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Has the George Luce / Vinson & Elkins email been posted yet?
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:41 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:44 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:45 AM Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:42 AM To: Rumbaugh, Holly; Dennis, Patrick; Lankau, Tim Subject: FW: request to reconsider George Luce
This is a guy I interviewed last week. WTF? -----Original Message----- From: George_Luce@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:George_Luce@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:25 AM To: Johnson, Loreatha Cc: Schick, Robert M.; Davidow, Jennifer; Harvin, David; Pipkin, Emily; Kornegay, Nancy; Mehta, Persis; Murphy, George; Hodge, Justin; Reeder, James; Chatman, Carliss; Held, Kenneth; Lawson, Corey; Powers, Jason; Omar, Amin Subject: request to reconsider George Luce
Dear Loreatha,
I received your letter dated May 11, and I am extremely disappointed that Vinson & Elkins has chosen not to extend me an offer. I remain convinced that V&E is the right firm for me. While it is hard to quibble with the verdict of a panel of 14 people, I believe that a real mistake was made, and I ask that my application be reconsidered.
I assume that V&E's chief objective in hiring new associates is to get the best people it can get. Please consider the fact that in law school, I earned the top score in my section on EVERY PAPER in both of my legal writing courses. (The grading was done anonymously.) My article was selected for publication in the Northwestern Law Review, which is one of the top law reviews in the country. Judge Amy St. Eve, a federal judge with whom I externed, will tell you that I was the best extern she ever had (and her externs were mostly cream-of-the-crop Northwestern students, many of whom went on to federal appellate clerkships). The Judge I work for now, as well as other people with whom I have worked, will tell you that I have unusual talent as a legal analyst. I suggest that before you conclude that I don't measure up to V&E's standards, you ask people with whom I have worked what they think about my work and my abilities. At risk of sounding arrogant, I submit that I would be a standout performer at V&E, even though V&E is an elite firm that can select from among the best candidates.
I sensed that some of my interviewers were uncomfortable with the fact that I am not committed to a specific substantive area of law. I would argue, however, that the tools that we bring to the table as lawyers are far more important than the direct, "relevant" experience we bring. "Practical" experience is no substitute for creative intelligence, intellectual sophistication, and pure tenacity. The career clerk in my judge's chambers has 20+ years of experience, so she knows a lot of things that I don't know. But she is not in my league as a legal analyst and writer. I have seen enough during my clerkship to say with confidence that I am capable of better work - far better work - than most of the "experienced" attorneys who practice before my judge.
As a judicial clerk, I have been deeply immersed in all sorts of cases at every phase of the litigation process. There are many procedural issues that are common across all different substantive areas of law. There are many connections and overlaps between the different substantive areas. Even within a given substantive area, every case is different, turning on its own facts. The relatively inexperienced associates who specialize in a particular area will have only seen a small part of the universe of possible issues that may arise in their area. Given these facts, I am highly skeptical that, say, a 3rd-year associate who has specialized in "oil and gas" is going to be light years ahead of me in that field. The hypothetical 3rd-year associate will certainly know a lot more than I know about the art and practice of lawyering. But it is highly doubtful that her substantive oil and gas knowledge (which of course exceeds mine) will give her a significant advantage over me when it comes time to analyze the next oil and gas case (which will no doubt involve issues that neither of us have seen before). I want to work on interesting, challenging cases, but I don't believe it would be rational for me to arbitrarily limit myself to a specific substantive area of law at this point in my career. I'll find my niche down the road. I would think that V&E would prefer that their new associates be open-minded enough to try different things.
I would also add that there are intangible factors to be considered. I left a lucrative job in my mid-thirties, working hard to score in the top 1% nationwide on the LSAT so I could go to an elite law school. (I was the oldest guy in my class.) When I was a computer programmer, I was a one-man consulting firm, saving my employer (the state of Louisiana) millions of dollars in costs and making the lives of thousands of people (the system's users) easier. Often, I would go to bed at night, half dreaming, half awake, obsessing over a thorny problem that I encountered. When the creative inspiration would come in the morning, those were the greatest thrills of my life. I know what its like to work 80-hour weeks for months on end. I know what's it like to be considered the expert of last resort - the guy they call in the middle of the night when the data gets corrupted and no one else can figure out what to do. I take my work SERIOUSLY and I take great pride in what I do. I would submit that these are the qualities that can make me a "franchise player" at V&E.
I recognize that the chance that you will reconsider and extend me an offer are very slim. (Lawyers tend to be extremely risk-averse and unwilling to do things differently than they've done before.) But please give this request some serious consideration. I suggest that you begin by talking with some of the folks who have worked with me.
Finally, if you are not willing to change your verdict on me, would you please do the favor of giving me some honest feedback about why you were not impressed enough with me to make an offer? Is it my age? (I'm 39, but I'm healthier than most 25-year-olds.) Is it that I'm losing my hair? (I am willing to undergo transplants!) Is it the fact that I wore a pink shirt to my interview? (My wife picked it out.) Is it the fact that I took the Louisiana bar exam before taking the Texas bar exam? (I took the Louisiana exam because I wanted to get licensed in my home state, and I wanted to get it out of the way first because I had to learn all that civil code stuff.) Is it because I have spent most of my life in Louisiana? (Houston is only a 3-hour car ride or a 40-minute plane ride from Baton Rouge.) Is it because I have a minor speech impediment (a "lacerated S")? Is it because I am introverted? Do I come across as arrogant? Too timid? Is it because I'm not committed to a specific substantive area of litigation?
You judged me as a qualified candidate based on my paper credentials, as evidenced by your willingness to expend the resources to bring me in for an interview. I assure you that I am a much better lawyer than even my paper credentials suggest! Please give me another look. It would be a shame if V&E and me are deprived of a mutually profitable relationship because I failed to present myself well in person on May 8.
Sincerely, George Luce |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:49 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:53 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:55 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:56 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:57 AM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:08 PM |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 1:13 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:56 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:56 AM
That is the best thing I have read in awhile. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:57 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:59 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:05 AM
First, who expends that much energy writing to any firm after a ding?
Second, it's V&E. It's in Texas. Why would anyone want to work there so badly? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:10 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:10 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:06 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:05 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:10 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:31 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 11:59 AM
It's not ok to do what this douchebag did. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:05 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:48 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:56 AM
"Is it my age? (I'm 39, but I'm healthier than most 25-year-olds.) Is it that I'm losing my hair? (I am willing to undergo transplants!) ... Is it because I have a minor speech impediment (a "lacerated S")?"
How about all of the above? And nice job of highlighting everything that likely turned them off the first time. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:57 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 1:59 AM
also, i love the pithy "this is a guy i interviewed last week. WTF?" by the guy who forwarded the email.
finally, i love how he butresses his academic qualifications with this amazing factoid: ", I earned the top score in my section on EVERY PAPER in both of my legal writing courses. (The grading was done anonymously.)" |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:00 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:04 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:06 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:03 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:04 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:04 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:04 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:06 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:08 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:09 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:09 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:16 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:18 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 3:47 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:06 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:13 AM
I was messing around on the internet last night when I came across an (embarrassing) email you had sent to Vinson & Elkins - a moderaltely prestigious law firm located in some shit state - expressing your wish to be reconsidered for an associate position. Your letter was long, self-aggrandizing, immodest, disrespectful, and poorly written. The email was posted on a discussion board, by some random person (rumor has it the poster was a sneaky V&E summer associate), and many posters rightly ridiculed you for it. Here is the link:
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=445136&mc=27&forum_id=2
BAFF. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:19 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:20 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:10 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:11 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:13 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:14 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:13 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:15 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:18 AM
Author footnote:
* I wish to thank Professor Max Schanzenbach and Professor Anthony D'Amato for reading and commenting on an earlier draft of this Comment. I also wish to thank Professor D'Amato for teaching me to "think like a lawyer" - and Clinical Professor Susan Provenzano for teaching me to write like one. I thank the editors and staff members of the Northwestern Law Review for their judicious editorial work. I am especially grateful to Executive Editor Chiawen Kiew for graciously accommodating my last-minute revisions. Finally, I thank my family and friends who believed in me - especially my wife Josefina who patiently endured many nights as a "library widow" while I prepared this Comment. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:20 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:23 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:26 AM
SHOULDHAVESEENITCOMINGPWN3D |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:26 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:30 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:17 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:02 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:46 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 8:59 PM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 6:49 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:29 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:05 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:20 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:21 AM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:54 PM
Possibly my favorite post of the year. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:21 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:31 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:03 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:15 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:22 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:26 AM
I love you people. |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 11:21 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:23 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:24 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:32 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:03 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:25 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:28 AM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 6:26 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:26 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:26 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:28 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:30 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:32 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:33 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:34 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:36 AM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:17 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 9:34 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:31 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:43 AM
he's got a decent resume.
he's screwed for really prestigious places, but i'm sure some v100 will probably give him a shot. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:45 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:46 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:45 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:32 AM
Probably not, but it would be funny. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:33 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 2:34 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 3:58 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 4:00 AM http://wc.studentaffairs.duke.edu/wc/images/fof01_CarlissChatman_385px.jpg
WTF? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 4:12 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:23 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:18 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:26 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:15 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:28 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:05 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:27 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 4:38 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:25 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:30 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:42 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:54 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:42 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:53 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:12 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:20 PM
"The career clerk in my judge's chambers has 20+ years of experience, so she knows a lot of things that I don't know. But she is not in my league as a legal analyst and writer." |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:46 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:21 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:49 AM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 10:56 AM sounds like a total venezuelan trophy wife/maid |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 11:17 AM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 6:58 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 11:55 AM
this is almost as good as "bla bla bla"
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:12 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:01 PM
HAHA. Where's Joe_Vaj when we need him? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:03 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:05 PM
You could be law review at Harvard, but if you're a giant douchebag like that dude no one will want to hire you. I think we all know someone like that. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:02 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:06 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:07 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:08 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:12 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:09 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 12:11 PM |
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Date: August 13th, 2006 2:40 AM
Btw, from what I heard from another 1L in our section at the time, George Luce got a C+ in Civ Pro with Hoskins. I wonder if that's true. Anyways, he sure was a nice, friendly guy. I'm sorry to see him getting so publicly pwned. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 4:47 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 4:56 PM
Law review + clerkship --> Ding at Texas oil firm?
LIFEPWN3D |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:08 PM
He wasn't necessarily ON LR, but had his note published. He didn't have a clerkship, but from what I read, it was an externship. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:14 PM
And not even student editors would publish an 85 page note about nothing important for someone who wasn't on LR. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:15 PM
EDIT: Ok, saw that paragraph. RCPWNED. Damn, what a douche |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:21 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:19 PM
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/lawreview/editorialboard/editorialboard2004-2005.html |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:27 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:49 PM
With most journals, everyone becomes some sort of editor. Can any NU students confirm this is true on NULR? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:23 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:25 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:27 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:28 PM
ty |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:44 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:01 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:01 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:05 PM
Does "library widow" even make sense? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:15 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:19 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:08 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:08 PM
I can't believe he put his LSAT % in the letter. Is he fucking insane? And what was with all his IT bullshit?
Offering to get a hair transplant though is what pushes him over the cliff for me. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:14 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:16 PM
Classy guy. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:18 PM
The continued and unnecessary use of parentheses also made this very difficult to read |
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Date: July 1st, 2006 12:46 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:22 PM
Better hope the clerk's office doesn't get wind of this statement before the firm calls to re-check his credentials. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:27 PM
And he says, "At risk of sounding arrogant ..." Who would say something so stoopid.
If not flame, something like this should really ruin his career if their was any justice in the world. |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:28 PM
Have you ever talked to a nontrad? |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:30 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:31 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:32 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:51 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:31 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:33 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:47 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 5:57 PM
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:24 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:27 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:28 PM |
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Date: June 30th, 2006 6:29 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:56 PM
Here are the e-mails (all at velaw.com): rschick, sdavis (PARTNER), jdavidow, dharvin (PARTNER), epipkin, nkornegay, pmehta, grmurphy (PARTNER), jhodge, jreeder (PARTNER), cchatman (the e-mailer herself), kheld (PARTNER), clawson, jpowers, aomar. Then there are the folks that Ms. Chatman sent the e-mail to that most likely leaked it: hrumbaugh, pdennis, tlankau.
Ms. Chatman, If you are reading this... You chose the wrong people to trust. Next time take out names and such before you forward this around. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:58 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:08 PM
P.S.: What the hell were you thinking? |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:15 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:17 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:18 PM
Also, FYI, telling everybody how smart you are is not the way to get a job, make friends, or accomplish anything else in life. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:19 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:19 PM
Oh my God... |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:50 PM
see the last comment http://prdifferently.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/what_not_to_do_.html |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:23 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:59 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:22 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:29 PM
As for the "career clerk" slight, that's just BS. I wish there was some way of that getting into the hands of the judge (not the career clerk). |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:31 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:33 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:15 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:20 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:22 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:28 PM
remember when searching miserable failure pointed you at the white house site? thats how they did it. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:46 PM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 12:33 AM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 12:39 AM http://drunklaw.blogspot.com/2006/07/schadenfreude.html |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 12:45 AM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 12:44 AM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 12:45 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 7:33 PM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 1:09 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 7:47 PM
pwn3d!!!! |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 7:49 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 7:50 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 8:34 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 9:11 PM You know, except for the paragraph about his experience as an extern, most of this isn't THAT bad. The last paragraph is probably a bit embarassing, but sometimes people make rash decisions.
You don't trash / insult the abilities of others though. That's classless. |
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Date: July 28th, 2006 12:33 PM |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 11:06 AM |
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Date: August 13th, 2006 5:25 PM |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 11:20 AM |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 11:22 AM |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 11:30 AM
This guy wasnt hired because he wasnt qualified or because of his age. He wasnt hired becuase hes a COMPLETE DOUCHEBAG. God who wants people like him as co-workers. He'd be a total cancer to the firm and bring down everyones morale and work product. |
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Date: March 13th, 2007 12:51 PM |
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Date: June 9th, 2007 2:41 PM
http://www.lsba.org/membership/LSBA_Membership.asp?ID=2006569
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Date: May 3rd, 2007 5:44 PM |
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Date: June 8th, 2007 7:09 PM |
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Date: May 3rd, 2007 6:01 PM |
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Date: June 9th, 2007 12:41 PM
I was in George's section in my first year law class. George is a terrific guy and I hate to see this happening to such a genuinely good person (No, I am not George).
George may have made an error in judgment. If we were all judged solely by the worst decisions we made, none of us would look good in a thread such as this one.
In the event that prospective employers may read this in the future, take it from someone who attended law school with him: George is an industrious, bright guy. He made a mistake and I'm sure he has learned from it. |
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Date: June 9th, 2007 1:16 PM |
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Date: June 9th, 2007 1:21 PM |
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Date: June 9th, 2007 2:07 PM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 7:01 PM
Carliss Chatman, I wouldn't hire you to fight a $20 traffic ticket. You suck.
http://www.morganlewis.com/index.cfm/personID/757ea85c-989f-45a3-ad0f-f616844b73fa/fromSearch/1/fuseaction/people.viewBio |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 7:27 PM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 7:36 PM |
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Date: August 22nd, 2008 11:47 PM |