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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
chestnut wild useless brakes piazza
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
Misanthropic senate
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
Misanthropic senate
  05/29/25
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Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obs...
soul-stirring resort degenerate
  07/12/26
cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though ...
Misanthropic senate
  07/12/26
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nyuug
  08/10/26
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nyuug
  08/12/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
at-the-ready rose quadroon
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
thriller striped hyena
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
at-the-ready rose quadroon
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
thriller striped hyena
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
at-the-ready rose quadroon
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
doobsian floppy parlour
  07/01/25
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topaz provocative parlor half-breed
  07/13/25
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Swashbuckling ticket booth scourge upon the earth
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
concupiscible bbw
  05/29/25
cq
blue set pisswyrm
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
dead turdskin
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
doobsian floppy parlour
  07/02/25
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Wonderful Disrespectful Stage
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
Vibrant crystalline boistinker
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Mildly autistic dingle berry private investor
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
vivacious gaping newt
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
fragrant macaca haunted graveyard
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
Buff voyeur church
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
fragrant macaca haunted graveyard
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
vivacious gaping newt
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
Big Copper Spot
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
Big Copper Spot
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: chestnut wild useless brakes piazza

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49995176)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:04 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49995527)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:18 PM
Author: soul-stirring resort degenerate

Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whites?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49995563)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:21 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate

cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though for sure

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49995567)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2026 5:50 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49997293)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 19th, 2026 9:36 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#50011037)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2026 9:58 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#50046030)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 5th, 2026 5:46 PM
Author: Misanthropic senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#50047618)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2026 9:45 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#50059618)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 12th, 2026 11:22 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#50064912)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: at-the-ready rose quadroon

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: thriller striped hyena

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969860)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: at-the-ready rose quadroon

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969863)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: thriller striped hyena

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48969954)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: at-the-ready rose quadroon

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48971066)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: doobsian floppy parlour

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49065184)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: topaz provocative parlor half-breed



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49098592)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Swashbuckling ticket booth scourge upon the earth



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49098608)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: concupiscible bbw

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48970037)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: blue set pisswyrm

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: dead turdskin

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: doobsian floppy parlour

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: Wonderful Disrespectful Stage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: Vibrant crystalline boistinker

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Mildly autistic dingle berry private investor

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: vivacious gaping newt

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: fragrant macaca haunted graveyard

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: Buff voyeur church

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: fragrant macaca haunted graveyard

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: vivacious gaping newt

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Big Copper Spot

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Big Copper Spot

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2~#49838410)