark, empty, and unused. She had a clay tennis court in the back that was pristine and unused. The funny thing about it was that there wasn't enough space in the backyard (and it was sloped) so the short walls surrounding the court went almost to the boundary lines of the court. The court was basically for show.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140142)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:15 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

pics? ttt green clay or red clay imported from europe?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140167)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:17 AM
Author: Passionate Marketing Idea

People with more $ than time often make this kind of wistful purchase. I love tennis, so I will have a tennis court. But it doesn't get used, because they don't actually love tennis, or at least they don't love it as much as they love the latest PPP numbers. You see the same thing with people buying commercial grade ovens, even though they order seamless 4x a week, and boomer partners buying $4,500 custom shop guitars that hang on the wall. It's a symbol of the kind of person they used to be, not the kind of person they are.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140186)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:18 AM
Author: Henna diverse den



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140190)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:19 AM
Author: very tactful irate son of senegal old irish cottage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140200)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:20 AM
Author: flickering address incel



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140212)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:54 AM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

I love tennis and spend hours on Xo poasting about it instead of making enough money to buy a court that I can't use :(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140483)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:57 AM
Author: thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed

Absolutely devastating

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140496)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:02 PM
Author: dun bateful stage partner

Of course you never know when a commercial grade tuna oven will come in handy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140523)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:04 PM
Author: White Affirmative Action

Great poast. I know a middle-aged ortho surgeon who has to spend 10k per year, probably more, on custom guitars made by a small batch maker he's enamored with -- real "craftsman." And legitimately, the guitars are beautiful, intricate, handcrafted. He literally does hang them on the wall in a room down in his basement. I've asked him several times to play with me, just for fun, and he always demurs because he "doesn't have the time to practice" and "isn't good enough anymore." "Why do you buy the guitars then?" Because he's "building a collection." Maybe they'll put the guitars in his coffin.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140530)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140831)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 12:51 AM
Author: hairless box office

Xo does this but with knives

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38144525)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:09 PM
Author: Greedy azn



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140555)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:10 PM
Author: internet-worthy home lettuce



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140566)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:51 PM
Author: Stirring idiotic native

lulz. such my dad's O/U shotguns and boat he used to keep at Dana Point

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141089)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:30 PM
Author: magenta pistol ape



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147011)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:57 AM
Author: Greedy azn

Yep. I remember ridiculing her on this bort.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140501)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 3:24 PM
Author: glittery magical toaster

That's why lawyers should be into mechanical keyboards as a hobby.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147285)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:34 AM
Author: lavender shrine nibblets

Amazingly, here's an article about her from 1982. Seems like she was always going to end up like this.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1982/6/10/an-early-retirement-pfor-sandra-seville-jones/

For Sandra Seville-Jones, four years at Harvard have provided great swings of intensity, from fulltime dedication to high-level debating to disenchanted passivity with the College's size and impersonality.

Seville-Jones arrived at Harvard as a heralded public speaker who had been recruited, by schools across the country, known to the nation's large and dedicated circle of debaters for her "absolute, total commitment to the activity," according to Chris Wood '83.

"She was a great, great high school debater and a legend nationally," Wood says. Seville-Jones' "legend" was assured, in fact, in her senior year at the Harvard High School Debate Tournament, when she won the Individual Top Speaker award with a near-perfect score.

Seville-Jones debated at an extremely competitive level in high school, with hours of research, rehearsing, and professional coaching. Lots of travel and fundraising were involved. And she thrived on it. Her reputation and talent continued to grow so dramatically that in her freshman year at Harvard, she and Bill Foutz '80 earned a number one national ranking before losing in the quarter-finals of the championship tournament that spring.

Her debating had become very rewarding but also nerve-wracking because of the demands college competition places on creativity, memory, discipline, and most of all, time. She and Foutz spent months researching the nationwide topic that year, "employment."

"We employed people by building nuclear power plants across the country." she remembers. They prepared extensively to defend the plan's environmental consequences, saying "we had 20 or 30 pages on why nuclear waste was the greatest thing We were going to glassify it, send it to outer space..."

Though she and Foutz placed among the top eight teams in the country Seville-Jones realized after her freshman year that she was missing a lot, and she decided to "take the next year off," referring to debating, not college.

She never did compete seriously again, save for an abortive comeback junior year. Support for debating from the Harvard administration waned, and she grew more and more alienated from the College itself. "The wear and tear on you can be really bad," she explains. "I met no one here my freshman year except my roommates and my roommates' friends."

Today Seville-Jones lives off-campus, deliberately separating herself from the day-to-day life of Harvard. A bad rooming experience sophomore year and frustration over the distance she perceived between herself and her advisors and tutors drove her towards other interests, and towards a lifestyle emphasizing pleasure more than pressure. And with few regrets.

"I was dull. I think getting out of debate has helped me do other things," she says. She has become an avid sports fan with cable television hookups that allow her to follow several baseball teams on a daily basis, and she counts a trip to Los Angeles to see Fernando Valenzuela pitch in the World Series as a highlight of her senior year.

But Seville-Jones misses the intensity and exhilaration that debating brought her, and she hopes her enrollment in Law School this fall will reintroduce challenges she has missed the last three years.

"Law School's competitive, and that's what people in debate want," she explains. "It's that adversary spirit again. It seems like a lot of work, immense. It's a challenge," and apparently one that she is eager to accept, albeit at her own pace.

Seville-Jones still blames Harvard for drastically cutting the debate council's funding, which eliminated coaching and research and discouraged her from competing with the same energy she had shown freshman year. But she does not regret her three-year "retirement."

"There are a lot of things I never would have thought of doing if I were still in debate," she concludes. "I can see where Law School may revert me back to that single-minded self."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140332)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 11:59 AM
Author: Passionate Marketing Idea

the child is father to the man

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140505)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:00 PM
Author: Greedy azn

Interesting. She actually was a perfect personality fit for Biglaw. Guess she really was living her dream.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140515)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:13 PM
Author: Violent Cruise Ship Gunner



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140589)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:08 PM
Author: White Affirmative Action

What's important in this is that, beyond doubt, she advanced the business and litigation interests of the firm and its clients and was rewarded richly for doing so. A life well lived.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140551)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:11 PM
Author: internet-worthy home lettuce



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140571)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:16 PM
Author: Violent Cruise Ship Gunner

*Other partners quickly dialing (and competing with each other for) Ms. Seville-Jones' clients reassuring them that her matters are expeditiously being handed over to them for continuation*

I picture it like that scene from Jerry Maguire where he and the sports agency that just fired him are hurriedly calling Maguire's clients to either retain or poach them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140605)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:09 PM
Author: Passionate Marketing Idea

this is not even parody

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140857)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:24 PM
Author: Primrose razzmatazz headpube



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140646)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: thriller ocher indian lodge half-breed



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140836)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:13 PM
Author: chartreuse mischievous multi-billionaire principal's office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141260)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 12:24 PM
Author: Primrose razzmatazz headpube

Is munger still the most prestigious biglaw litigation firm in the country?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140648)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:14 PM
Author: 180 church

Not surprising that a law firm would issue an obituary that is more an ad for its diversity and inclusion efforts.

Of course she was only managing partner because she is unmarried and had no children. I wonder if on her deathbed she had any regrets in dying alone.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140889)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 4:30 PM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

Meow!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38142037)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:26 PM
Author: Ultramarine alcoholic degenerate

you're a munger for your miserable life and then there are tolles to pay

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140948)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:28 PM
Author: histrionic site quadroon



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:29 PM
Author: mind-boggling orchid police squad

What's a Munger Tolles?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140962)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 1:29 PM
Author: Yapping church building sex offender



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38140965)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:14 PM
Author: dun bateful stage partner

Sad

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141273)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2019 2:28 PM
Author: underhanded death wish pit

"Throughout her tenure, she promoted women attorneys and attorneys of color in the firm and the larger community. During her tenure, more than 60 percent of the firm’s newly elected partners were women and/or attorneys of color. Under her leadership, the firm became one of the first to garner Mansfield Certification Plus, recognizing the significant representation of women and attorneys of color in leadership positions at the firm. She helped revamp the MTO Fellows Program, an initiative aimed at increasing the diversity of the legal profession by helping first generation minority college graduates find their way to and through law school. She spoke frequently at conferences focused on women in law."

Good riddance

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38141375)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:24 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38146976)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:27 PM
Author: Pungent community account step-uncle's house

she was a high school debate GOD

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38146997)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 2:37 PM
Author: Pungent community account step-uncle's house

HUG --> UCLA JD LOL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147050)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 4:48 PM
Author: spectacular chocolate lodge windowlicker

Maybe she moved to LA for her husband. Oh wait.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38147743)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2019 7:46 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38148488)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 4th, 2019 12:41 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy nighttime property voyeur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4248294&forum_id=2#38185922)