Women's "sexuality" is largely irrelevant, since they just receive sex. In the ancestral evolutionary environment, women's role was to be taken; that's why they experience 'body betrayal' orgasm and Stockholm syndrome.

A "bisexual" woman is just a woman given to putting on a certain kind of "please rape me" show (femme), or a woman trying to avoid the wrong type of rape (Butch). This is not a 'sexuality' but rather performative.

Men who enjoy fucking men in preference to women are gay (homosexual), in the same way that a guy who fucks even a single goat is a goatfucker. Homosexuality is learned (cultural) behavior, as history and logic show. Homosexuality is not genetic (https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/group-selection-and-homosexuality/ (debunking "gay uncle" theory)) or epigenetic (https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/homosexuality-epigenetics-and-zebras/). Further, the form of "homosexuality" is not invariant across time or across cultures (e.g., https://en.protothema.gr/homsexuality-in-ancient-greece-fact-or-fiction/ ), and homosexuality cannot be explained by hormone transfer or birth order ( https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/341906 ).

The etiology for homosexuality must therefore be environmental. There is no evidence for Gregory Cochran's viral hypothesis. An alternative hypothesis, which I favor, is that homosexuality is a culturally-mediated and environmentally-transmitted pattern of behavior/personality trait which is learned during the patterned soft assembly of gender and sexuality (see generally https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9780203837849/gender-soft-assembly-adrienne-harris ).

In short, yes: gays reproduce by molestation.

Thank you.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45515981)

Unfortunately we may never discover whether they were genetically doomed to be morons from birth or if it was mediated by environmental factors (e.g. brick to face)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#46796476)

the 'muddy middle' on the margins of the ends of the curve is where socialization, incentives, molestations, etc. take effect.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45515994)

(Roughly same explanation for higher incidence of homosexuality among twins + dudes with many brothers. You can do the math on why.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516001)

Of note, the studies in question are not longitudinal studies that take kids and predict which will turn out gay. And even if we had such studies, it wouldn't mean that homosexuality is genetic; instead, it could mean that there's a genetically-mediated diathesis to be susceptible to learning homosexuality during soft assembly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516024)

My point is that this genetic propensity to fagginess creates a susceptibility to be molested and thus learn the culturally-transmitted 'identity' of homosexuality, which latches on to the soft assembly of gender & sexuality. It's not a genetic propensity to be gay.

Faginess, in raw form, is just a general propensity for deviance, in the sense of deviating from growth and maturation norms.

Homosexuality is akin to a personality disorder — maybe isomorphic. Those who can transmit it have a good intuition for victims; there's cultural evolution hooking on to the normal soft assembly of gender and sex.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516039)

It's OK to be gay, you know. Many of our finest poasters are gay.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516696)

bisexual means attracted to both genders

words have meaning

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516697)

https://ibb.co/zrGTPz3

It's OK to be homosexual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516720)

bisexual

adjective

bi·​sex·​u·​al (ˌ)bī-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl -shəl

1

a

see usage paragraph below : of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's same sex and of the opposite sex

also : of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's own gender identity and of other gender identities

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516728)

Bisexuals are homosexual. My point is even a jot of homosexuality (strict preference for male>female) = homosexual.

Any homosexual might also have sex with a woman, in extremis at least. Many homosexuals throughout history kept "in the closet" as they raised normal families, and sometimes even enjoyed sex with women.

Anyway, I don't think we have a real as opposed to verbal disagreement and it's a garden path point.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516739)

ill also say enjoying sex is not the same as being attracted to someone. its like how prisoners go gay in jail and return to fucking women on the street.

edit: they probably became aroused thinking about something else and then used the hole

there's a scene in GoT we the princess or w/e was trying to have sex with her gay husband, he couldnt get aroused so she brought in her brother. i wouldnt call him attracted to women

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516865)

See the goatfucker example in OP.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516994)

also, surely there are plenty of gays that were not molested and also grew up in an environment where homosexuality was demonized.

it seems obvious to me that faggots have existed during times where homosexuality was severely repressed, and also that not all homosexuals during that time were molested. i agree that some homosexuals are created through molestation, but there also must be many homosexuals who are that way for some other reason. strongest evidence being that even when homosexuality was punishable by death there have been underground groups of men fucking and sucking with abandon. if someone is going to risk their life to suck cock that is a pretty strong indication they are strongly compelled to do so, and i cannot believe that 100% of them learned that compulsion from being molested.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516477)

Next, you raise the issue that "surely there are plenty of gays that were not molested and also grew up in an environment where homosexuality was demonized." But I don't see the force of this objection -- it's a sexuality/compulsion, and emerges out of a psychopathic/narcissistic personality structure from S&M. Just the sort of thing social censure can suppress, but seldom eliminate. And we have seen a trend of increasing homosexuality identification as gay acceptance spreads -- perhaps a survey effect (people more inclined to admit it), but plausibly at least in part because there is more open molestation going on.

Last, you discuss the strength of compulsion to suck cock, etc. But that doesn't distinguish a genetic/epigenetic/prenatal hormone/viral theory from an environmental one of the type I am describing; adolescents & kids learn all sorts of stuff they'd compulsively do even on pain of death. (E.g., left-handedness, or religion.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516642)

i'm just talking out of my ass according to my own life experiences and knowledge of history, so don't expect me to match your scholarship. but it is much appreciated and i am enjoying it.

>But I don't see the force of this objection -- it's a sexuality/compulsion, and emerges out of a psychopathic/narcissistic personality structure from S&M.

does s&m = sadism and masochism? as in sadistic types will seek to dominate others?

at the end of the day, it is hard for me to accept that it is every truly possible to accurately explain people's behaviors and motivations. it seems like we're too complicated for that. not trying to dismissive of what you're saying because the scholarship is very persuasive. it's just hard for me to accept that environment is the cause of 100% of homosexuality. surely there are people that are just gay and became that way despite no environmental triggers. we've all know dudes in school that were extremely feminine and turned out to be gay. this occurred before puberty. and i doubt all of them were feminine because of environment reasons. surely there are twins out there where one is gay and one isn't despite being raised identically and neither being molested or exposed to more gay shit.

you seem to admit that some guys are just "more feminine" and, historically at least, resulted in them getting molested and turning gay. but what causes them to be more feminine in the first place? and in 2022 (or, let's say 1990 when people weren't encouraged to be gay), many of them were likely not raped or encourage to be feminine or had any other environmental trigger. that's "just how they are." i am not qualified to explain what other factors my cause a boy to grow up to be feminine and then turn into a homosexual, but i have a hard time believing that environment is the sole factor.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516831)

S&M as I used it there = sadomasochism, yes. There's an element of S&M to most (all?) homosexual relationships, with the older partner typically turning out the younger then the younger growing up and hazing new people, etc.

I'm not claiming a 100% cause or to have all of this figured out. I'm saying that genetic, prenatal, nonshared environment, etc. are insufficiently explanatory, and there's a significant social learning effect (mediated by all the other stuff). That's all.

On top of that, there's going to be much randomness -- in fact, the stochasticity of the human organism seems to confer some survival advantages over uncertain environs. Cf. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21807641/ -- all we can do is identify patterns, the rest is noise. So, there will always be freaks and prodigies.

I discourse on the other question re: the original diathesis to molestation (being faggy/weird/a victim/target, or alternatively being perversely sadistic/dominating etc.) elsewhere -- I acknowledge this effect, and indeed I think that this disposition is what the cultural 'adaptation' (patterned system of behavior with biocultural replication) of homosexuality hooks on to.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516990)

serious: the biggest turning point for me in accepting homosexuality is innate and likely some mixture of environmental and physical factors come from growing up a couple doors down to two fags. both were in their 30s when i was a teen, and they were both stoners, so sometimes i would go hang out with them/buy weed. they were both ordinary dudes who you would never guess are gay. they also never made a move on me and i felt completely safe.

one time i asked them about being gay (180 90s moment where people felt comfortable having convos like this without being accused of bigotry, etc). i have always been "super straight" and found men repulsive. i was asking about it, how it happened, whether they felt it was a choice, etc.

one dude responded: do you think i would choose to be like this and hated by so many people if i could?

really had an impact me. of course i can't say for certain that he didn't become gay because of environment reasons. lots of gays don't even "like" being gay. they just can't help that they are attracted to cock. it's really hard for me to believe that there isn't some cocktail of factors that certainly includes, but is not exclusively, environment.

funny anecdote: i was in BIG SALES before law school. one of the other salesman was this troll like black faggot. mid 40s, short, fat, no physical redeeming qualities. his kink was turning out older straight men. he would constantly target older male customers, get real cozy with them, etc. and his success rate of "turning" them was astounding. he'd always be like "remember mr. johnson? yeah... i fucked him in the warehouse."

well, he got into a pretty serious relationship with one of his clients. we served mostly wealthy people. dude was a total blood blue guy and had been married for 50 years. legit old money wealth, lived on this massive estate, etc. anyway, their relationship continued for a while... until his wife found out and put an end to it.

how did she find out? they had left one of their "home videos" in the vcr or dvd player. she turned it on and out popped vivid video of her elderly husband getting his asshole reamed by this al roker lookalike.

still makes me chuckle (and a little sad) to imagine what that moment must have been like for her.

black salesbro was MAF because he thought it was love and he was going to leave his wife for him.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517212)

ugh, gross re: the old Al Roker queer fella.

also:

i have always been "super straight" tp

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517267)

that al roker guy was 180. a complete kook though. one time he literally "casted a hex on me", with 100% seriousness, because he thought i stole a sale from him.

if i was like 1 on the kinsey scale i'd shoot for being gay to avoid the curse of dealing with women. unfortunately i find men repugnant and unappealing, and male-on-male sexuality makes me physically ill.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517318)

See quote from Friston paper below (link https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.585493/full ) below laying out basics of script theory (the full paper is worth a read), and note that there's a Vast Empirical Literature on homosexual "scripts" (e.g., Brown, G.; Maycock, B.; Burns, S. Your Picture Is Your Bait: Use and Meaning of Cyberspace among Gay Men. Journal of Sex Research 2005, 42 (1), 63–73. https://doi.org/10.1080/00224490509552258 )

***

>>>

Script Theory: Background

Scripts harness the knowledge involved in situationally appropriate behavior to achieve an intended social goal. Scripts are especially relevant in situations where there is uncertainty concerning the intent of the social partner. The appropriateness of a script is bound to cultural context. Take for instance flirting. The North-American middle class traditional flirting script has been aptly described by Metts and Spitzberg (1996). The flirting script involves signaling one’s intent by incrementally ensuring that similar intent is shared. This entails:

(1) Engaging in discussion on a topic.

(2) Expressing non-verbal behaviors that do not provide evidence that the agent will reach the intended goal (sexual intercourse).

(3) Moving toward topics and behavior related to the intended goal.

Steps 1 to 3 take the form of engaging in small talk; and if it is reciprocated, of choosing to ask more personal questions (e.g., moving from more distant to more personal ones) and enacting behavior (e.g., increasing closeness) that conforms to the interaction goal. If one pursues the flirting script, and starts behaving in a way that is more sexually forward, but their potential partner does not respond or enacts another script, it is safer to assume that they are not interested in engaging in a sexual encounter.

This sequencing says something about the relation between internalization of scripts and the assumption of normalcy or universality. In certain subcultures, like the swinger community (Kimberly, 2016), or gay saunas (Brown et al., 2005; Kimberly, 2016), the reality of the social scripts is equally codified (e.g., with specific locales and ways of acting), but leads to the outcome (sex) differently. Scripts speak to social goals, and communicate the enactment of these shared goals to the people around us.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516715)

Obviously at least some of it is environmental. I think about the Adam Carolla story where he used to say all lesbians were created by abuse. But there are definitely gays and lesbians who seem "born that way." Regarding the opposite-sex twin study above, doesn't it suggest that perhaps having a female sibling with them in the womb might interfere w the testosterone wave? Arguably they should have separate sacs and could maybe be exposed to different levels of things, but I could see there being an accidental override of sorts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516745)

The hormone theory is addressed in passing in my OP:

>>>>and homosexuality cannot be explained by hormone transfer or birth order ( https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/341906 ).

Regarding hormone wave or whatever: there are good reasons to doubt hormones play all that much of a causal role in homosexuality. Direct tests have yielded little. Also there's indirect evidence, like the lack of a parental age effect (see https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/paternal-age-and-homosexuality/ )

Also, there's evidence against a hormonal theory, and strong evidence for social learning, in studies of e.g. androgen insensitive kids who are raised one way or the other (create the right genitalia or not):

Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, Hormones and Homosexuality, 3 Psychiatric Clinics of North America 349 (1980), https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0193953X18309705 (last visited Nov 19, 2022) (images just below are quotes from this)

https://ibb.co/7QmBbTj

https://ibb.co/xL8hh2p

https://ibb.co/Jx1z7W4

See also this 2011 review, which failed to rule out social learning despite the obviously strong motivation to do so: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/

(conclusion: https://ibb.co/1GMTyYR )

And this excellent recent review (Bailey, J. M., Vasey, P. L., Diamond, L. M., Breedlove, S. M., Vilain, E., & Epprecht, M. (2016). Sexual Orientation, Controversy, and Science. Psychological Science in the Public Interest, 17(2), 45–101. https://doi.org/10.1177/1529100616637616 ) in which the secretly red-pilled authors drop many hints re: what is really going on, e.g., https://ibb.co/sH2Sz2G but ultimately and nonsensically conclude that unspecified, unknown Dark Matter factors, not social learning, explain homosexuality.

To be sure, some kids are more femme and faggy or whatever to start with, and it's somewhat obvious. But (i) there's confirmation bias for this stuff, we have few prospective studies; and, (ii) faggy kids are more likely to attract molestation and bullying. So, predisposition to being femme/faggy whatever is a mediator variable -- a disposition.

Likewise, it's no answer to the social learning hypothesis I've presented to note that homosexuals tend to report having homosexual fantasies before their first gay experience. That is just how grooming works! (And under perceptual processing theory & scripting theory, thoughts are on a fluid continuum with behaviors.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45516889)

If you disagree, I'm open to arguments about why.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517074)

>>>"Body betrayal" and "Stockholm syndrome" are a very convenient throwaway talking points that nobody can inherently disprove as the former has no possible equivalent in men and the latter is sufficiently vague that you can ultimately shape it to be whatever you like.

Why do you think it the case that the absence of body betrayal orgasms in men means "nobody can inherently disprove" an unspecified "talking point"? Rape orgasms in women are a fact; so is capture/trauma bonding. I gave what I think is a cogent explanation, rooted in evolution, to explain these observed facts. You seem to have no answer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517226)

Rape orgasms in men are impossible, you have nothing to compare it to. How many men get erections during rape, though?

"so is capture/trauma bonding."

How much more common is it in men vs women? I would be very surprised if the gap is large enough to write it off as an experience unique to women.

How does a woman's position relative to men in terms of heterosex instantly invalidate any discussion of whether or not there may be a biological basis for homosexuality in women?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517256)

it's hard to imagine a scenario. but i bet if you took an extremely horny teenage, tied him up, and had someone he found unattractive fuck him/suck his cock against his will - he'd cum.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517289)

It seems to me you have not addressed this central point.

In all events, you say:

>>>"Rape orgasms in men are impossible, you have nothing to compare it to. How many men get erections during rape, though?"

One might cavil about "impossible," but in all events, the comparison is not relevant: men can have rape orgasms or not, and the argument re: the pertinence of female sexuality to selection (which depends centrally on women being the weaker sex) will remain unchanged.

And yes, women are far more likely to experience 'traumatic' bonding, coerced marriage, Stockholm syndrome, etc. They are also weaker than men, so this experience is relevant to drawing evo psych inferences about the EEA. (Not sure why "uniquely" would be the standard. Special pleading.)

You also ask:

>>>How does a woman's position relative to men in terms of heterosex instantly invalidate any discussion of whether or not there may be a biological basis for homosexuality in women?

IF you have strong evidence for a genetic basis for female homosexuality, by all means, present it. I doubt there is any since homosexuality (viz. preferring inherently non-procreative sex) won't by definition & logic be selected for, and because males are the stronger sex and could simply take women in the EEA.

*(re the EEA, see https://1library.net/article/environment-of-evolutionary-adaptedness-theoretical-clarifications.y4gov70y )

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517378)

"Unfair that my lib fantasy premise requires square pegs to fit in round holes"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517283)

https://www.proquest.com/openview/b1d5eec55bea82b705323069b9cf68a2/1.pdf

)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517247)

Flame? Seems like best chance of passing on ur genes would be having a lot of sex with several women vs. raping a bunch of women a few times. Women don't get pregnant right away; you can't exactly plan your rapes around a woman's ovulation cycle.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517300)

But note that limited female choice doesn't imply promiscuity. Consider coerced / arranged marriages.

Monogamy is very common, but it is only very recently that women had significant choice about whom to mate with.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491201000316

(There are also issues of epigenetics — imprinting of male vs female genes, etc., but that's a different topic.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45517467)

but i read Mishima's 'Confession of a Mask' a long time ago, and he seemed to give an account of his 'homosexual' desires making themselves vividly apparent to him from a young age (childhood), completely unbidden and unconditioned, which seemed to mirror what heterosexual people experience w/ their awareness of opposite-sex attraction from an early age.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45518913)

(Query whether you buy what your gay colleague says. Has he taken an interest in the lad??

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553258)

I think you’re discounting the possibility that it’s just satan and by that I don’t mean satan working through the tranny post op scars on Blues Clues but literally satan just acting directly on this small child and turning him deviant, and that of course this would present as a “disorder” but fundamentally it’s just the perception of evil in this localized form. In that sense not exactly genetic, but also not what we typically mean when we talk about environmental factors.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553492)

RE Satan, I take a compatibilist view.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553529)

i'm not going to discount the germ theory of homosexuality so easily, though. it's true that there's no evidence yet, but it would be a lot cleaner explanation

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45520894)

I don't completely dismiss it. Could be persuaded.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45521327)

also possible this should be limited by the word "successful" or "lasting"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553557)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553694)

[An aside: cities grew out of a bunch of Manson-like family cults that joined together of convenience.]

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45553580)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45559915)

WSJ

The world remains stunned at what can only be described as a shocking and terrifying new trend among parents – kidnapping their own adult children and sending them to reeducation camps. While no one knows exactly where these mysterious facilities are hidden or how many oppressive regimes support them, recent reports from both victims themselves and various experts suggest that aside from language instruction some parents often force left handedness onto right handed people in an attempt to shape behavior they see as inappropriate under certain cultural norms.

"It's not something I'd ever experienced before," says Joanne Campbell*, who was kidnapped along with her twin brother soon after celebrating their 20th birthday last year by two men claiming they were police officers sent on behalf of her father. She later discovered she had been taken hundreds of miles away so she could master another language while also being drilled into changing her dominant hand "Everything changed immediately — all my plans disintegrated, like everyone else in authority was more powerful than us." No other family members knew what happened until months afterward when Anna chanced upon Facebook posts which revealed news about several missing young adults across different states apparently undergoing similar experiences– including some twins just like herself.

"These activities are extremely detrimental to the mental and emotional health of many victims," says Dr. Thomas Jackson, a psychology professor at Brown University who specializes in cult dynamics and controversial parenting strategies, “Not only is kidnapping illegal on an international level but it also severely violates ethical standards which secure morale obligations from parents towards their children."

Other experts have warned that, in addition to being immoral, handedness and language reeducation is likely to be ineffective. "It's true that neither handedness nor the language one speaks is innate. However, that doesn't mean they can be changed in adults as easily, not to mention it may produce significant and possibly life long trauma," says Dr. Jessica Rich, a physician-ethicist at Harvard School of Medicine.

The trend has become so controversial that even lawmakers have had to take action – protests were organized outside many embassies demanding the end of these practices with countries like Norway, Sweden and France already passing legislation prohibiting all handedness or language reeducation camps.* Markets too seem increasingly shaken by this news: Private airlines stocks dropped 1% while bilingual education companies saw their shares surge 8%, though analysts are expecting some sort of stabilization soon when more information comes out about exactly what's happening on the inside.

Meanwhile, those who have experienced reeducation camps say the cost to their lives and families has been immeasurable. "I can never forgive my parents for sending me away like that," says 23 year old Barny*, speaking from his home in Toronto which he only returned too a few months ago after being held captive at one such facility nearly two years back. “They thought they were forcing change on us but all we really wanted was freedom".

*Names have been changed to protect identities

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5238243&forum_id=2#45576502)