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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
glassy locale
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
arousing tripping business firm
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
arousing tripping business firm
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Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obs...
irate violent address faggot firefighter
  07/12/26
cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though ...
arousing tripping business firm
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nyuug
  08/10/26
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nyuug
  08/12/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
Outnumbered dilemma
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
Topaz casino friendly grandma
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
Outnumbered dilemma
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
Topaz casino friendly grandma
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
Outnumbered dilemma
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
soul-stirring trust fund
  07/01/25
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Aromatic brass shitlib
  07/13/25
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Odious den
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
Comical buff spot dopamine
  05/29/25
cq
dull location sound barrier
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
Thriller drab pistol
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
soul-stirring trust fund
  07/02/25
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histrionic site
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
fragrant puppy
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Zombie-like bearded set mother
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
Disturbing deep party of the first part
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
motley stead
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
abnormal abode
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
motley stead
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
Disturbing deep party of the first part
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
titillating indian lodge pocket flask
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
titillating indian lodge pocket flask
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: glassy locale

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49995176)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:04 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49995527)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:18 PM
Author: irate violent address faggot firefighter

Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whites?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49995563)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:21 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm

cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though for sure

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49995567)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2026 5:50 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49997293)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 19th, 2026 9:36 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#50011037)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2026 9:58 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#50046030)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 5th, 2026 5:46 PM
Author: arousing tripping business firm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#50047618)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2026 9:45 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#50059618)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 12th, 2026 11:22 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#50064912)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: Outnumbered dilemma

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: Topaz casino friendly grandma

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: Outnumbered dilemma

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: Topaz casino friendly grandma

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48969954)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: Outnumbered dilemma

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48971066)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: soul-stirring trust fund

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49065184)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: Aromatic brass shitlib



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49098592)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Odious den



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49098608)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: Comical buff spot dopamine

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48970037)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: dull location sound barrier

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: Thriller drab pistol

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: soul-stirring trust fund

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: histrionic site



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: fragrant puppy

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Zombie-like bearded set mother

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: Disturbing deep party of the first part

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: motley stead

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: abnormal abode

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: motley stead

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: Disturbing deep party of the first part

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: titillating indian lodge pocket flask

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: titillating indian lodge pocket flask

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2:#49838410)