JAWS (average of total WAR and peak 7-year WAR) has the two effectively tied at #9 best pitcher of all time. Only two postwar pitchers above them are Rocket and (barely) Seaver.

fWAR ranks them even higher at #4 and #5.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642089)

Maddux on a normal day > Johnson on a normal day

For one game you'd want Johnson and that makes him the better in my mind imo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642053)

For an owner: the production of value

Between the Mariners and Braves fan bases, who loves Johnson or Maddux more? Braves love their guy more.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642225)

Maddux posted his peak WAR years from 92-98, throwing more innings while age 26-32 and also got 9+ WAR twice. But then he was a reliable 4 ERA pitcher for another decade, throwing 200+ most years and only fewer than 100 innings in his final three years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642449)

"He led the league in strikeouts in every full season he pitched but one from 1992 to 2004. The one full season he pitched when he did not lead the league in strikeouts? That was 1997. He struck out 291. Roger Clemens struck out 292.

From 1999 to 2002, four seasons, he left the known universe. He went 81-27 with a 2.48 ERA, a 187 ERA+, and he averaged — averaged — 354 strikeouts per season. He won all four Cy Youngs, carried the Arizona Diamondbacks to a World Series title and was named Sports Illustrated’s co-Sportsperson of the Year along with his teammate Curt Schilling.

He did all this from ages 35-38. It’s the greatest four-year run for any late-30s pitcher ever."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642491)

I instinctively thought the same, but Johnson's numbers are really, really good. Better winning pct, better ERA+, way more strikeouts, slightly less WAR but slightly more WAA, one more CYA.

I think you can go either way, but I was surprised at how good Johnson's numbers were in retrospect.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642119)

Also, Maddux did 7 with Chicago then 11 with the Braves before becoming a journey man, while Randy Johnson really only had 8 with Seattle and then was a hired gun who was hit or miss some seasons. I say this as an Astros fan who saw Randy Johnson in his best season of all time, but it was only that one year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642160)

Maddux was dominant early on and then sort of hung around for a bunch of years in his mid-late thirties.

Johnson never really figured it out in his 20s and became dominant in his mid thirties.

Maddux is remembered as a mediocre playoff pitcher, but his ERA is actually lower than Johnson's in the post season.

Maddux's best seasons seem more spectacular than Johnson's, but Johnson's best seasons actually ahve a higher WAR...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642130)

Led the league in ERA four times.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642219)

He was still good in his 20s, but got great from 1997-2005. What was it about that era and what changed in 2005? Oh, baseball started steroid testing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642285)

But Maddux's peak was more in line with typical aging patterns and RJ has made statements along the lines of he was trying different stuff but never tested positive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642396)

“We might have to call an ambulance for the first-base coach,” Maddux said.

On the next pitch, Hernandez ripped a foul ball that hit Dodgers first-base coach John Shelby in the chest.

Hall of Famer John Smoltz said there were four occasions one season when Maddux, sitting in the dugout, said: “This guy is about to hit a foul ball in here.” Three times, the hitter did just that.

Hall of Fame manager Bobby Cox once visited the mound to suggest an intentional walk. According to Cox, Maddux ticked off the next three pitches he would throw and then said: “And on the last one, I'm going to get him to pop up foul to third base."

You can guess the rest.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642131)

he was more of a hurler early on, then he realized the game was about placing pitches and changing speed--not throwing it as hard as you can

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642162)

25 year old guys blowing their arm out because they need to throw 99

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642220)

Maddux's absolute prime also kind of got fucked by the strike:

1994: 25 starts, 202.0 IP (8.08 IP/G) 10CG 3 SHO, 1.56 ERA 8.5 bWAR

1995: 28 starts, 1.63 ERA 209.2 IP 10 cg, 3 sho 9.7 bWAR

His absolute peak is definitely underrated b/c of this

I'd say for longevity, it's Maddux

For the best absolute prime ~4-5 years I'd say it's the Big Unit by a hair just b/c of the time he blew up that bird too

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642444)

You fear the really huge, really ugly guy with occasional control issues who flings sidearm fastballs at 102mph and who may resent that your face is too pretty and decide to explode the soft tissue of it like he did to that dove.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44642817)

He basically never walked anyone. I believe he has the second lowest career walk rate during the live ball, and during his peak, there were a couple seasons where he came close to having more wins than walks, which is completely insane. (And of the walks he did issue, a shockingly high percentage of them were intentional.) No, when you were batting against Maddux, you weren't worried that he would destroy your face the day Johnson destroyed that bird. But I think there also has to be a certain intimidation factor basically knowing that he was not going to walk you and the only way to get on base is to swing the bat.

It's also worth pointing out that he was an 18-time Gold Glove winner, which I believe is still an all-time MLB record. I think part of the reason his pitching numbers were so good wasn't just because he was a great pitcher but also because he was an elite defender once the ball was in play. I don't know if the advanced pitching statistics consider his contributions with his glove in addition to his arm. If not, that gives some additional points to Maddux.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44643357)

(and even more so for Glavine lmao)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2)#44644046)