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NORTHWESTERN takes 400 from waitlist
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Date: May 30th, 2007 8:53 AM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Higher education | Despite the national trend of universities admitting fewer students from their waiting lists, two elite Illinois schools are admitting more students compared with last year's figures.
May 29, 2007 BY BEN GOLDBERGER AND ANJALI ATHAVALEY It's the purgatory of college admissions. Neither in nor out, the wait list is an angst-ridden holding pen for hopeful high school seniors. And while 2007 is shaping up as a down year for wait list admissions nationally, two elite Illinois schools are bucking the trend and turning to their lists at more than double last year's rate.
The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, the state's flagship university, is admitting a sizeable chunk of its incoming freshman class from the wait list. Of the 625 students on the school's list, nearly 370 have been admitted -- a massive increase over 2006, when only 66 students were admitted off of a 678-student list. And U. of I., which is still conducting its admissions process, may yet add more students from its list, said Keith Marshall, associate provost for enrollment management there.
Wait-list stigma Northwestern University, in Evanston, also admitted more students from its wait list this year than it did last year. "I think we're going to it a little bit more this year," said Mike Mills, associate provost for enrollment management at Northwestern. The university offered admission to about 400 of the roughly 1,350 students on its wait list -- nearly double the almost 225 students admitted from the list in 2006.
"I glean that there seems to be some stigma attached to pulling from wait lists that's not really attached to the culture at Northwestern," Mills said.
DePaul University, in Lincoln Park, admitted all 25 students from its wait list. But that sort of acceptance rate is extremely rare -- especially for top-tier colleges juggling the massive disparity between space and demand.
The University of Chicago is admitting zero students from its list, which puts the elite Hyde Park school in good company around the country.
The reason for the national downturn in wait list acceptances, many colleges say, is that they underestimated their yields -- the percentage of students accepted who decide to attend. With unexpectedly high numbers of acceptances, these schools are filling their slots quickly.
The yields surprised many schools, which had been preparing for more wait-list activity after a couple of years of tight admissions. Though it has always been a long shot to get in off the wait list at many schools, the odds have become worse in the past few years. This year, with applications pouring in, and students applying to multiple schools, admissions officers had anticipated more overlap, so they were especially conservative in their yield forecasts. Many increased the number of slots offered on wait lists, expecting to then fill out their enrollment from the bench.
The Common Application But at many selective schools, that scenario hasn't played out. The University of Pennsylvania had expected that 65 percent of the 3,614 admitted would accept -- slightly lower than last year -- because it was the first year the university switched to the Common Application, which makes it easier for students to apply online to multiple schools. But the yield came in at 67 percent.
''Conventional wisdom ... is that students are less serious with the Common Application, but that has not proven to be true for us,'' said Lee Stetson, dean of admissions at the University of Pennsylvania.
Yields are highly important to schools and are closely watched by competing colleges, potential donors and status-conscious applicants as indicators of a school's appeal. But they have become harder to predict in recent years. For one, the number of seniors graduating from high school has been rising for more than a decade, according to the National Association for College Admission Counseling.
Yields will become even more volatile in the future. The Education Department predicts that the rise in the number of high-school seniors will continue until at least 2013. At this point in the admissions cycle, students who remain on college wait lists can do little to sway their school of choice: the process will be largely over by early June.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/404696,CST-NWS-wait29.article |
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Date: May 30th, 2007 12:38 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea Hmm... NU admits 400 from its waitlist; DePaul admits only 25: therefore DePaul is 16 times as selective as NU (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8187361) |
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Date: May 30th, 2007 11:12 PM Author: Orange adventurous legend Looks like NU is utilizing the WUSTL hustle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8190043) |
Date: May 30th, 2007 11:17 PM Author: gold telephone church building Jeezus. Good year to be waitlisted at NU. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8190066) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 10:23 AM Author: Very tactful territorial wagecucks lay Subject: Any word on the extent to which the Ivies and other elites are resorting to their waitlists? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8191439) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 10:42 AM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Most, with the exception of Yale, have given some indication. Yale usually plays it close to the vest, reporting at the end of August or later. There was a rumor - unconfirmed - of 46 from the WL at Yale, and reports of 30 or so at Harvard and Princeton. 25 estimated at Penn and none at Stanford, which over-enrolled. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8191507) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 10:47 AM Author: cracking quadroon antidepressant drug god northwestern sucks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8191527) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 11:50 AM Author: Irradiated marketing idea they thought their yield would be higher than it was. At the risk of repeating myself: yield is not a measure of institutional quality. It measures the predictive ability of a given school's admissions department. Having to go to the waitlist is no more shameful than McDonald's making too many hamburgers because they expected an extra busload of third graders coming from a field trip. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:13 PM Author: Infuriating coral space yield might not be a direct measure of institutional quality, but i dont know to what extent it measures the predictive ability of an admissions dept. admissions tries to predict what the yield will be based on history and in turn accepts a corresponding percentage of applicants. universities with higher yield will have a higher perceived level of quality than others. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:21 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea You really can't see that by being better able to predict who will attend, they can admit fewer people -- thus appearing to be more selective -- and get more acceptances from the people they do admit -- thus getting a higher yield? Notice further how this has everything to do with the predictive ability of the admissions department, and nothing to do with institutional quality: realize that a TTTT like DePaul only took 25 ppl from the waitlist -- they knew who was using them as a safety or target school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8191914) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:01 PM Author: Infuriating coral space so appearing more selective means a higher yield? what about tufts? high selectivity, low yield ok so depaul has good predictive ability, but that doesnt mean its yield is high. number off the waitlist might be a good measure of an admissions dept predictive ability but yield isnt |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:17 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea better prediction has two effects which do not necessarily correlate. if you can pinpoint who will attend you can get 100% yield. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:31 PM Author: deranged area "universities with higher yield will have a higher perceived level of quality than others."
If you think that's true, you should be talking about the actual yield itself, not the over or underestimation of the yield as calculated by the admissions office. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:39 PM Author: Infuriating coral space yea in rereading that line i realized i miswrote it. i meant to say, those schools with a higher perceived level of quality will likely have a higher yield than others. i was agreeing with his first point that yield might not be a measure of actual quality, but rather perceived quality/overall experience (fun, weather, etc) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8191991) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:44 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea one thing that schools do that bugs 'fan is deny admission to high scoring ppl whose stats indicate they would never actually attend. But knowing who's likely to come allows schools to build a diverse freshman class. Decreasing the percent admitted and raising the yield are just helpful byproducts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192010) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 2:00 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre The "byproduct" that looms the largest, of course, is the chance to goose the school's US News ranking.
Schools are free to play this game, and many do.
What "bugs" me is that all the "enrollment management" types, with their computer analyses on zip codes, etc., rob many applicants of the right to choose their best available school.
What's good business for the schools is often a disaster for the applicants. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:23 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Yield may well be a measure of quality - or at least selelectivity - but it is not always a negative to utilize the waitlist.
Ideally, schools will try to program in at least some use of the waitlist in order to "fine tune" the class with cherry-picked admits possessing the desired skill set or demographic characteristics.
By the same token, it is usually not a welcome development to over-enroll so as to preclude admissions from the waitlist. Not only are you prevented from adjusting class demographics, but if the class size is larger than anticipated, there may be housing headaches, in ability to admit transfers for lack of room, and other unfortunate consequences. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:29 PM Author: deranged area "god northwestern sucks"
Because they weren't good at predicting their yield?
And wasn't this the first year Northwestern did the Common App? |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:44 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: Yes. http://www.northwestern.edu/observer/issues/2006/04/13/common.html
On the other hand, Penn also went to the common app this year, but came closer to predicting its eventual yield. The fact that Penn fills a larger fraction of the class via binding ED probably has something to do with it. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:46 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea College rankings agencies should compare regular yields only if they can't ignore yield altogether. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192016) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:16 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: I agree. RD yield - or "open market yield" as it is sometimes called - is the best basis for comparison. Even then, you'd need an asterisk for schools using yield-boosting devices such as "merit" aid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192138) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:17 PM Author: swollen sexy indian lodge factory reset button Do you have these RD yield numbers for this year? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192145) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:50 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Well, I have some rough approximations, but accurate numbers won't be available until all the waitlist action, summer melt, etc is out of the way ... in September, when we see who actually shows up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192309) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 12:58 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake Except that even though Penn had a 2,000+ application bump with the common app this year, it accepted the same numbers ED and RD as it did last year, and still will have a 50%+ RD yield and 67% total yield. So ED doesn't seem to have played much of a role in the common app/yield dynamic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192063) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:18 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Penn filled a higher fraction of the class via binding ED for 2011 than it did two years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192150) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 2:32 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake Though that statement may be technically correct, your implication is disingenuous:
2011--1160 ED admits 2010--1180 ED admits 2009--1160 ED admits 2008--1129 ED admits 2007--1122 ED admits
The number of ED admits has been pretty consistent, as has the total entering class size of 2400. FYI, 2 years ago Penn had a much higher than expected RD yield (resulting in some overcrowding and a subsequent cutback in RD acceptances for the classes of '10 and '11), so that two years ago, Penn actually did fill a slightly lower fraction of the class via binding ED. That, however, was an anomaly. AND, it has nothing to do with a comparison of the class of '10--pre-common app--with the class of '11--first use of common app. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:36 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre I believe there are 1,178 ED admits to date for Penn out of 4,115 applicants. Note also THIS:
"29% of early app students admitted Admit rate up from last year due to smaller applicant pool
Jon Meza
Penn has accepted 29 percent of early applicants for the Class of 2011, a group that will make up about 48 percent of the total class.
Last year, the University accepted 28 percent of its early applicants, and this year's slight rise in the acceptance rate comes in conjunction with a 2.5 percent decrease in early decision applications..."
http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2007/01/12/News/29.Of.Early.App.Students.Admitted-2628590.shtml |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 8:59 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake Unless you have another source, I believe your ED numbers are not correct. As the DP article states, the ED admits will make up about 48% of the total class (2400), which would mean about 1152 ED admits. Also, there was a slightly higher (less than 1%) ED admit rate this year compared to last year, because of a slightly smaller (2.5%) ED applicant pool this year. I believe there were about 4,000 ED applicants this year, which also works out given that 29% (or about 1160) were admitted.
So again, the number of ED admits, and the ED percentage of the entering class, has stayed fairly constant over the last several years, except for the one glitch 2 years ago when RD yield was higher than expected resulting in the ED percentage of the class being slightly lower. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:13 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre The DP is notoriously unreliable when it comes to admissions stories. Note that they somehow manage to write the story I linked without giving ANY hard numbers! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194373) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 10:09 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake I know--but I put the numbers together from other sources and corroboration (including statements by Stetson in other publications). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194609) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 10:14 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Suit yourself. I consider my source's estimate reliable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194632) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 11:03 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake Actually, we're both making it more complicated than it has to be. Here's Penn's official stats for class of '10:
http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/applying/profile.php
4120 ED applications, with 1181 (28.7%) admitted ED. We know that ED applications fell 2.5% for the class of '11 (confirmed by several on line sources), meaning about 4017 ED applicants for class of '11. We also know from several on line sources that 29% were admitted ED this year, meaning that about 1165 were admitted ED.
So once again, pretty consistent number of ED admits between last year and this year with--if anything--a slight decrease in the number of ED admits this year. Regardless, clearly very little impact by ED on the 2000+ additional RD applications this year (whether from adoption of common app or whatever) and on the sustained or even increased yield in the face of those additional RD apps. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:16 PM Author: buff roommate goal in life Penn is not Northwestern.
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:22 PM Author: Irradiated marketing idea Yeah, NU's has a much better location, as well as having the premier journalism school. Plus NU's theater school trained such actors as Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Jeri 7/9 Ryan, Charlton Heston, and Ann-Margret. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194410) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:25 PM Author: buff roommate goal in life I suspect NU has a high yield for journalism, theater, music, and communications students. I suspect it has a much lower yield for most of the College of Arts and Sciences. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194428) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 8:04 PM Author: cracking quadroon antidepressant drug whatever. they just suck in general. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194012) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:19 PM Author: buff roommate goal in life That's a ridiculous claim from a petty person. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194399) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:20 PM Author: Talented Talking Ticket Booth Headpube Having to take 400 people from a waitlist -- is that over 20% of the freshman class -- is a huge deal
To their credit, they're clearly not focused purely on yield numbers -- like WUSTL and schools that bundle admits into non-core programs as front-door yield statistics (i.e., Cornell's state school colleges, Penn's nursing school) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:30 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: I disagree with two of your points. I'd say Penn and Cornell play it straight by reporting a single overall yield rate.
I've always thought it was Columbia that played games by refusing (except on occasion when it serves their interest) to include combined common admit and yield stats for all undergraduates.
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And before you award Northwesterm a gold star, you should bear in mind that in its case, Northwestern will RAISE its yield rate by taking 400 from the waitlist. Just consider: if they had filled those 400 seats in the RD round - at, say, a 40% yield rate - they would have had to admit a THOUSAND extra applicants rather than 400! |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:35 PM Author: Dull slippery dingle berry Subject: ...assuming that all 400 enroll... ...an unlikely scenario. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192234) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 1:44 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Generally speaking, the waitlist admit rate at the back end, like binding ED at the front end, has a yield rate approaching 100%.
Some admissions people have joked that the ideal process would be to admit the entire class from the waitlist .... exactly the demographics you want, and a 100% yield rate! |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 2:08 PM Author: Dull slippery dingle berry highly desirable schools (perhaps HYPS) could try this. exploding admissions, i believe they call it.
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:17 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: The equivalent to that ... yes. The "Little Ivies" (or some of them) used to use "exploding admissions" as an ED variation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192815) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:07 PM Author: gold telephone church building "Some admissions people have joked that the ideal process would be to admit the entire class from the waitlist .... exactly the demographics you want, and a 100% yield rate!"
Rapelye's professed strategy once ED is gone from Princeton.
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:18 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: But she said she was only joking ... I think! Like what Richard Nixon said when the Watergate scheme was laid out to him: "It could be done ... but it would be wrong!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192823) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:20 PM Author: gold telephone church building No, she didn't. She was being serious, if Pton's yield was hit really hard in RD. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8192831) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:34 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: Princeton will do fine in RD. What I would expect to see is greatly expanded use of the "likely letter" device. That - together with a financial aid program expanded beyond the current generous level - should suffice, even if the yield rate is off somewhat.
I'd expect to see the same approach at Harvard.
What we will have next year - IMHO - is an escallating financial aid war. If Yale and Stanford are salivating about all the "poaching" they'll be able to do, they should realize their success will come at a heavy price. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 2:00 PM Author: Talented Talking Ticket Booth Headpube Subject: Northwestern's "After Christmas Day" sale NYCFan -- you raise a very good point about Northwestern's subterfuge to inflate its yield by accepting off the waitlist.
So the more selective institutions take who they want. Northwestern, rather than getting turned down, waits to see who the other schools (Stanford, Penn, Duke, Cornell, Darmouth, Georgetown etc.) pass on, and then swoop in and pick those still interested and stay on the waitlist (presumably away from Michigan, WUSTL, etc.)
It's sort of like an "After Christmas" sale. There may be some bargains in the returns bin...unfortunately with the potential to compromise the quality of the freshman class if some would-be admits fall in love with another admitted school |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:26 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: I didn't say it was "subterfuge" But proper use of the waitlist CAN raise the yield rate.
Another technique increasing in popularity among "enrollment management" types is to admit the "ED-deferreds" at a higher rate than the "ordinary" RD applicants. The deferred group can generally be counted on to matriculate at a far high rate - particularly if you canvas them in advance to see if they are "still interested." |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:04 PM Author: Talented Talking Ticket Booth Headpube Isn't there supposedly some "code of conduct" among admissions officers at top schools to refrain from these "nod nod wink wink" strategies? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194340) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 9:21 PM Author: buff roommate goal in life Northwestern and Georgetown are not peer schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8194407) |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 2:58 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake "schools that bundle admits into non-core programs as front-door yield statistics (i.e., Cornell's state school colleges, Penn's nursing school)"
Penn's nursing school has an entering class of about 125 out of a total Penn entering class of 2400--not exactly a major yield booster. Also, the nursing school is very much a part of the undergraduate student body at Penn, with nursing students taking many--if not most--of their courses in the other undergraduate schools. It's not segregated off in the hospital somewhere like a 2-year LPN program. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:29 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: Oh, come come: In Penn's case, the other schools are hitched to the Wharton wagon.
And what "2-year LPN program" are you talking about? |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:47 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake I was drawing a contrast between Penn's nursing school, which is fully integrated into the Penn undergraduate experience (same dorms, eating halls, extracurriculars, many of the same classes, etc.), and a vocationally oriented 2-year LPN program that's based exclusively in a hospital and involves no liberal arts classes, etc.
And regarding the other schools being "hitched" to Wharton, once again, the actual numbers belie this statement. For 2010, 2,261 students were admitted to the College, 775 to Engineering, 475 to Wharton and 112 to Nursing.
http://www.ivysuccess.com/upenn_2010.html
While Wharton no doubt leads the total yield curve (perhaps along with Nursing), it's total number just isn't large enough to dominate as much as you imply.
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Date: May 31st, 2007 3:53 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre Subject: Again: Where is this "2-yr LPN program" which is not "fully integrated into the undergraduate experience" to which you make dark reference? Columbia? Yale? Cornell?
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Date: May 31st, 2007 4:05 PM Author: judgmental psychic corn cake Isn't it a bit late in your career to be looking into 2-yr LPN programs?
Levity aside, however, I wasn't talking about a specific 2-yr LPN program. I was drawing a contrast to nycmd's assertion above that Penn uses its nursing school to "bundle admits into non-core programs as front-door yield statistics." I.e., Penn's nursing school is fully integrated into its 4-year undergraduate experience, and is not a "non-core" vocational 2-yr LPN program sequestered away in the hospital and having nothing to do with Penn's 4-yr undergraduate program. |
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Date: May 31st, 2007 5:26 PM Author: histrionic salmon theatre I guess my question should have been directed to nycmd, then. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=638478&forum_id=2#8193446) |