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3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:04 AM Author: Vermilion mad cow disease step-uncle's house I'm going to put the TL;DR first. If you want more details, scroll down:
Here's the TL;DR: I'm a 3L at Ohio State with decent grades. I didn't get an offer last summer, the job search has been impossible and miserable thus far, and I'm tired of it. So I'm strongly considering San Francisco. I'm posting here for people to say, "Fuck it, I agree with you, might as well try given how bad the Ohio market is," or, "You're out of your god damned mind."
Here's more details: -From Ohio. Family in Ohio. Undergrad at Ohio State. -Currently a 3L at Ohio State with decently solid grades (not quite top 10% material, but very respectable). -Probably going to graduate with $110k debt (law school plus undergrad) -Published on Business Law Journal, currently Note Editor. -Summered at a firm in Akron, where only one out of five SAs got offers (I was obviously not one). This has made getting interviews very difficult (hard to explain why I didn't get an offer without getting an interview). -No luck at 3L OCI, either. -I've sent out 109 applications to Ohio firms, got one interview, and it sucked (the guy asked me some dumb question about mountain climbing). -I'm tired of all this bullshit. -I love San Francisco. Probably my favorite city in the US. Just visited there again this past weekend. Had lunch and phone conversations with half a dozen alums. Going again in January. -Generally speaking, OSU alums in San Francisco have been incredibly helpful and receptive. Several have also made it sound like they would go to the plate for me to try and help out in any way possible. -One more alum thing: I had lunch with an OSU alum, and in short, he basically said that there are 2-3 extremely well established OSU grads out there who can make things happen in terms of getting me, at minimum, part time work while I search for full time employment. He did this (did doc review for about six months), networked, and got FT employment within a year. Anecdotal, of course, but that would be a career path I'd be willing to stomach. -All this is likely making me irrationally optimistic for the SF market. -I'm going to be in SF again in January to continue networking with alums. -Because of the seemingly impossible job chase in Ohio, fuck it, I really want to go out to The City and make a go of it.
So, have I lost my mind, or should I actually start signing up to take the California bar?
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:05 AM Author: frum milk Please don't ever refer to frisco as "The City" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237189) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:06 AM Author: Infuriating tantric space internal respiration Yfwgi (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237191) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:49 AM Author: appetizing maize corn cake (guy who refers to San Francisco as "frisco") (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296372) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:58 AM Author: brilliant thriller stag film pocket flask only outdone by those that call it "san fran" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296405) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 9:34 AM Author: frum milk fuck that shithole (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24297123) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:07 AM Author: cobalt goal in life www.top-law-schools.com (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237198) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 6:51 PM Author: arousing field why not xo? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24240098) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:10 AM Author: Buck-toothed indirect expression SF is probably the most competitive major Biglaw market. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237204) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:49 AM Author: flickering stain IF YOU'RE GOING TO SAAAAAAN FRAAAAAAAAN CISCOOOOOOO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237344) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:56 AM Author: Onyx Station Hairy Legs absolutely zero shot unless these "well-connected alums" actually do have a full-time job waiting for you. not "possibly maybe ten months from now" - waiting for you. you can slum in c-bus or cleveland while you look for an Ohio job. how do you plan to just hang out unemployed paying rent in one of the three most expensive cities in the country?
i know top third T14ers that struck out in SF/SV. "decent grades" at osu isn't going to cut it. |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:57 AM Author: 180 business firm I really, really hope this is flame that you put way too much time into. If not, I wouldn't waste your time. If you can't get a job in Ohio out of Ohio State then you're utterly screwed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237404) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 10:58 AM Author: boyish center doctorate No chance coming from tttOSU unless an alum hands you a job (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24237407) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 11:46 AM Author: adulterous weed whacker There are more jobs there than in Ohio, which is probably the only positive for you. There are also far, far more (and far better credentialed) law students trying to get a job out here. You're top of the market in Ohio, except for a few stray Michigan people.
There are honestly still people who are unemployed and doing contract doc review bullshit since they were laid off in 2008-2010, and these are not OSU grads. |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 1:40 PM Author: slate parlour This will be very difficult. But hell, no reason not to try...although I might just ditch law and go into tech. Tons of tech jobs out here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238102) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 1:53 PM Author: bright dysfunction Sounds like you've made your decision dawg. Don't listen to all these negative nancys - if youre smart enough to do asskissing networking lunches with 6 separate people out there, youll get a job sooner or later, and even if the job sucks youll at least be in a city youre excited about. don't be a pussy, just go. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238205) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 2:01 PM Author: Vermilion mad cow disease step-uncle's house Thanks, man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238259) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 2:20 PM Author: peach ticket booth lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238352) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 3:10 PM Author: Pea-brained multi-colored indian lodge mother Completely anecdotal, but I know a dude who was around median at a top-40 school (ranked slightly below OSU) who found some type of paying work in the Bay Area. (Not SF. Think a TTT part of the Bay Area like Concord or Richmond.) I don't know the details of the job, but I think it's safe to say it's pretty shitty. It's definitely a shitlaw job, and I don't know how much he's getting paid or if he is getting benefits or anything. His wife has a good job in the Bay Area and he doesn't have much debt so he isn't starving, but he definitely isn't balling by any means.
So can you find a job there? Probably if you hustle enough. Will it be enough to pay your bills? That gets quite a bit dicier. You would probably have to PAYE and live in a ghetto apartment with multiple roommates in a TTT area. (I doubt you'd be able to afford living in the city unless you lived in Hunter's Point or some other area where any white dude may as well draw a target on his back. But you could find an apartment in a TTT suburb and commute.) But if it's worth it to you to live in SF, it's not totally insane. Just don't have any delusions of living in a nice part of SF with models and bottles. |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 3:13 PM Author: Vermilion mad cow disease step-uncle's house Thanks, bro. I think I'll crush it there and work my way up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238696) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 3:16 PM Author: azure ratface sound barrier (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24238723) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 6:41 PM Author: glittery stage puppy Do not listen to these risk averse pussies. First of all, most of what they're saying only applies to biglaw, and as you've struck out at 3L OCI, you already know you're not getting that. If you stay in Ohio, you'll probably be dealing with a much worse job market, but more importantly, living your whole life in Ohio would really suck.
I graduated from a similarly ranked state flagship and moved to NYC with no job prospects, no place lined up, and hardly knowing anyone. Before I had my bar results, I had locked down a solid job in one of the few more sophisticated areas of small firm practice, and while it wasn't biglaw money, it was more than enough to live on, the hours were tolerable, and I actually got to do stuff. At this point, I could probably stick around a few more years and make partner if I wanted, but instead, I'm starting my own shop.
Based on your stats, you're near the top of the 90% of law grads that didn't get plucked for biglaw, and you won't have much trouble finding a tolerable small firm job in a big market like SF. You won't make half a biglaw salary, but your life will be a lot better. I say move to SF and never look back.
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Date: October 15th, 2013 8:21 PM Author: Mischievous Community Account nice dig with the top 90% comment (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24240743) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 8:22 PM Author: Vermilion mad cow disease step-uncle's house Thanks, bro. This is solid wisdom. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24240760) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 8:27 PM Author: Diverse Mental Disorder Trailer Park So your solution is moving to a much more expensive market with no job prospects in a city that has like 10 law schools in the area filled with TTT students gunning since 2L for jobs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24240786) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 9:03 PM Author: glittery stage puppy He has no job prospects in Ohio either, and the market for new law grads is difficult everywhere. However, big cities like NYC and SF are fairly meritocratic, and most of the people that had better stats than him would have already gotten jobs and would not be competing against him. Even the majority of people graduating from truly shitty schools without distinguishing themselves will eventually be absorbed, even if they're doing slip and falls or commercial collections or something like that.
Life is a marathon. It's going to be hard wherever he goes initially, but once he gets that first job and actually learns to practice, the employment picture gets much better. The cost of living situation is definitely a concern, but he could get a room in Oakland off of Craigslist on the cheap, and he has to eat wherever he is. SF has a better economy than most of the country, and he could potentially do doc review, tutor LSAT, wait tables or whatever while he waits for his admission. He can't plan the rest of his life over a short term, risk averse calculation that would leave him wondering for the rest of his life what it might have been like if he had manned up and tried his luck in the big city. |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 12:19 AM Author: Domesticated honey-headed laser beams This is basically the story of every single "actor" who moves to Hollywood. #noregrets! #yolo!!
It's fine to not be risk-averse and wait tables or whatever, but he should take a minute to think that he is leaving for an incredibly competitive market where the rent is the highest in the country.
Also, "However, big cities like NYC and SF are fairly meritocratic, and most of the people that had better stats than him would have already gotten jobs and would not be competing against him" is simply not true. It should come as no surprise that there are plenty of Boalttt/Hastttings grads who have not found jobs. |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:25 AM Author: Histrionic puce pisswyrm tanning salon Not to mention golden gate and Usf and Santa Clara and uc Davis and mcgeorge grads. The bay has a million students. Top 15% at golden gate looks better than top 15% at OSU in the bay man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296274) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:36 PM Author: glittery stage puppy USF, Golden Gate, McGeorge, and even Davis and Hastings are ranked below OSU. I'm sure a comparably ranked Hastings or Davis grad would have some edge, but not a vast one. If you strike out at 3L OCI, you have to hustle for a job on your own, and Career Services / alumni networks will only be of limited use.
The thing about big cities is they're just more liquid, more buyers and more sellers of everything, so if you're willing to sell yourself below market value, you can find a buyer more quickly than in a less liquid market. It may be insurance defense or something similarly unpalatable, but after you get a couple years of experience, you become more marketable to other small firms. If all else fails, he could hang a shingle doing bankruptcies, misdemeanor defense, immigration or something else where the clients are poor and cost is their main concern.
If this dude passes the bar, and finds himself a $600 room w/ roommates in Oakland, he'll be fine so long as he has about $10k in cash or credit to burn through while he's looking. He's going to be facing a similarly tough economy whether he stays in Ohio or moves to SF, and if he doesn't want to live his entire life in Ohio, he should get out now while he can. |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 9:04 PM Author: out-of-control temple knife If you move to SF you will NEVER own property (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24241022) |
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Date: October 15th, 2013 9:07 PM Author: razzle-dazzle house Clear flame. If not, stay in Ohio. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24241043) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:52 AM Author: Comical garrison another cp from TLS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296384) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 1:56 AM Author: Medicated Halford Fortuitous Meteor Enjoy paying $2500/month for a studio. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296397) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 2:03 AM Author: Laughsome sadistic area black woman as someone who's been everywhere in this country and spent lots of time in SF I'll volunteer - SF really is a disaster.
if you're gay, it might be a good place for you. otherwise, it's a shithole in decline and you should avoid. |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 2:05 AM Author: Medicated Halford Fortuitous Meteor It looks like a mess even if you are gay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296419) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 2:05 AM Author: aromatic codepig generalized bond if you went to ohio state, you have a far better chance of copping a job in columbus. also, you can get rent for ~400 in columbus vs. 2400 in SF. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24296421) |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 2:06 AM Author: Racy hot electric furnace public bath good news, bro! it looks like there are positions open!
http://www.mofocareers.com/ |
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Date: October 24th, 2013 9:38 AM Author: hilarious wagecucks oh god. this is almost worse than the K&E video. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2387919&forum_id=2#24297129) |